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2 black Aces - yepee

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    2 black Aces - yepee



    Hand advise - 1st level of the Clonmel Coursing Main Event blinds are 25 50 starting stacks 15K Freezeout
    Utg raises to 300 folded around to the button who re-pops to 1,100 you look down at 2 black Aces in the SB whats your move here....

    Utg is a northern guy, no real pots of note, he has been in a few hands, no showdown to note. Button has been active enough, but has not been out of line... (it is only 20 minutes into tournament)

    What's your next move.
    Last edited by smurph; 01-02-10, 10:21.
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    #2
    wat r de starting stacks?
    "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

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      #3
      sorry changed thread to show it 15K starting stack
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        #4
        I'd be happy enough to shove here. I know we're missing value, but I'd prefer - this early in a tourney to take the few chips rather than get mixed up in a multi way pot with donks who will call down with any sort of SD/FD. if one of them clls then great - but I'd prefer to be up against one of them.

        if we raise to say 3.5k/4k can we be sure that utg will fold? If utg calls will the BB just call or shove over the top? If he shoves ott is UTG calling?

        If one of them/both calls and the flop comes down KKX or QQX, can we really let it our AA go? 12k in the pot with 11k behind?

        I'd advocate a shove and let them decide.
        Last edited by newbie2; 01-02-10, 10:38.

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          #5
          Did utg really open 6x? I would definetly re-raise here when this deep and you have no good reads on either player, no matter how you play your hand here your range is going to be extremely strong because both their ranges should be very strong also.

          I think shoving is terrible tbh, if UTG had KK he might even fold it which would obviously be terrible. Basically the only hand you would be shoving 300bb pre is AA!!

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by newbie2 View Post
            I'd be happy enough to shove here. I know we're missing value, but I'd prefer - this early in a tourney to take the few chips rather than get mixed up in a multi way pot with donks who will call down with any sort of SD/FD. if one of them clls then great - but I'd prefer to be up against one of them.

            if we raise to say 3.5k/4k can we be sure that utg will fold? If utg calls will the BB just call or shove over the top? If he shoves ott is UTG calling?

            If one of them/both calls and the flop comes down KKX or QQX, can we really let it our AA go? 12k in the pot with 11k behind?

            I'd advocate a shove and let them decide.
            are you craaazzzzeeeee? shoving is terrible there

            4-bet for sure, make it 3.3k or so and either take it down there and then or else create a 7k-ish pot which will be easy to play (i.e. get it in) on the flop and turn.
            "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
              are you craaazzzzeeeee? shoving is terrible there

              4-bet for sure, make it 3.3k or so and either take it down there and then or else create a 7k-ish pot which will be easy to play (i.e. get it in) on the flop and turn.
              Yeah i agree with all this, especially with the bolded bit!

              Comment


                #8
                No-one agrees. Ah well, that's why i'm a poker genius and you're all not.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by newbie2 View Post
                  No-one agrees. Ah well, that's why i'm a poker genius and you're all not.
                  the only way that shoving would be good there is if you had some bizarre metagame shit going on with the other villains

                  and even then it would be pretty awful
                  "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                  Comment


                    #10
                    results orientated FTW.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      lol shoving 300 big blinds over line with pocket Aces
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                        #12
                        Originally posted by smurph View Post
                        lol shoving 300 big blinds over line with pocket Aces
                        bet you lost the hand though
                        "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                        Comment


                          #13
                          okay so I decide to re-raise (I did think about flat calling the re-raise, but certainly never thought about shoving)

                          My re-raise was to 3,100

                          opinions on this
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                            #14
                            Originally posted by smurph View Post
                            okay so I decide to re-raise (I did think about flat calling the re-raise, but certainly never thought about shoving)

                            My re-raise was to 3,100

                            opinions on this
                            I'd have gone 3,300 but your raise still seems about right.

