General Poker Thread

[Emmet]

line check 2

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($17.10)
Button ($19.70)
Hero (SB) ($28.45)
BB ($21.83)
UTG ($24.34)
MP ($16.65)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 10, A
1 fold, MP bets $1, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, Hero calls $0.90, 1 fold

Flop: ($4.20) 5, Q, 3 (4 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $4.20, CO calls $4.20, 1 fold, Hero raises $27.45 (All-In), MP calls $11.45 (All-In), CO calls $11.90 (All-In)

Turn: ($52.05) 5 (3 players, 3 all-in)

River: ($52.05) Q (3 players, 3 all-in)

Total pot: $52.05

[bp_me]

Why shove the flop in the second one instead of seeing the turn and re-evaluating.

How has MP been playing? 5x pre seems a lot too much especially at a 6 max table?

[Emmet]

MP is bad, 65/45 over 60 hands, overvalues big hands, and wont let go of them.

CO is pretty decent, 20/19 over 50 hands, hasn't shown down yet though, very passive postflop.

I shove because there's no way either of them can fold now. If I call the pot will be 80bbs on the turn, so I will be c/f on a lot of non heart turns as one of them will have to shove.

Ranges for MP are 77-AA, AJ+ with flop C-bet. Co is the one I'm a bit worried about here, fairly certain I've to hit my flush to beat him.

The other line of Check call / check fold seemed like a bad idea considering the size of the pot already, and the possibility of having a tiny tiny bit of fold equity also.

[Keane]

FWIW I don't think you have any gold equity whatsoever in that hand.

From your descriptions of the villains the good player is likely to have something he won't like letting go of, and the bad player will call you with any old muck.

Don't think the shove was good therefore obv.

But I'm terrible so...

[Emmet]

yeah, I didn't think anyone was folding, but the pot would've been 16 on the turn with effective stacks at 12. Heart hits ~ 1/4 times, so 3/4 times I c/f. Action given means the money is almost certainly going in on the turn regardless.

Hmm, this is making me come around to the c/c line.

[Keane]

yeah, I didn't think anyone was folding, but the pot would've been 16 on the turn with effective stacks at 12. Heart hits ~ 1/4 times, so 3/4 times I c/f. Action given means the money is almost certainly going in on the turn regardless.

Hmm, this is making me come around to the c/c line.

Like, you don't have to get it all in just cos you have a flush draw do you?

[shano_88]

I just get it in and embrace the variance. I really dont like flat calling and folding the turn if we miss. Our hand is too strong.

[Emmet]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

650,160 games 0.042 secs 15,479,999 games/sec

Board: Qh 5h 3d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.718% 36.58% 00.14% 237812 914.50 { AhTh }
Hand 1: 37.845% 35.14% 02.71% 228459 17592.00 { 55, 33, KQs, QcJc, QdJd, QsJs, 7h6h, KQo }
Hand 2: 25.437% 22.59% 02.85% 146876 18506.50 { TT+, AcQc, AdQd, AsQs, KcQc, KdQd, KsQs, AQo, KQo }


---
I reckon that's a pretty fair estimate of the ranges.

My shove is for 15 to win 27*, obviously there is some fold equity with the given ranges though not in the hand above. Surely this is profitable? Is it more profitable to c/c though?

(*very open to correction here)

[Keane]

Fair enough.

So nut flush draw on the flop is something of a monster...who knew!

[Guest]

Way too much in the middle to do anything but ship.

[TheImprover]

I don't think i am ever shoving here, how bad it sounds i flat call and probably fold if i miss especially when you are so deep, you are getting 3/1 to hit you're draw, what is the history on the villains?, what is the c/o calling with? could he be on a draw also? All depends on history, they have about 25% put in, are they capable of folding the likes of 10,Q J,Q etc. Alot depends on history on villains.



Pm me for very good deals on Irisheyespoker

[shano_88]

I don't think i am ever shoving here, how bad it sounds i flat call and probably fold if i miss especially when you are so deep, you are getting 3/1 to hit you're draw, what is the history on the villains?, what is the c/o calling with? could he be on a draw also? All depends on history, they have about 25% put in, are they capable of folding the likes of 10,Q J,Q etc. Alot depends on history on villains.



