Really Weird river spot live 1/2

[PortOfTheYokes]

Villain in this hand is Johan Meyer, a high stakes sng player who's crushing hu's and tourneys online.
We're both playing 500 or a little over.

8handed
mp raises to 10, I call otb with 10dJd and villain calls from bb

flop Qh 8d 9d pot 33

villain checks, mp c-bets 22, I raises to 72, villain calls and mp folds

turn 6d pot 199

villain checks, I check behind

river Qs pot 199

Villain checks, I???

[RoadSweeper]

why did you check the turn?
Bet it!


Bet the river now obv

[PortOfTheYokes]

why did you check the turn?
Bet it!


Bet the river now obv

What do we hope to get called by?

[Guest]

What do we hope to get called by?

WHAT?????????
What do you hope to get called by???
A queen perhaps A9 even maybe j 10 or even 7 10???
These are all legitimate hands in this spot.
Why wouldnt you bet here???
you have to bet!!!!

[Emmet]

What do we hope to get called by?

it doesn't even matter.

Bet the shit out of the turn btw,

He doesn't have 88 or 99 or QQ as he ships flop with them.

He doesn't even have Q8 or Q9.

He doesn't have a better flush as again, he ships flop with the NFD.

Bet river and let him make hero calls with some weird Qx / JJ / TT.

[fumyname]

Bet turn for more info,

Played v johan many times and he puts maximum pressure on his opponents so his flat from a 3bet signals strength to me.id be thinking flopped set, stacks are to deep to be shippin on flop

So many draws on the board and scare cards i cant see villain continuing on this hand aftee a 150ish bet on turn.why did u check turn btw?! Think river is a gud card for villain.

I prob check behind river now.were never ever gettn called by worse here!!

This is just a rush summary from what i think so wouldn pay to much attention to it

[AndyFatBastard]

Villain checks, I???

should have bet the turn.

Weird spot. I suppose the river is a bet/fold situation. Did you get checkraised?

[Guest]

Bet turn for more info,

Played v johan many times and he puts maximum pressure on his opponents so his flat from a 3bet signals strength to me.id be thinking flopped set, stacks are to deep to be shippin on flop

So many draws on the board and scare cards i cant see villain continuing on this hand aftee a 150ish bet on turn.why did u check turn btw?! Think river is a gud card for villain.

I prob check behind river now.were never ever gettn called by worse here!!

This is just a rush summary from what i think so wouldn pay to much attention to it

I can't believe a value bet is not everyones advice here its unreal you know he has a jack high flush yeah???
I agree Johan is really good on my table deep in the UKIPT Galway and he played a hand against Jamie Burland extremely well and extracted maximum value so I don't believe from my own experiences he ever checks this river for value.

[PortOfTheYokes]

WHAT?????????
What do you hope to get called by???
A queen perhaps A9 even maybe j 10 or even 7 10???
These are all legitimate hands in this spot.
Why wouldnt you bet here???
you have to bet!!!!

When does he ever cold call my flop raise with 710 j10 or a9??????

[Denny Crane]

it doesn't even matter.

Bet the shit out of the turn btw,

He doesn't have 88 or 99 or QQ as he ships flop with them.

He doesn't even have Q8 or Q9.

He doesn't have a better flush as again, he ships flop with the NFD.

Bet river and let him make hero calls with some weird Qx / JJ / TT.

I'd be pretty shocked if he CC the flop with JJ/TT or some weak Qx now tbh!

I'd probably check.

[Guest]

Well to be honest the board is quite draw heavy and he has more than enough ability to float a board like this also I don't think he folds any queen on this flop when he is 250 bbs deep and isnt folding and straight draw while getting 3 to 1 on his money his implied odds are too great if he doesn't feel you are as strong as you are on the flop.
I think he may pay you off as light as A9 and is definitely paying you off with any queen or worse flush

[Denny Crane]

Well to be honest the board is quite draw heavy and he has more than enough ability to float a board like this also I don't think he folds any queen on this flop when he is 250 bbs deep and isnt folding and straight draw while getting 3 to 1 on his money his implied odds are too great if he doesn't feel you are as strong as you are on the flop.
I think he may pay you off as light as A9 and is definitely paying you off with any queen or worse flush

Really doubt he's ever floating or has A9, and it'd be really spewing to call with a straight draw there. Also don't beat very many flushes. Not sure how he's getting 3/1 on the call btw?

oops, forgot about the other j10, guess if you think he might call with that it's closer, unlikely though.

