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Was the river a bad call?

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    Was the river a bad call?

    Full Tilt Poker No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t120/t240 Blinds + t25 - 9 players

    BTN: t6120
    Hero (SB): t7470
    BB: t5805
    UTG: t11700
    UTG+1: t10455
    UTG+2: t3100
    MP1: t9517
    MP2: t9110
    CO: t5565

    Pre Flop: (t585) Hero is SB with 6 8
    2 folds, UTG+2 calls t240, 1 fold, MP2 calls t240, 2 folds, Hero calls t120, BB checks

    Flop: (t1185) A K 6 (4 players)
    Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets t240, Hero calls t240, BB folds, UTG+2 calls t240

    Turn: (t1905) 6 (3 players)
    Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets t1905, Hero calls t1905, UTG+2 folds

    River: (t5715) K (2 players)
    Hero checks, MP2 bets t6700 all in, Hero calls t5060 all in

    Final Pot: t15835
    SPOILER
    MP2 shows Q K (a full house, Kings full of Sixes)MP2 wins t15835


    EDIT: I was thinking of raising the turn but I thought he was betting out a flushdraw the way it played out & wanted to see did it hit before getting it all in or not
    Last edited by Donkathon; 26-02-11, 00:23.

    #2
    Fold pre and flop imo.

    Def raising the turn for value.

    I fold river fwiw aswell.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
      Fold pre and flop imo.

      Def raising the turn for value.

      I fold river fwiw aswell.
      Fold the small blind getting over 8.5/1 on a limp?

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Baked Beans View Post
        Fold the small blind getting over 8.5/1 on a limp?
        Im folding here pre always regardless what odds im getting. 6-8 offsuit is rags.

        The line the villain played you need to be almost certain he has a king so im folding the flop also. you only have bottom pair and shit kicker.

        If he doesnt have a king, he played it very well. By the river im almost certain im beat though so im folding.

        I think thats the problem with rags especially offsuit cards, they get you stuck in these horrible spots a lot.
        Just my two cents.
        Last edited by A_CitizenErased; 26-02-11, 01:07.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
          Fold pre and flop imo.

          Def raising the turn for value.

          I fold river fwiw aswell.
          +1

          Comment


            #6
            Bit of a weird line betting pot on the turn if he had a king, like he is never getting an ace to fold so for this reason i prob call the river. But they always seem to have it on the river here when i call.

            Comment


              #7
              I'm almost always calling pre here.
              I'm prob just going to ship the turn but as played easy enough fold on the river.
              We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is not an act, but a habit.

              Comment


                #8
                Call pre
                Fold flop
                Shove turn
                Call river

                Simple hand imo, you shuould really have folded your bottom pair on the flop like you very rarely get a good card for your hand and your in no mans land for the rest of the hand. When you hit your 3rd 6 here you should have stuck him all in especially seen as you thought he might have flush draw betting so much, I think he is pot committed with any ace so just shove.
                Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                Comment


                  #9
                  Pre is very poor, shameful to be honest. You have 68 offsuit. Absolute garbage. Flop is disgustingly bad. Turn is fine. River is prob ok cos he shouldn't have a K very often and he shouldn't be potting Ax much, apart from maybe AK, but I don't think he plays AK like that on flop or pre.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Fold flop, call turn, snap call river.

                    Why is the result of the hand in OP? Makes no sense and it's pretty obvious that some replies have been based on it.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                      you should have stuck him all in
                      That would be a neat trick. Especially online.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by cardshark202 View Post
                        Pre is very poor, shameful to be honest. You have 68 offsuit. Absolute garbage. Flop is disgustingly bad. Turn is fine. River is prob ok cos he shouldn't have a K very often and he shouldn't be potting Ax much, apart from maybe AK, but I don't think he plays AK like that on flop or pre.

                        Comment


                          #13

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                            are you confused?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              just a tad. 'disgustingly bad' call to complete. IGIVE UP ,

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                just a tad. 'disgustingly bad' call to complete. IGIVE UP ,
                                that was quick. giving up before anything started!

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  make sense. i eagerly await

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Baked Beans View Post
                                    Fold the small blind getting over 8.5/1 on a limp?
                                    OOP with a hand where your probably going to have to flop two pair to continue.Why you called the flop bet is beyond me tbh? You're just bleeding chips away chasing a miracle and when it comes and he overbets the turn you don't raise?

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                      make sense. i eagerly await
                                      what didn't make sense?