                            I don't like flatting here against two villains OOP, plus it makes it harder to get all the loots in (jbravado style). Button is repping serious strength at this stage of the game so you should get a customer. God knows what the original raiser has if he's raising 6x
                            "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I asked Colette to post this up as we discussed it last night.
                              My response to her was that the 4-bet to 3100 was too small and it should have been maybe 4.5-5K.
                              If 1st. guy calls 3100,then you will almost certainly get the 2nd also.
                              I've noticed with these type of tourneys that people are prepared to set aside a certain amount of their chips to "gamble" with early on and I've also noticed that in both Hibernian and Celtic poker games the players want to see flops,so I think a bigger 4-bet here is essential to avoid a three-way flop.
                              That said though,I know that we all want some action with AA, but sometimes the only pot you can win with them is a small one.
                              My 2c anyway.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                4500 to 5000 is too big here imo. 3000-3300 is about right and even if both of them call, the fact that they are both prepared to put 60ish BB's in preflop means that they likely are not very liable to fold anyhow and I woul be willing to get it in 3 ways vs them on a huge number of flops (QJT possibly being one such exception).

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by 5starpool View Post
                                  4500 to 5000 is too big here imo. 3000-3300 is about right and even if both of them call, the fact that they are both prepared to put 60ish BB's in preflop means that they likely are not very liable to fold anyhow and I woul be willing to get it in 3 ways vs them on a huge number of flops (QJT possibly being one such exception).
                                  Ya this seems about right, no need to 4bet big here at all, 3100 looks perfect to me. if you 4bet too big here people will think they have no fold equity if they shove. By 4betting smaller you leave them room to make a big mistake. It also leaves the stack sizes better post flop. Pot will be ~6.5k with ~12k behind if you get one caller. This leaves a half pot bet on the flop and then shove the turn. If you 4bet bigger your just going to be left with a overbet jam on the flop, which again is going to let the villian play perfectively and not make too many mistakes.

                                  Also I dont think utg is going to flat too often with this action so i'm not too worried about the pot going 3 ways. If utg does flat I think you can give him a pretty accurate range of JJ, QQ maybe AK too anyway. If the button flats his range is wider but post flop should be pretty straight forward to play versus a tight enough range.

                                  Another point is that if you ever have bluffs pre in this spot then you need to keep the 4bet small too.
                                  "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

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                                    #18
                                    After I raised to 3,100 the initial raiser (utg) thought long and hard about it and eventually folded...
                                    the button thought about it aswell, and eventually called...

                                    Flop comes down 8h 3h 2x pot (6,550) action to you.....
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                                      #19
                                      FYI:

                                      Blinds 50/100

                                      UTG opens for 300
                                      MP calls 300
                                      Button makes it 1100
                                      you repop it to 3100 from the BB

                                      Effective stacks 15k

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by bops View Post
                                        FYI:

                                        Blinds 50/100

                                        UTG opens for 300
                                        MP calls 300
                                        Button makes it 1100
                                        you repop it to 3100 from the BB

                                        Effective stacks 15k
                                        Really I thought it was still 25 50

                                        Are you sure there was a caller in mp I thought is was just 3 little souls in the pot
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                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by smurph View Post
                                          Really I thought it was still 25 50

                                          Are you sure there was a caller in mp I thought is was just 3 little souls in the pot
                                          pretty sure , but i'm tired! - i normally wouldn't squeeze here with only an utg opener

                                          ...but anyway it doesn't really affect things

                                          but it deffo wasn't a 6x open

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Anything over 4000 would definitely be too big imo. I'd go somewhere between 3k and 3500.

                                            B/c now. If you really want you can check/call, but doing anything that involves you not getting all your chips in at some point in the hand (or a c/r) is bad imo.
                                            Foldaramus et foldarabimus

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                                              #23
                                              yes i agree with yhe other posters here 3000-3500 preflop is a nice raise

                                              post flop i think you don't want to give him any free cards there is a flush draw and a straight draw out there now but i doubt that he will be after hitting the straight draw. i think i bet 3500-4000 now and hope that he shipps it here with an over-pair or an a high flush draw.