[Guest]

Really doubt he's ever floating or has A9, and it'd be really spewing to call with a straight draw there. Not sure how he's getting 3/1 on the call?

c bet is 22 then raise to 72 pot accumulates to 149 so hes getting exactly 3-1 on a call.
I agree calling with a9 would be bad and so would a smooth with a straight draw but I just think it has to be considered when playing so deep and getting such a great price thats all...

I just think that a check behind on the river is really poor play thats all

[Denny Crane]

c bet is 22 then raise to 72 pot accumulates to 149 so hes getting exactly 3-1 on a call.

He didn't cbet.

[RoadSweeper]

Sorry, I mis read action on the flop.

It makes it a tougher hand now.

I still think I bet the turn.

[Guest]

He didn't cbet.

Sorry I genuinely didnt notice that and I agree it does narrow his hand range and value betting becomes much thinner here but as I said earlier I still think its a bet for definite.
I agree that you are only getting called by a flush and a queen but I still think you are missing value by checking the river.
I just think its -ev

[PortOfTheYokes]

Imo the only hands in his range after cold calling the flop raise are 67dd KQdd,AQdd,q9,99 and 88 and i was leaning a lot closer to AQdd and KQdd and 67dd because he prob would 3-bet get it in with 88 or 99 considering my raising range on this flop is wide enough to have q9 and axdd etc.. I checked the turn for pot control because i really dont know what worse hand he's calling with because we can now rule out 67dd also.

[PortOfTheYokes]

it doesn't even matter.

Bet the shit out of the turn btw,

He doesn't have 88 or 99 or QQ as he ships flop with them.

He doesn't even have Q8 or Q9.

He doesn't have a better flush as again, he ships flop with the NFD.

Bet river and let him make hero calls with some weird Qx / JJ / TT.

what makes you think he ships flop with the nfd 250 bb deep?

[RoadSweeper]

Imo the only hands in his range after cold calling the flop raise are 67dd KQdd,AQdd,q9,99 and 88 and i was leaning a lot closer to AQdd and KQdd and 67dd because he prob would 3-bet get it in with 88 or 99 considering my raising range on this flop is wide enough to have q9 and axdd etc.. I checked the turn for pot control because i really dont know what worse hand he's calling with because we can now rule out 67dd also.

6d on the turn

[PortOfTheYokes]

it doesn't even matter.

Bet the shit out of the turn btw,

He doesn't have 88 or 99 or QQ as he ships flop with them.

He doesn't even have Q8 or Q9.

He doesn't have a better flush as again, he ships flop with the NFD.

Bet river and let him make hero calls with some weird Qx / JJ / TT.

wat? jj/tt/qx?

[AndyFatBastard]

Imo the only hands in his range after cold calling the flop raise are 67dd KQdd,AQdd,q9,99 and 88 and i was leaning a lot closer to AQdd and KQdd and 67dd because he prob would 3-bet get it in with 88 or 99 considering my raising range on this flop is wide enough to have q9 and axdd etc.. I checked the turn for pot control because i really dont know what worse hand he's calling with because we can now rule out 67dd also.

Why are you so certain he can't have AQ or KQ on the flop?

[Bozzer]

Imo the only hands in his range after cold calling the flop raise are 67dd KQdd,AQdd,q9,99 and 88 and i was leaning a lot closer to AQdd and KQdd and 67dd because he prob would 3-bet get it in with 88 or 99 considering my raising range on this flop is wide enough to have q9 and axdd etc.. I checked the turn for pot control because i really dont know what worse hand he's calling with because we can now rule out 67dd also.