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        I don't see any problem with pre.
                                        Blinds + antes = 585 pre, two limpers = another 480.
                                        120 to call into a pot of 1065 with connectors. Admitedly they aren't great, but the price is too good for me to pass up.

                                        The flop is not great, but then again, hero is offered 6:1 on the call. It's not the end of the universe, although it is also not great.

                                        The key problem for me is the turn, c/c pot on the turn you wanted is madness. You should probably bet/shove there, rather than chk/call. If you do chk, you should check raise all in.

                                        I think I can fold the river - but I don't know much about tourneys.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Any reasoning as to why you put him on a flushdraw? An overbet on the turn isn't a flush draw ever IMO. I think he puts you on a flushdraw so that's why I would always raise the turn here and try and play for stacks.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by fuzzbox View Post
                                            I don't see any problem with pre.
                                            Blinds + antes = 585 pre, two limpers = another 480.
                                            120 to call into a pot of 1065 with connectors. Admitedly they aren't great, but the price is too good for me to pass up.

                                            The flop is not great, but then again, hero is offered 6:1 on the call. It's not the end of the universe, although it is also not great.

                                            The key problem for me is the turn, c/c pot on the turn you wanted is madness. You should probably bet/shove there, rather than chk/call. If you do chk, you should check raise all in.

                                            I think I can fold the river - but I don't know much about tourneys.
                                            Pre is terrible imo because its one of those hands you should be autofolding without thinking. Especially when only 30bbs deep, you can't afford to peel off things like this.

                                            Flop is bad because he is not closing the action and even a small bet into this pot is scary enough given it's multi-way.

                                            I don't mind a turn c/r normally here given stacks but when vil pots turn like that, I don't expect him to check the river often, so surely it's best to c/c just incase he's making a mad bluff

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Boys it's a 100% complete preflop, no other way about it, it's a big mistake not to call in these spots!
                                              Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                              My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                              My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                King is good card for him to bluff at?

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by cardshark202 View Post
                                                  Pre is terrible
                                                  Why are ppl always so prone to such strong statements?
                                                  I can understand why you would choose not to do it, but given the pot odds, it simply cannot be "terrible".

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                    Boys it's a 100% complete preflop, no other way about it, it's a big mistake not to call in these spots!
                                                    No, it's quite the opposite. The vast majority of the time it's burning money. We're not deep enough to justify it with implied odds. This is a long term losing play.
                                                    "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by AndyFB View Post
                                                      No, it's quite the opposite. The vast majority of the time it's burning money. We're not deep enough to justify it with implied odds. This is a long term losing play.
                                                      When you have 9:1 pot odds, why do you need implied odds to justify it?

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by fuzzbox View Post
                                                        When you have 9:1 pot odds, why do you need implied odds to justify it?
                                                        How often do we flop two pair? Serious question because that's the min we need to continue imo on any flop. Therefore a fold is probably best.

                                                        What do we do on an 8 high flop? Do we lead? Do we check/call or check/fold?

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                                                          How often do we flop two pair?
                                                          Why don't you tell me?



                                                          Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                                                          Serious question because that's the min we need to continue imo on any flop. Therefore a fold is probably best.
                                                          you would c/f on a 57x flop?


                                                          Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                                                          What do we do on an 8 high flop? Do we lead? Do we check/call or check/fold?
                                                          You can do what you like .
                                                          What do you like to do?

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by fuzzbox View Post
                                                            When you have 9:1 pot odds, why do you need implied odds to justify it?
                                                            You need the implied odds because your getting 9/1 on a 50/1 shot(apx) of hitting 2 pair, 100/1 shot (apx) of hitting a straight

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Laois Hammer View Post
                                                              You need the implied odds because your getting 9/1 on a 50/1 shot(apx) of hitting 2 pair, 100/1 shot (apx) of hitting a straight
                                                              2 pair OR a straight

                                                              .....

                                                              OR trips
                                                              OR a straight draw
                                                              OR a pair + a draw

                                                              The OR part is really important.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by fuzzbox View Post
                                                                2 pair OR a straight

                                                                .....

                                                                OR trips
                                                                OR a straight draw
                                                                OR a pair + a draw

                                                                The OR part is really important.
                                                                Calling pre here is leaving yourself in a horrible way on the flop. I see no point spewing chips with 8-6 rags no matter how much it costs.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by A_CitizenErased View Post
                                                                  Calling pre here is leaving yourself in a horrible way on the flop.
                                                                  Can you describe some of the horrible ways that you would find?
                                                                  Can you specify the parts you would find horrible, so I can understand better?