Pm me for very good deals on Irisheyespoker

Were not deep at all. I think calling is really bad tbh.

[BlindLimper]

MP is bad, 65/45 over 60 hands, overvalues big hands, and wont let go of them.

CO is pretty decent, 20/19 over 50 hands, hasn't shown down yet though, very passive postflop.

I shove because there's no way either of them can fold now. If I call the pot will be 80bbs on the turn, so I will be c/f on a lot of non heart turns as one of them will have to shove.

Ranges for MP are 77-AA, AJ+ with flop C-bet. Co is the one I'm a bit worried about here, fairly certain I've to hit my flush to beat him.

The other line of Check call / check fold seemed like a bad idea considering the size of the pot already, and the possibility of having a tiny tiny bit of fold equity also.

Emmet your thinking here seems to be a bit off. You shouldn't be shoving because you think neither of them will ever fold. You should be shoving when you think they will fold a decent amount. You pick up the pot in these situations and when called still have decent equity against their continuing ranges. Some people might advocate a call here as there are lower flush draws and TP hands that the poorer player will pay you off on when the heart hits. Their stack sizes make it a bit akward too as you have less fold equity on the flop than you would normally have. Would be interested to hear others thoughts. I would probably shove here fwiw.

[Emmet]

I pretty much shoved because the other two options kind of sucked.

What I mean by neither of them folds, both of them are pot committed, meaning that they will be forced to call the shove with weaker queens than just TPTK and also smaller draws. I am aware that I don't win the pot every time, but the amount of times that I do, make it a profitable play considering the amount of dead money in there.

I understand that CRAI with nfd isn't optimal in a HU situation when you know you're getting called by a pair, as you need FE for that to be a better move. But with both players in the pot, I feel that calling, and c/f a brick turn is a waste of time, and folding is nonsense. So Shove > Call > Fold.

[RoadSweeper]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq8eRYvAPvU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq8eRYvAPvU[/ame]

[Sledgejammer]

So sick the times he flips KJ and scoops the pot

[shano_88]

Villian is playing 10/8 after like 50 hands. Whats your line here?


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($50.05)
Hero (SB) ($27.58)
BB ($26.56)
UTG ($32.98)
MP ($32.66)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, 10
2 folds, Button bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.75, BB calls $2.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($6.25) 9, 8, 4 (2 players)
Hero?

[bp_me]

Villian is playing 10/8 after like 50 hands. Whats your line here?


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($50.05)
Hero (SB) ($27.58)
BB ($26.56)
UTG ($32.98)
MP ($32.66)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, 10
2 folds, Button bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.75, BB calls $2.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($6.25) 9, 8, 4 (2 players)
Hero?

I flat/fold (If being especially nitty) pre. Check call now.

[tipp86]

I flat/fold (If being especially nitty) pre. Check call now.

3 bet is fine imo.

I would cbet it i guess may even fire 2 barrels.

[Emmet]

3 bet is fine imo.

I would cbet it i guess may even fire 2 barrels.

why?

what hands does this guy have right now? And how many are folding to one barrel? And how many are folding to 2 barrels?

What do you do when you get raised when you cbet?

I much prefer a C/C here, as chances are, you will be fully paid if we hit either of our gin cards.

AK and AQ are pretty much the only hands in his entire range that are not calling to SD imo.

[Emmet]

Any opinions?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Hero (UTG) ($20)
MP ($22.34)
Button ($20.13)
SB ($20.10)
BB ($40.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, K
Hero bets $0.70, 2 folds, SB calls $0.60, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.60) K, K, 5 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.20, SB calls $1.20

Turn: ($4) 8 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($4) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $3, Hero raises $10, SB raises $15.20 (All-In), Hero calls $8.10 (All-In)

Total pot: $40.20

[TommyGunne]

Villian is playing 10/8 after like 50 hands. Whats your line here?


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($50.05)
Hero (SB) ($27.58)
BB ($26.56)
UTG ($32.98)
MP ($32.66)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, 10
2 folds, Button bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.75, BB calls $2.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($6.25) 9, 8, 4 (2 players)
Hero?

Strongly dislike the 3b. Obv bet now. Think anything else is bad.