Good post and pretty much what I was gonna say. If anything he might have more NFD combos for coldcalling flop as its live and deep, so I wouldn't be shocked if he peeled. That makes turn more of a ck obviously.

[Bozzer]

Why are you so certain he can't have AQ or KQ on the flop?

If he's any good they're snapfolds. Not even remotely close!

[Guest]

wat? jj/tt/qx?

Do you honestly think its that poor of a call playing live cash 250 bbs deep to smooth that flop with QT,QJ,KQ or AQ.
I'm not saying its fantastic play but very possible....

[Bozzer]

Do you honestly think its that poor of a call playing live cash 250 bbs deep to smooth that flop with QT,QJ,KQ or AQ.
I'm not saying its fantastic play but very possible....

Its lolbad to coldcall those hands on the flop. Equity is horrible vs raiser's range, reverse implied odds, not closing the action...

[AndyFatBastard]

If he's any good they're snapfolds. Not even remotely close!

I agree he should fold them, but it's live poker and people do all kinds of wierd things.

[Bozzer]

I agree he should fold them, but it's live poker and people do all kinds of wierd things.

The OP indicates he's competent so thats what I'm basing my assumptions on.

[Guest]

Its lolbad to coldcall those hands on the flop. Equity is horrible vs raiser's range, reverse implied odds, not closing the action...

Thats what I just said its not optimal play I agree but it is possible I just think he is never checking the river for value ever he 100% leading the river for value with any bigger flush or made house.
The only scenario's I think is if the villian has Q9 or Q8 and believes the hero has 88 or 99 and has to bet the river for value bu I think that is too specific....

I also think from my experience playing with the villian he is an extremely competent player and will definitely not check a Kx or Ax flush on the river whether it be for value or to check call.
I believe that is a situation he is willing to bet fold!!!

[PortOfTheYokes]

Do you honestly think its that poor of a call playing live cash 250 bbs deep to smooth that flop with QT,QJ,KQ or AQ.
I'm not saying its fantastic play but very possible....

Villain never has any of them here ever

[bustamoves]

jeeze, i thought this was kinda standard..ya...sigh, fuck ..check river..what can he call me with type spot and i'm not calling c/r

i dont think there is much value in betting river.

as for turn i think its close. i wouldnt exactly be excited about betting the turn and dont hate going the pot control route in this instance and as it means we can often get value from some worse hands some of the time on alot of rivers. we can also comfortably call any of his river leads.

cant believe some folk on here are suggesting villian (assuming he is very good) gets to river with hands like KQ (brady) and JJ (emmet). thats just lol and then to suggest he may find a hero call with same is close to insane.

i think debate should be on whether to go for pot control or bet turn. i'd like to hear more on that tbh

[fumyname]

Lads yer not playing a 2$ grinder here.this is a very good player and sum lines been taking here are just very poor.

River is a check. Turn is close but once we dont bet turn the river card is pretty standard check back...he never calls river with worse hand

il hughlight this thread to johan and get him to maybe post his view.

[Emmet]

What does our hand look like to villain?

If you think he only, and I mean only, calls the flop 3bet OOP with the NFD and sets, then check it down, I simply don't think that we can assign him a range that tight.

[Denny Crane]

What kind of range would you assign someone competent cc here deep?

[AndyFatBastard]

So a competent villian has overcalled a c/r on a wet flop. We mostly agree that if he's done this top pair or a straight it's bad. If he's done this with two-pair or a set it's also bad. Really, if villian is genuinely competent, the only thing he can have that isn't bad to flat call with on the flop is the NFD.

This means he has the nut flush on the river, and he should be betting it for value even though the board paired. But he checks. Which is bad because he loses too much value from straights and worse flushes. So basically, no matter what villian had, he played it badly.

Therefore one of our original assumptions is incorrect - Either he can't be as competent as you guys suggest he is, or it's not that bad to flat call with two-pair, a straight or a set on the flop. In both of those cases, his range contains more than just nut flush draws. Therefore he doesn't always have a better hand than us and may call a river bet with worse.

How's my logic?