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by fuzzbox View Post
                                                                    Can you describe some of the horrible ways that you would find?
                                                                    Can you specify the parts you would find horrible, so I can understand better?
                                                                    You would really want to be flopping 2 pair here or trips to be fair. I would find it horrible if it came eight high. I still dont know if im ahead, or behind for that matter. You have no flush opportunity's. The chance of a straight hitting are about 100/1.
                                                                    I would just keep my chips instead of wasting them with rags.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by AndyFB View Post
                                                                      No, it's quite the opposite. The vast majority of the time it's burning money. We're not deep enough to justify it with implied odds. This is a long term losing play.
                                                                      Based on hitting yes, we don't just play hands to hit all the time tho do we? I could simply say ok we bluff enough turns to take down enough pots to make calling pre plus ev.

                                                                      I still call pre all time & so do you i'm sure, yadda yadda not the point you will say but why isn't it? I prefer realism to what ppl will do rather than the correct statics way to play it in the long run.

                                                                      Can you tell me what is a plus ev hand you need to complete in small blind that makes it profitable without stating the obvious? I be very interested to hear...cheers.
                                                                      Last edited by blaaaaaaah; 27-02-11, 03:42.
                                                                      Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                      My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                      My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        <3 Fuzzbox
                                                                        Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by Baked Beans View Post
                                                                          Full Tilt Poker No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t120/t240 Blinds + t25 - 9 players

                                                                          BTN: t6120
                                                                          Hero (SB): t7470
                                                                          BB: t5805
                                                                          UTG: t11700
                                                                          UTG+1: t10455
                                                                          UTG+2: t3100
                                                                          MP1: t9517
                                                                          MP2: t9110
                                                                          CO: t5565

                                                                          Pre Flop: (t585) Hero is SB with 6 8
                                                                          2 folds, UTG+2 calls t240, 1 fold, MP2 calls t240, 2 folds, Hero calls t120, BB checks

                                                                          Flop: (t1185) A K 6 (4 players)
                                                                          Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets t240, Hero calls t240, BB folds, UTG+2 calls t240

                                                                          Turn: (t1905) 6 (3 players)
                                                                          Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets t1905, Hero calls t1905, UTG+2 folds

                                                                          River: (t5715) K (2 players)
                                                                          Hero checks, MP2 bets t6700 all in, Hero calls t5060 all in

                                                                          Final Pot: t15835
                                                                          SPOILER
                                                                          MP2 shows Q K (a full house, Kings full of Sixes)MP2 wins t15835


                                                                          EDIT: I was thinking of raising the turn but I thought he was betting out a flushdraw the way it played out & wanted to see did it hit before getting it all in or not
                                                                          why call pre ... why no one raise , if im going into pot i raise to 680, bet flop to rep ace jam turn which he calls if has ace folds with king ,,,,, raise pre to pick up 15% of stack otherwise fold . never flatcall , not me but maybe i wrong ???

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            OK you can argue that it's not 'terrible' but that doesn't mean it's not bad. And for me, because it is such a basic fold and is not hard to figure out why, I believe it is terrible.

                                                                            If you can justify calling here, then you would not be playing this level(whatever it is - I assume it is not that big) imo. Which is a paradox in a way. But really if you look at it mathematically(too lazy/partially drunk atm), you can clearly see how it's an obvious fold. Your chances of flopping 2pr+ or draws are too slim, and some of the draws you flop will have reverse implied odds. Only a really great player will be able to evaluate that sort of hand well enough post flop to justify calling it, but most of those great players will be playing in games where the other players' skill levels will negate his/hers options to make marginal calls like this.

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by butter View Post
                                                                              why call pre ... why no one raise , if im going into pot i raise to 680, bet flop to rep ace jam turn which he calls if has ace folds with king ,,,,, raise pre to pick up 15% of stack otherwise fold . never flatcall , not me but maybe i wrong ???
                                                                              you yes wrong. please why think. you thank.

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by A_CitizenErased View Post
                                                                                You would really want to be flopping 2 pair here or trips to be fair. I would find it horrible if it came eight high. I still dont know if im ahead, or behind for that matter. You have no flush opportunity's. The chance of a straight hitting are about 100/1.
                                                                                I would just keep my chips instead of wasting them with rags.
                                                                                You are about 9:1 or so to flop something good with your hand.
                                                                                Something good = open end str8 draw OR 2 pair OR better

                                                                                Something good != top pair.

                                                                                You can happily give up top pair without a fight on the flop and still be justified in your preflop call on a pure pot odds basis.