Any opinions?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Hero (UTG) ($20)
MP ($22.34)
Button ($20.13)
SB ($20.10)
BB ($40.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, K
Hero bets $0.70, 2 folds, SB calls $0.60, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.60) K, K, 5 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.20, SB calls $1.20

Turn: ($4) 8 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($4) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $3, Hero raises $10, SB raises $15.20 (All-In), Hero calls $8.10 (All-In)

Total pot: $40.20

Bet the turn?

[Moneymaker]

Strongly dislike the 3b. Obv bet now. Think anything else is bad.

Why to both of these?

[Emmet]

Bet the turn?

do you not think he has more flushdraws than weaker kings in his range here though?

[bp_me]

This weeks COTW on 2+2 seems apt at the moment (note from full ring MSNL).

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/micro-stakes-full-ring/cotw-thinking-about-combos-885172/

[TommyGunne]

Why to both of these?

Well the flop one is easier to answer. Its clearly the best of the 4 options (cc, cr, cf, bf). Check/calling sucks pretty badly. We're not ahead of any of his betting range, and even when it gets checked back its not like its that good of a result. Checkraising is huge spew here. I think bet/folding is better than c/f, cos I think we do have a bit of FE, and we have enough equity to make it fine.

Preflop just isn't the kind of hand I'd like to 3bet here. Doesn't really accomplish anything.

do you not think he has more flushdraws than weaker kings in his range here though?

I think hands worse than Ks can call.

[shano_88]

Well the flop one is easier to answer. Its clearly the best of the 4 options (cc, cr, cf, bf). Check/calling sucks pretty badly. We're not ahead of any of his betting range, and even when it gets checked back its not like its that good of a result. Checkraising is huge spew here. I think bet/folding is better than c/f, cos I think we do have a bit of FE, and we have enough equity to make it fine.

Preflop just isn't the kind of hand I'd like to 3bet here. Doesn't really accomplish anything.



.

I dont see how you can say it doesnt achieve anything. BB is tight, btn is a late position stealer folding to 80% of 3bets. Would you prefer to flat?

[Guest]

btn is a late position stealer folding to 80% of 3bets.

Thats unpossible. If he's 10/8 after 50 hands then he's opened 4 times. So even to get 75% fold to 3b he'd have to have been 3b every time he opened so far.

If you just go with his stats which are the only read we have and assign him a narrow stealing range then he's only going to be folding maybe 60% of the time in this spot. The bet sizing in the HH makes no sense but you're usually risking 11 to win 4.5 meaning it needs to work 70% to be immediately profitable.

So the 3b itself in a vacuum is -EV and your left OOP against a very strong range with the type of hand that's crushed by his calling range.

fold>3b>call.

[shano_88]

You want to read the hh again Zuutroy?
Btn opens, Hero in the sb 3bets, BB flats and btn folds.

[Guest]

Ah yes my bad. TJo is still a bit of a gimpy hand to be 3b because things like ATs, AJs and JQs are in peoples 3b calling range ip vs active players.

[shano_88]

I think the 3bet is fine but see where your coming from obviously. I just dont really want to flat and play oop so i just prefer to 3bet and take it down most of the time.

Also, I only really posted the hand to see how you would play it postflop. BB range is obv very tight with alot of big pairs and maybe ak/aq. Whats your line here as i never see a cbet getting through.

[Guest]

I would assign a range of AQ-AK and TT+ here. Given you have blockers to TT and JJ and he would likely 4b AA and KK, you are left with:

3 combos of TT, 3 of JJ, 6 of QQ and lets give him 2 of AA,KK for deception.
Also 12 combos of AK and 12 combos of AQ.

Thats a total of 38 hand combos. Assume he folds all non pairs, that gives 24.

That means he's folding about 63% of the time so a half pot bet , even with no equity shows a big profit. Its not at all true to say a cbet never gets through.

[Opr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq8eRYvAPvU

Raise

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6-0iJOnH5I[/ame]

Opr

[Denny Crane]

when is the bonus on gjp paid out? thought it used to be the first tue of the month no?

[RoadSweeper]

Raise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6-0iJOnH5I

Opr

Strange hand. Do you think he publishes the vid the times yer man had QT ?