                                              i could have this completly wrong



                                              "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

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                                                #24
                                                Easy bet call now, anywhere from 3k-4k. Would hate a check here.
                                                "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

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                                                  #25
                                                  now that we know bops is in the hand, allocate him a strict range of 83 or 82

                                                  bet 4500, obv. call a shove, otherwise get the rest in on the turn
                                                  "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    if its as you described and a 6x open and button repop, im happy to make it 3100 ish as it gives utg opener who could be mad, or may have a big hand chance to ship as he thinks you can fold. On this description, its quite likely both other players have big hands.

                                                    if theres a std open, and mid pos call, then button re raise id make it more like 4k, as more likely 1st 2 guys have suited cons or small pps and u dont want flop going 4 ways when they have hands they will only continue with if u are behind. On this description its less likely the players have big hands.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      this hand is great for cementing my wonderful rep!

                                                      jebus i felt dirty doing this one i'll tell ya

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        I sense a disturbance in the bad beat force. 88? AK Suited Hearts?

                                                        +1 to betting 4K and calling shove.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Thanks for the replies.... the button caller was Big Bad Bops

                                                          My bet on the flop was big 6K and he shipped.... I called and was shown a set of 3's..... mini rant later I was okay.....

                                                          still had 2K left behind which I got up to 4.5K and shipped over a load of limpers with AJ.... everyone folded but Big Bad Bops..... and yes he had 3's again..
                                                          the flop came K 10 x giving me a few more outs, but alas I didn't hit.

                                                          Bops said he called me preflop because he was set mining and you only need 6:1 to call.....

                                                          I was going through the hand on my way home (alot of time to think) and reckoned my bet on the flop was pretty big, but I have no doubt that Bops would ship there with a flush draw... and I didn't put him on a flopped set... I had his range higher....

                                                          glad to see you put my chips to good use Bops....
                                                          Next time we meet mines a vodka, diet 7up loads of ice and lemon....thanks
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                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by smurph View Post
                                                            Thanks for the replies.... the button caller was Big Bad Bops

                                                            My bet on the flop was big 6K and he shipped.... I called and was shown a set of 3's..... mini rant later I was okay.....

                                                            still had 2K left behind which I got up to 4.5K and shipped over a load of limpers with AJ.... everyone folded but Big Bad Bops..... and yes he had 3's again..
                                                            the flop came K 10 x giving me a few more outs, but alas I didn't hit.

                                                            Bops said he called me preflop because he was set mining and you only need 6:1 to call.....

                                                            I was going through the hand on my way home (alot of time to think) and reckoned my bet on the flop was pretty big, but I have no doubt that Bops would ship there with a flush draw... and I didn't put him on a flopped set... I had his range higher....

                                                            glad to see you put my chips to good use Bops....
                                                            Next time we meet mines a vodka, diet 7up loads of ice and lemon....thanks
                                                            take live player notes (bops = lunatic) imo and...take it to the BBV!
                                                            "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Shoving preflop would've folded out everything and the result would've been moore favourable to you IMO.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by smurph View Post
                                                                Thanks for the replies.... the button caller was Big Bad Bops

                                                                My bet on the flop was big 6K and he shipped.... I called and was shown a set of 3's..... mini rant later I was okay.....

                                                                still had 2K left behind which I got up to 4.5K and shipped over a load of limpers with AJ.... everyone folded but Big Bad Bops..... and yes he had 3's again..
                                                                the flop came K 10 x giving me a few more outs, but alas I didn't hit.

                                                                Bops said he called me preflop because he was set mining and you only need 6:1 to call.....

                                                                I was going through the hand on my way home (alot of time to think) and reckoned my bet on the flop was pretty big, but I have no doubt that Bops would ship there with a flush draw... and I didn't put him on a flopped set... I had his range higher....