[Downtown]

Cmon guys, how can we not make a value bet here.

You should of bet the turn of course. I can not see Meyer planning a c/r on the river here, the op's check on the turn doesnt show strength and Meyer would have to be pretty sure OP had a flush to check raise here with a house. He would be better of betting the river with a house as the hand is too likely to go check/check on the river given the previous streets. He more than likely has a Q and I would assume you will get called here by worse alot of the time.

Checking back these rivers when it comes to show down is v weak and the players at the table will be looking to exploit it.

[JohannM.]

May I ask who and how deep the open-raiser was and if I have some History with OP?

[NewApproach]

Sick spot, OP you're only ever getting called by a hand that beats you obv, but having played with Johann quite a bit he is more than capable of c/r worse on this river to apply max pressure imo.

[Denny Crane]

If he's done this with two-pair or a set it's also bad.

Why do you say that?

[PortOfTheYokes]

May I ask who and how deep the open-raiser was and if I have some History with OP?

Open-raiser playing about 300 iirc.

[AndyFatBastard]

Why do you say that?

The consensus in the thread seemed to be that he should be raising and getting them in with those hands, because our range contains so many worse hands and strong draws that he should get them in while he thinks he's ahead. I can accept that being this deep it's ok to play a set as drawing to a full house given that our opponent may have flopped a straight, and with two-pair to call the flop and evaluate the turn with 4 outs to a house. It's certainly worth debating.

[RichieM]

Initailly I had thought that this was the sort of situation where I would have bet into the river. Probably around 3/4 and called the reraise as it is what I would have expected. My reasoning would have been that I had played the hand quite weakly and would have looked more like a late steal then a value bet. On reading the comments tho it is a lot more complicated then I first thought and is one of the more interesting hands I have seen posted up recently with plenty of varrying opinions and so a great hand for discussions. So thanks OP

[Denny Crane]

The consensus in the thread seemed to be that he should be raising and getting them in with those hands

i dunno if I agree with that, I think he'd be over repping his hand a bit, and wouldn't really expect to be in great shape getting 500 blips in against the op.

[PortOfTheYokes]

Cmon guys, how can we not make a value bet here.

You should of bet the turn of course. I can not see Meyer planning a c/r on the river here, the op's check on the turn doesnt show strength and Meyer would have to be pretty sure OP had a flush to check raise here with a house. He would be better of betting the river with a house as the hand is too likely to go check/check on the river given the previous streets. He more than likely has a Q and I would assume you will get called here by worse alot of the time.

Checking back these rivers when it comes to show down is v weak and the players at the table will be looking to exploit it.

He never has a bare Q

[JohannM.]

He never has a bare Q

Does that not answer ur question for u then?

If I never have a bare Q there's no worse hand that I could have in general (ok maybe one of the other JTs Kombos but I'll probably reraise those on the flop and if not I still have to call your bet on the River).

[AndyFatBastard]

Initailly I had thought that this was the sort of situation where I would have bet into the river. Probably around 3/4 and called the reraise as it is what I would have expected. My reasoning would have been that I had played the hand quite weakly and would have looked more like a late steal then a value bet. On reading the comments tho it is a lot more complicated then I first thought and is one of the more interesting hands I have seen posted up recently with plenty of varrying opinions and so a great hand for discussions. So thanks OP

++; This is a real thinker. Cheers.

[PortOfTheYokes]

Does that not answer ur question for u then?

If I never have a bare Q there's no worse hand that I could have in general (ok maybe one of the other JTs Kombos but I'll probably reraise those on the flop and if not I still have to call your bet on the River).

Its such a weird hand! I flop the nuts, turn the 4th nut flush and get checked to on the river and yet i have very little to 0 showdown value!
i suppose the real question is if its profitable to turn my hand into a bluff!? b/c looking back I dont think he's checking the river here with a FH given he csn get value off a lot of hands

[PortOfTheYokes]

Oh btw result:

SPOILER

i tank bet 100 and he tank calls with kdqd

[Emmet]

Haven't read results yet, as wanted to post this to Johan, are you expecting OP to bet worse on the river much? Why do you check to him, when his range is flushes, straights, and trips and is likely to call a river bet or maybe even reraise if you bet the river?