Also, and old one, but a cool hand.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUmEzjfJ-dk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUmEzjfJ-dk[/ame]

[Emmet]

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (4 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($148.80)
UTG ($862.14)
Hero (Button) ($152.50)
SB ($107.09)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7, J
UTG bets $1.75, Hero raises $5.50, 1 fold, BB calls $5, UTG calls $3.75

Flop: ($16.75) 6, 9, 2 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $8.50, BB raises $25.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $17

Turn: ($67.75) 8 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $121.50 (All-In)


Thoughts?

[Guest]

Don't bet flop for sure. Are you trying to get him to fold an overpair on the turn? Not the way to make money at 50nl imo.

[Emmet]

He never has an overpaid here. We're 300bbs deep. He 4bets 1010+ IMO. He really should only be calling with a set here, which we don't see very often if ever.

I think he has a lot of tp type hands and also some decent draws, all of which should fold to the shove.

When called, I have some outs in my gunshot and flush draws. I'm shoving here as he folds enough IMO to make it a good play, and we're not in horrific shape ~20% very worst case

[Guest]

lol I really shouldn't read HH's when just outta bed. Thought it was 200bb deep and didnt see OESD to go with FD. Can't imagine anyone cold 4-betting TT or JJ 300bb deep oop though. You have to ask what hands you're value shoving for 2x pot though. Super narrow range meaning he probably should look you up lighter than normal. Also I still don't bet flop.

[Bubbleking]

I dont think that your line or villains line makes any sense?? just a bit weird. I fold preflop too.

[Theresa]

Lol I'm still laughing that you actually shoved the turn! I wanted to see the big pot! Fun times!

In seriousness though, I defo defo bet flop. We are so deep and you've fairly decent equity while he has over cards which you wouldn't mind making fold way more often than an overpaid or better!

Edit: he never 4bet 1010 jj or qq here! Ever!

[Bubbleking]

Lol I'm still laughing that you actually shoved the turn! I wanted to see the big pot! Fun times!

In seriousness though, I defo defo bet flop. We are so deep and you've fairly decent equity while he has over cards which you wouldn't mind making fold way more often than an overpaid or better!

were you the villain? wtf hands do you raise the flop and check the turn with??

[Emmet]

were you the villain? wtf hands do you raise the flop and check the turn with??

Akdd aqdd for a start IMO

[Theresa]

His range is weak made one pair hands, some sets, overpairs excluding aa or kk, cho draws and bare flush draws!

[Emmet]

really enjoying this overbetting lark.

MP was 9/6 over 130 hands!

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($152.04)
Hero (SB) ($211.10)
BB ($182.49)
UTG ($157.24)
MP ($150)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3, 7
1 fold, MP bets $1.75, Button calls $1.75, Hero calls $1.50, BB calls $1.25

Flop: ($7) 9, K, 10 (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP bets $3.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $3.50, 1 fold

Turn: ($14) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks

River: ($14) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $19, MP calls $19

Total pot: $52

Results:
Hero had 3, 7 (flush, King high).
MP had J, J (straight, King high).
Outcome: Hero won $49.40

[Guest]

Pre is woeful. Fold that junk.

[Emmet]

300bbs deep, mtw pot, not a chance!

[TommyGunne]

really enjoying this overbetting lark.

MP was 9/6 over 130 hands!

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($152.04)
Hero (SB) ($211.10)
BB ($182.49)
UTG ($157.24)
MP ($150)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3, 7
1 fold, MP bets $1.75, Button calls $1.75, Hero calls $1.50, BB calls $1.25

Flop: ($7) 9, K, 10 (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP bets $3.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $3.50, 1 fold

Turn: ($14) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks

River: ($14) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $19, MP calls $19

Total pot: $52

Results:
Hero had 3, 7 (flush, King high).
MP had J, J (straight, King high).
Outcome: Hero won $49.40

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (SB) ($306.90)
BB ($89.80)
UTG ($205.70)
MP ($279.50)
Button ($199.45)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7, 7
2 folds, Button bets $6, Hero calls $5, 1 fold

Flop: ($14) 2, K, 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

Turn: ($14) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $11, Hero raises $37, Button calls $26

River: ($88) Q (2 players)
Hero bets $263.90 (All-In), Button calls $156.45 (All-In)

Total pot: $400.90

Results:
Button didn't show
Hero had 7, 7 (full house, sevens over twos).
Outcome: Hero won $505.35


He had 88 FWIW, and was a good reg. . I prefer my one

[Emmet]

Question - When a player Check Raises the flop on a hand where he was the pfr, what kind of hands does he have? Why doesn't he just lead out with them?