                                                                glad to see you put my chips to good use Bops....
                                                                Next time we meet mines a vodka, diet 7up loads of ice and lemon....thanks
                                                                Sounds like a sick good tournament. Your flop bet is way to big btw, 4k would be fine and then ship the rest in on the river.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by smurph View Post
                                                                  Bops said he called me preflop because he was set mining and he only needs 6:1 to call.....
                                                                  FYP
                                                                  Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

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                                                                    #34
                                                                    Yep,
                                                                    I didn't post for the "poor me I got my Aces cracked boo hoo"
                                                                    it was more about my raise pre-flop and betting on the flop.....
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                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by smurph View Post
                                                                      Yep,
                                                                      I didn't post for the "poor me I got my Aces cracked boo hoo"
                                                                      it was more about my raise pre-flop and betting on the flop.....
                                                                      8 3 2 flop, what more do ya want? Even Hellmuth goes broke there

                                                                      what names did you call him?
                                                                      "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by smurph View Post
                                                                        Yep,
                                                                        I didn't post for the "poor me I got my Aces cracked boo hoo"
                                                                        it was more about my raise pre-flop and betting on the flop.....
                                                                        I think the only mistake you made in the hand was the bet sizing on the flop, very important to make it smaller here given stack sizes.
                                                                        "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

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                                                                          #37
                                                                          the 6/1 was when i was calling the 2k to win the 12k eff behind - it's ~ 8/1 inc what's already in the pot

                                                                          somebody can do the math on it, i think it's not bad considering your hand is face up (imo) and i know you are going broke if i ping it

                                                                          i'm purely set-mining, at worst, i miss, i fold, i've nearly my starting stack of 15k

                                                                          so in summary:
                                                                          bet a little more pre, i would have mucked without a thought for 400/500 more
                                                                          bet less on the flop - you more/less shipped - you gave me no room to bluff at it - you were never folding that flop, why make it so hard for me to spew away the rest of my stack?

                                                                          anyway ul, vodkas on me all night next time we cross paths

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            did you win it?
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                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by smurph View Post
                                                                              did you win it?
                                                                              2nd - I run bad

                                                                              (did a little bit of a deal with Kenneth from dublin - deals a JP's games good player nice fella) he had a good chip lead - head's up was only 1 hand @ 7 this morning

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                so bops if the flop is A 3 x - are you just folding?

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by Ace View Post
                                                                                  so bops if the flop is A 3 x - are you just folding?
                                                                                  yep! I'm good a soul-reading

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by bops View Post
                                                                                    the 6/1 was when i was calling the 2k to win the 12k eff behind - it's ~ 8/1 inc what's already in the pot

                                                                                    somebody can do the math on it, i think it's not bad considering your hand is face up (imo) and i know you are going broke if i ping it

                                                                                    i'm purely set-mining, at worst, i miss, i fold, i've nearly my starting stack of 15k
                                                                                    so to paraphrase; "I put in 20% of my stack preflop with 33 in order to fold the 87% of times I don't hit"
                                                                                    "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by bops View Post
                                                                                      i'm purely set-mining, at worst, i miss, i fold, i've nearly my starting stack of 15k
                                                                                      So why 3bet in the first place?

                                                                                      3betting here when 150bbs deep against an utg raise is bad, then calling a 4bet from someone whos range is "face up" because you almost have the right odds to hit a set when they have AA isnt far behind. You need to be getting more than the 8.5/1 odds of hitting a set here to call pre because theres no way your getting paid off 100% of the time you hit a set.
                                                                                      "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Surely set-mining means calling OTB here, in order to get the SB/BB to come in?

                                                                                        Calling off >20% of your stack in a re-raised pot hoping to flop a set is...
                                                                                        is...
                                                                                        is...
                                                                                        is something.