                                                                                On top of that, we clearly have plenty of implied odds based on how this hand turned out. Some dude bet the entire pot on the turn with Kx on an AK66 board.

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by cardshark202 View Post
                                                                                  OK you can argue that it's not 'terrible' but that doesn't mean it's not bad. And for me, because it is such a basic fold and is not hard to figure out why, I believe it is terrible.
                                                                                  Come on sharky - where's the fun unless you justify your position?
                                                                                  Why is it terrible to take a 9:1 shot here?
                                                                                  Why is it even bad?

                                                                                  Originally posted by cardshark202 View Post
                                                                                  If you can justify calling here, then you would not be playing this level(whatever it is - I assume it is not that big) imo. Which is a paradox in a way. But really if you look at it mathematically(too lazy/partially drunk atm), you can clearly see how it's an obvious fold. Your chances of flopping 2pr+ or draws are too slim, and some of the draws you flop will have reverse implied odds. Only a really great player will be able to evaluate that sort of hand well enough post flop to justify calling it, but most of those great players will be playing in games where the other players' skill levels will negate his/hers options to make marginal calls like this.
                                                                                  Partially drunk at 9.54am - nice work - I'm jealous!

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    WRONG
                                                                                    Originally posted by Laois Hammer View Post
                                                                                    You need the implied odds because your getting 9/1 on a 50/1 shot(apx) of hitting 2 pair, 100/1 shot (apx) of hitting a straight

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by cardshark202 View Post
                                                                                      you yes wrong. please why think. you thank.
                                                                                      great help with that comment

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                                                        Based on hitting yes, we don't just play hands to hit all the time tho do we? I could simply say ok we bluff enough turns to take down enough pots to make calling pre plus ev.

                                                                                        I still call pre all time & so do you i'm sure, yadda yadda not the point you will say but why isn't it? I prefer realism to what ppl will do rather than the correct statics way to play it in the long run.

                                                                                        Can you tell me what is a plus ev hand you need to complete in small blind that makes it profitable without stating the obvious? I be very interested to hear...cheers.
                                                                                        Are you looking for me to construct a complete range for overlimping in the SB? And what's all this "so do you but that's not the point" business? I genuinely do fold these hands. Do you not believe me?

                                                                                        Also, talking about your potential for taking down the hand with a bluff when you are out of position in what will be a 4-way hand is just silly. The amount of equity you gain by including that is negligible. On the vast majority of flops, way more than 8 out of 9, you are not going to win any chips in this hand.
                                                                                        "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          wow just catching up on this thread now,
                                                                                          Think this is my first thread that I wanted insight into a hand and boy did it deliver!

                                                                                          Very impressed by all the responses guys thanks,

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            If they were suited everybody would be calling

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Originally posted by DaKlowen View Post
                                                                                              WRONG
                                                                                              Maybe because i didnt take into account you can flop either of them the odds are off yeah fuzzbox already pointed that out,


                                                                                              I really think its a leak to flick it in here with unsuited 1gappers, maybe people can justify it to themselves because of the 9/1 but really its burning money out of position in a multiway pot,
                                                                                              Keep in mind you wont win everytime you flop 2 pair, you wont win everytime you flop trips. You wont get paid as much as you need to make it profitable when you flop a straight.
                                                                                              Surely its just -ev to be completing with these hands regularly.

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by fuzzbox View Post
                                                                                                Come on sharky - where's the fun unless you justify your position?
                                                                                                Why is it terrible to take a 9:1 shot here?
                                                                                                Why is it even bad?



                                                                                                Partially drunk at 9.54am - nice work - I'm jealous!
                                                                                                haha, in argentina, 3 hour difference, was 6.45am

                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by fuzzbox View Post
                                                                                                  You are about 9:1 or so to flop something good with your hand.
                                                                                                  Something good = open end str8 draw OR 2 pair OR better

                                                                                                  Something good != top pair.

                                                                                                  You can happily give up top pair without a fight on the flop and still be justified in your preflop call on a pure pot odds basis.

                                                                                                  On top of that, we clearly have plenty of implied odds based on how this hand turned out. Some dude bet the entire pot on the turn with Kx on an AK66 board.
                                                                                                  Ok let me say this. If you have a lot of confidence in your decision making and you can get away from a lot of marginal situations postlop, then I think you could possibly justify this call.


                                                                                                  Using the fact villain had Kx is being results orientated. It's extremely rare for someone to play Kx like that.


                                                                                                  And regarding my style of 'coarse' posting, it is designed to get more responses and sometimes it is just better to tell it like it is...

                                                                                                  Comment

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