Possibly the most confusing part of the hand for me.

[bustamoves]

Its such a weird hand! I flop the nuts, turn the 4th nut flush and get checked to on the river and yet i have very little to 0 showdown value!
i suppose the real question is if its profitable to turn my hand into a bluff!? b/c looking back I dont think he's checking the river here with a FH given he csn get value off a lot of hands

dont think it makes sense imo to be thinking about turning ur hand into a bluff here as you would realistically need a sublime read that meant A:you could narrow villain's range to just 2 specific hands and B:that he was capable/likely of folding those hands or am i missing something?

[PortOfTheYokes]

dont think it makes sense imo to be thinking about turning ur hand into a bluff here as you would realistically need a sublime read that meant A:you could narrow villain's range to just 2 specific hands and B:that he was capable/likely of folding those hands or am i missing something?

Well he is capable of folding them but agreed that a sublime read is needed to follow through with it

[JohannM.]

Haven't read results yet, as wanted to post this to Johan, are you expecting OP to bet worse on the river much? Why do you check to him, when his range is flushes, straights, and trips and is likely to call a river bet or maybe even reraise if you bet the river?

Possibly the most confusing part of the hand for me.

Ok first of all, lets get this straight - obviously at the time I thought the initial raiser was pretty tight - assuming that Op assumes the same thing he has no JTo in his Range (pre) and shouldn't raise AQ for Value on the Flop although I didn't completely rule that out.

Have I a perceived Bluffing-Range on the River? No
Am I ahead almost always? No
Therefore should I be valuebetting vs Bluffcatchers? No
Therefore check is the best option. That's pretty much my logic behind my play.

I don't want to elaborate more on this since I do plan on playing with a few of you in the future

Anyone going for a round in the Eglinton tonight?

[fumyname]

Ok first of all, lets get this straight - obviously at the time I thought the initial raiser was pretty tight - assuming that Op assumes the same thing he has no JTo in his Range (pre) and shouldn't raise AQ for Value on the Flop although I didn't completely rule that out.

Have I a perceived Bluffing-Range on the River? No
Am I ahead almost always? No
Therefore should I be valuebetting vs Bluffcatchers? No
Therefore check is the best option. That's pretty much my logic behind my play.

I don't want to elaborate more on this since I do plan on playing with a few of you in the future

Anyone going for a round in the Eglinton tonight?

I prefer playin n the eggy when your not playing:-)):-))

Plan on shipping dng tonigh:-D

[Mellor]

Bet turn for more info,

That's not a good reason to bet ever

I agree that you are only getting called by a flush and a queen but I still think you are missing value by checking the river.
I just think its -ev

Checking can't ever be -ev, we can't lose money by checking. It's neutral. Always.

It's a horrible spot but I don't see hows its as awkward as people are making out. I think people are trying to force play/value because of the strength of our hand on flop/turn.

Our hand has been played weak given our holdings. So the knee jerk "bet for value" reply is not unexpected. But taking the hand from Johan's position, I can't see it being a good move. Given the board, so much of our range has showndown value and we should be checking this back.

We bet our strong hands for value, or the rest as a bluff.
Can he call, with a hand we beat, and expect to be ahead of our value range? No.
Given the raise of the tight player on the 3 handed flop, I really doubt it he doesn't credit us for a hand. So he's never calling weak as a bluff catcher.
So then we're are turning our hand into a bluff. Does he ever fold a stronger hand, never imo.
So what do we achieve by betting?

Sigh, and fold for me.

[Moneymaker]

Not checked the results, but the overcall would frighten the jesus out of me. That is such a strong move to overcall on a board that wet. Obv i'm not frightened on the flop with the nuts and all but I hate the turn and absolutely hate the river.

I check the turn also, and with the board pairing on the river I probably check, but I think bet/folding would be ok also on the off chance he has AQ. I probably check though.

Do we go broke on the river if the board doesn't pair?