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Implied odds aren't big enough to 'set mine' here imo. It is ~7.5/1 to flop a set, so given that you are set mining and need to hit a set to continue (definition of set mining imo) and need smurph to have a hand she is willing to get the loots in on the flop/turn with means that the odds are not big enough for this.

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            I think 3100 is fine pre. The flop bet is too big imo, ~4k is fine and you can shove turn comfortably then. Also, obv its a bet/call.. never folding here.

                                                                                            EDIT: just read the results. Don't want to be rude bops but thats about as horrible as 33 could be played in that spot. Why the 3bet pre? It's a perfect spot to flat call and see a multiway flop in position and hope to bing the 3.
                                                                                            The 4bet call is horrendous, you're not getting near the right price, utter spew imo.
                                                                                            Last edited by FeetMagic; 01-02-10, 18:01.

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              I way prefer flatting here preflop for the simple reason that 4betting polarises your range to a couple of hands and your opponents(if competant) can play perfectly against you, you also may induce the UTG to 4bet, in which case this is perfect for you,

                                                                                              I think the buttons 3bet is bad, but can kind of understand the call wit the 33 once he gets 4bet cos he knows he will get max value if he hits,

                                                                                              Betting 6k is pretty bad on the flop

                                                                                              if i 3bet to 3100 as you did, i would bet like 2500-3000 on the flop, to give my opponent the idea he has fold equity to a shove, i am not saying i am folding to a raise/ship from him, wat i am saying is he may brain fart your hand to AK or something else

                                                                                              betting 6k is pretty bad, it just turns your hand face up

                                                                                              Flat pre way better than 4betting to any amount
                                                                                              http://drjff.blogspot.com/

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                No way is flatting superior. If you do that then it is quite likely that both that are in for 300 will call as well and you don't want a 4 way flop OOP.

                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by DrJFF View Post
                                                                                                  I way prefer flatting here preflop for the simple reason that 4betting polarises your range to a couple of hands and your opponents(if competant) can play perfectly against you, you also may induce the UTG to 4bet, in which case this is perfect for you,

                                                                                                  ...

                                                                                                  Flat pre way better than 4betting to any amount
                                                                                                  IMO, this is better advice when you are going to the flop HU. Multi-way, 4 betting is nearly mandatory.

                                                                                                  -Oz-

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Originally posted by 5starpool View Post
                                                                                                    No way is flatting superior. If you do that then it is quite likely that both that are in for 300 will call as well and you don't want a 4 way flop OOP.
                                                                                                    okay didn't see it went raise, call, 3bet, Hero. . .

                                                                                                    i thought there was no caller being in the middle,

                                                                                                    if there was a max of 3 players going to the flop i see think flatting is best, i would rather take that option than turn my hand face up, we do have AA


                                                                                                    Wat would opponents do wit AK, QQ and JJ?

                                                                                                    If i 4bet i'd either make it really small like 2300-2500 or make bigger like 4000

                                                                                                    but i prefer a smaller 4bet than a large

                                                                                                    by making the small 4bet you should guarantee you will get it heads up unless your opponents are spewtards

                                                                                                    it also gives you the chance of getting a spaz 5bet
                                                                                                    http://drjff.blogspot.com/

                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      2k to win 16,850 = better than 8/1
                                                                                                      ye guys snap your stacks for flips

                                                                                                      am I missing something??

                                                                                                      the 2k reps about 12% of my stack not 20%

                                                                                                      in all honesty, it looks a bit ugly, but the math is fine behind the call of the 4bet?

                                                                                                      anyway i'm just a lucky donkey

                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        Originally posted by bops View Post
                                                                                                        in all honesty, it looks a bit ugly, but the math is fine behind the call of the 4bet?
                                                                                                        No, and calling here is going to represent a huge loser for you long term. In order for this to be correct, you have to proceed from false assumptions, namely...