Bad Tag vs Bad Tag hypothetically

[Guest]

300bbs deep, mtw pot, not a chance!

Its a RIO hand which you're going to to being playing oop. Very difficult to turn a profit with.

[Emmet]

My fold to 3bet is tiny on these deep tables. Leak or ok? I'm undecided. But vs some opponents its good.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (3 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($150)
BB ($335.55)
Hero (Button) ($150)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6, 8
Hero bets $1, SB raises $5.25, 1 fold, Hero calls $4.50

Flop: ($11.50) 4, 7, 5 (2 players)
SB bets $8, Hero raises $26, SB calls $18

Turn: ($63.50) 5 (2 players)
SB bets $32, Hero calls $32

River: ($127.50) J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $86.50 (All-In), SB calls $86.50 (All-In)

Total pot: $300.50

Results:
Hero had 6, 8 (straight, eight high).
SB had 8, 5 (three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: Hero won $298.50

[Emmet]

Deepstack poker turning my month around, wish more tables ran though.

Quit after 5k hands for 4 days, playing only deepstack tables since...

[AndyFatBastard]

Where are you playing atm Emmett? Still on iPoker?

[Theresa]

My fold to 3bet is tiny on these deep tables. Leak or ok? I'm undecided. But vs some opponents its good.

Depends. Id call a lot of 3bets IP. The regs don't adjust to the deepness of the game for the most part and from my HEM all I can see is that any of them I've played against this deep have the same 3bet range as they would for normal 6 max so its easy to hand read. In fact, they have the same range in just about all spots preflop as far as I can tell (500 hands or so, tiny sample really).

The wont 4bet without KK or AA though.

They also spazz out something terrible in bvb situations.

[pgodkin]

I usually minbet open from the BTN and SB. Right or wrong thing to do?

I definitely would've sized it differently had it not been BvB

Usual opens
UTG - 4x
MP - 3.5x
Co - 3x
BTN - 2x
SB - 2x
BB - x

Open minraising on the button has meant I can open with any cards when it is folded to me, players at 50nl simply fold their blinds, and wait for a chance to play back against me. By opening to 3.5x on the button, it makes it incredibly profitable for a BB to 3bet my opens, and means I can't steal so much.

I'm definitely all ears though to something different, this is just something I've been trying and feel is working recently. The SB open may well need to be pumped up tho

37% steal, 47% steal success

just reading back on some of this thread and was wondering if anyone here like's standard bet size from all positions

my opening use to be 4bb UTG,MP,CO,BTN and 5BB in the Sb

i've changed it recently to 3BB in all postions and 4BB in the Sb

thoughts please????

thanks

[shano_88]

UTG: 3.5 bbs
MP-CO: 3 bbs
BU: 2.5bbs
SB: 4bbs


That would be my standard opens.

[pgodkin]

UTG: 3.5 bbs
MP-CO: 3 bbs
BU: 2.5bbs
SB: 4bbs


That would be my standard opens.

have you got a reason for this? just wondering is all

[Theresa]

My raises depend entirely on the opponents and situations!

I.e I'll min open into nits in the blinds! 4x or so into fish from the button!

Or min open into nits from sb!

I'll generally 3x to any liberal 3bettors or just nit steal as often!

[shano_88]

UTG: gives opponents less odds to call in position.
MP: Standard raise, gives you a good price on a steal and builds pots with value hands.
BU: I open smaller because Im in position for the rest of the hand. I can call 3bets lighter as the pot to stack ratio is going to be smaller giving you more room to float, etc.
SB: Again I dont want to be playing oop and i dont want my opponent to be able to call in position.

[Keane]

4x or so into fish from the button!

Isn't that the opposite of what you want?

Smaller pot:stack ratio in position FTW I would have thought...