                                                                                                        1. Smurph stacks off on 100% of flops 100% of the time regardless
                                                                                                        2. You win the hand 100% of the time you flop a three, regardless

                                                                                                        Starting with 1, this is obviously false. Let's give a general range here, you may know the player in questions tendencies better than me so they may be off, but in generality...We'll say AA, KK, maybe sometimes QQ and AK, and maybe sometimes bluffs. Her range in this spot may well be AA and KK only, I'm not entirely sure.

                                                                                                        Anyway, she obviously isn't stacking off 100% of the time with bluffs, and she isn't stacking off with AK when it misses. With KK and QQ she isn't stacking off if the flop comes a3x or something like that. She also isn't always stacking with two black kings on 345 all hearts, etc etc. So immediately we see we wont get the required ROI on calling getting 8/1 because villain isn't giving us her stack every single time we connect with the flop, which we'd need to breakeven if we were getting exactly the 'right' implied odds.

                                                                                                        2. You don't win 100% of the time. You've flopped absolute gin here and Smurph still wins nearly 1 time in ten. Throw in backdoor draws and it goes up again. What about other flops? On 234 she wins ~1/8 with AA. You're slightly worse than 60/40 on 234 monotone when Smurph holds the ace of that suit with aces. You also get coolered a bit, both in terms of set over set or Smurph 4 betting air and hitting some kind of draw or possibly hitting straight over set or something like that. So you actually flop a set and lose a not insignificant amount of time.

                                                                                                        In short, getting 8/1 implied odds set mining isn't nearly enough and it's not even close to being profitable for a number of reasons. As a rule of thumb I'd try to be getting 20/1, but this varies depending on a number of factors, the main one being how tight or loose my opponents range is to make the raise that I'm contemplating calling.

                                                                                                        EDIT - I'd also much prefer flatting then 3 betting with 33 pre in this spot fwiw, there'd be alot of crap I'd 3 bet here but 33 wouldn't be a hand I'd use
                                                                                                        Last edited by Sledgejammer; 01-02-10, 20:49.
                                                                                                        "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

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                                                                                                          #53
                                                                                                          Originally posted by Sledgejammer View Post
                                                                                                          No, and calling here is going to represent a huge loser for you long term. In order for this to be correct, you have to proceed from false assumptions, namely...

                                                                                                          1. Smurph stacks off on 100% of flops 100% of the time regardless
                                                                                                          2. You win the hand 100% of the time you flop a three, regardless

                                                                                                          Starting with 1, this is obviously false. Let's give a general range here, you may know the player in questions tendencies better than me so they may be off, but in generality...We'll say AA, KK, maybe sometimes QQ and AK, and maybe sometimes bluffs. Her range in this spot may well be AA and KK only, I'm not entirely sure.

                                                                                                          Anyway, she obviously isn't stacking off 100% of the time with bluffs, and she isn't stacking off with AK when it misses. With KK and QQ she isn't stacking off if the flop comes a3x or something like that. She also isn't always stacking with two black kings on 345 all hearts, etc etc. So immediately we see we wont get the required ROI on calling getting 8/1 because villain isn't giving us her stack every single time we connect with the flop, which we'd need to breakeven if we were getting exactly the 'right' implied odds.

                                                                                                          2. You don't win 100% of the time. You've flopped absolute gin here and Smurph still wins nearly 1 time in ten. Throw in backdoor draws and it goes up again. What about other flops? On 234 she wins ~1/8 with AA. You're slightly worse than 60/40 on 234 monotone when Smurph holds the ace of that suit with aces. You also get coolered a bit, both in terms of set over set or Smurph 4 betting air and hitting some kind of draw or possibly hitting straight over set or something like that. So you actually flop a set and lose a not insignificant amount of time.

                                                                                                          In short, getting 8/1 implied odds set mining isn't nearly enough and it's not even close to being profitable for a number of reasons. As a rule of thumb I'd try to be getting 20/1, but this varies depending on a number of factors, the main one being how tight or loose my opponents range is to make the raise that I'm contemplating calling.

                                                                                                          EDIT - I'd also much prefer flatting then 3 betting with 33 pre in this spot fwiw, there'd be alot of crap I'd 3 bet here but 33 wouldn't be a hand I'd use


                                                                                                          lol
                                                                                                          it really is the wrong place to come on here and tell everyone i played this right. because this is the result, a bust of facts and figures that just goes to show you
                                                                                                          1: how lucky you were to hit
                                                                                                          2: how lucky you were to get a player holding such a premium hand that its not 2 many flops that bother them
                                                                                                          3: how lucky you were to actually get paid

                                                                                                          fwiw i think calling of 20% of your stack with 33 is bloody awfull, but i can see your angle on this with blinds at 50/100 you still have a 120bb left if you miss and have to fold. but you must factor in what kind of clock is running if its a 15-20min clock then calling and missing 2 or 3 of these hands lands you in a whole heap of trouble and online players put a little green fishy icon beside these players. if its a 40-45min clock then this gives you a bit more time but still calling of 20% of your chips 2 or 3 times while set mining and missing is still pretty bad here, the only advantage on this clock is that we don't hit our 10bb fold or shove limit as fast



                                                                                                          "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

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                                                                                                            #54
                                                                                                            Wow, Rory was right, bops is a horrendous donk.

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                                                                                                              #55
                                                                                                              Thanks for the replies..... very interesting comments.

                                                                                                              Bops was so adament that if he flopped a set he would get all my chips, it got me thinking, but I have no doubt in my head that there are alot of flops I would have slowed right down on

                                                                                                              if the flop came with a picture card and a 3... it would have been a different story... (as I had put his range much higher than a small pocket pair, because of his 3bet and flat calling a 4bet)..
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                                                                                                                #56
                                                                                                                ZOMG bops!

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                                                                                                                  #57
                                                                                                                  Originally posted by smurph View Post
                                                                                                                  After I raised to 3,100 the initial raiser (utg) thought long and hard about it and eventually folded...
                                                                                                                  the button thought about it aswell, and eventually called...

                                                                                                                  Flop comes down 8h 3h 2x pot (6,550) action to you.....
                                                                                                                  Hubba hubba how do we get the monies in? Bet 4.5k, shove turn imo (or any other means of getting the monies in)
                                                                                                                  Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

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                                                                                                                    #58
                                                                                                                    ok me bad, i suck, sorry etc

                                                                                                                    just one final thing, as I said earlier I felt a bit dirty doing it, maybe subconsciously I just wanted a decent shot at knocking out the only capable player at the table, who also had position on me?

                                                                                                                    anyways sorry smurph!

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                                                                                                                      #59
                                                                                                                      Originally posted by bops View Post
                                                                                                                      2k to win 16,850 = better than 8/1
                                                                                                                      ye guys snap your stacks for flips

                                                                                                                      am I missing something??

                                                                                                                      the 2k reps about 12% of my stack not 20%

                                                                                                                      in all honesty, it looks a bit ugly, but the math is fine behind the call of the 4bet?

                                                                                                                      anyway i'm just a lucky donkey
                                                                                                                      well firstly if you are folding A3x flops then the odds of hitting a set on a board that doesn't contain an A goes up ever so sightly.

                                                                                                                      secondly it's 2k to win 92% of 16850 which is 15502 given that hero gets there approx 8% of the time on turn and river there will also be times when hero has > 8% equity against your set given that you are getting them in when Smurf has the NFD or BDFD

                                                                                                                      if 2k is 12% of your remaining stacks then you have 17k behind which makes the effective stacks deeper to start the hand

                                                                                                                      you're just not deep enough to call the 4bet with that price. By all means call if you believe the value of stacking hero is worth it in the course of the tournament but it isn't in terms of the implied odds

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                                                                                                                        #60
                                                                                                                        Smurph, 3.1k is fine,
                                                                                                                        6k is a little big, but was mostly irrelevant at that stage,


                                                                                                                        Bops,,,, lol

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