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    Ruling required

    Recent live mtt. Down to 25 and I'm in the bb with AQ and 20 bigs. Lots of pre flop raises are getting through. Blinds are 3k/1.5k/300.

    Mp raises the table standard 2.5 bigs and its folded to me. I push after a dwell.
    Mp asks for a count, it's 65k, he's playing about 100k which is average. After a 30 secs he turns his hand face up. No one hears him say anything and he does not move any of his chips indicating his intentions. The dealer then sweeps his initial 7.5k into the pot and commences to push the pot toward me. Raiser then says "I called". Everyone agrees no one heard him.

    At this point I have not revealed or mucked my cards.

    What's the ruling?
    One of these days I am either going to quit poker or learn how to play the damn game

    #2
    Originally posted by 40something View Post
    Recent live mtt. Down to 25 and I'm in the bb with AQ and 20 bigs. Lots of pre flop raises are getting through. Blinds are 3k/1.5k/300.

    Mp raises the table standard 2.5 bigs and its folded to me. I push after a dwell.
    Mp asks for a count, it's 65k, he's playing about 100k which is average. After a 30 secs he turns his hand face up. No one hears him say anything and he does not move any of his chips indicating his intentions. The dealer then sweeps his initial 7.5k into the pot and commences to push the pot toward me. Raiser then says "I called". Everyone agrees no one heard him.

    At this point I have not revealed or mucked my cards.

    What's the ruling?
    Cards are live because he has tabled them and can be identified and retrieved from the muck easily . Run the hand and issue a warning to him when the hand is over .

    Comment


      #3
      What was his hand?

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
        What was his hand?
        His holdings should have no baring on the ruling

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
          His holdings should have no baring on the ruling
          It does.

          If he tables AA then he wanted to call
          If he tables KK then he wanted to call
          If he tables Q3o then he wanted to fold
          If he tables 74o then he wanted to fold
          If he tables A8o and then waited to get a reaction from 40something
          If he tables KQ and then waited to get a reaction from 40something

          There's no universal rules regarding cards that are revealed. Some places allow you to turn your cards up when only 2 players are in a hand and then try to get a reaction from the opponent. Other players will kill your hand if it's revealed.

          Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
          Cards are live because he has tabled them and can be identified and retrieved from the muck easily . Run the hand and issue a warning to him when the hand is over
          If 40something fist pumps and slams down AA, would you make him call?
          If 40something sighs and throws his head in the air, then he's obv weak so maybe his A9 or KQ is now a snap, so he's saying he called.

          It does make a difference.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
            It does.

            If he tables AA then he wanted to call
            If he tables KK then he wanted to call
            If he tables Q3o then he wanted to fold
            If he tables 74o then he wanted to fold
            If he tables A8o and then waited to get a reaction from 40something
            If he tables KQ and then waited to get a reaction from 40something

            There's no universal rules regarding cards that are revealed. Some places allow you to turn your cards up when only 2 players are in a hand and then try to get a reaction from the opponent. Other players will kill your hand if it's revealed.



            If 40something fist pumps and slams down AA, would you make him call?
            If 40something sighs and throws his head in the air, then he's obv weak so maybe his A9 or KQ is now a snap, so he's saying he called.

            It does make a difference.
            Just giving what my ruling would be Tony and to me his holdings would have no baring in this particular spot .
            Cards fished from the muck and run as is .
            Give a warning or a penalty at the end of the hand ,regardless of the outcome

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
              Just giving what my ruling would be Tony and to me his holdings would have no baring in this particular spot .
              Cards fished from the muck and run as is .
              Give a warning or a penalty at the end of the hand ,regardless of the outcome
              His cards weren't mucked in the OP. If nobody heard him say and call and he didn't push his chips forward, and only revealed he was 'calling' after the dealer took his pot and began to push the chips away, then i'd lean towards a fold.

              I think you have to use your judgement if he has AK-QQ+ tho

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                His cards weren't mucked in the OP. If nobody heard him say and call and he didn't push his chips forward, and only revealed he was 'calling' after the dealer took his pot and began to push the chips away, then i'd lean towards a fold.

                I think you have to use your judgement if he has AK-QQ+ tho
                If i am the dealer here my first reaction to villain would be to ask him is that a call ( Which obv didn't happen ) .
                You are letting your judgment be clouded by his holdings when it's his actions that speak .
                His hand was tabled ( Therefore Live ) and when he seen the dealer making a mistake getting ready to ship the pot away from him he said he called . (It's a call )
                This all happened while 40's hand was still turned down so he has no other info to change his mind on his intentions

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                  This all happened while 40's hand was still turned down so he has no other info to change his mind on his intentions
                  Ah now Damo. Just because his hand is face down doesn't mean that he didn't get any more info

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                    Ah now Damo. Just because his hand is face down doesn't mean that he didn't get any more info
                    Yes i agree that he probably got a little info by his actions , which to me means he is guilty of angle shooting .
                    Hence the reason i would issue a warning when the hand is over .

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                      It does.

                      If he tables AA then he wanted to call
                      If he tables KK then he wanted to call
                      If he tables Q3o then he wanted to fold
                      If he tables 74o then he wanted to fold
                      If he tables A8o and then waited to get a reaction from 40something
                      If he tables KQ and then waited to get a reaction from 40something
                      He is closing the action, he has only two choices, call the raise.or fold. If he had a bag of spanners he might throw over his cards and do nothing else indicating a fold. Equally if he had AK he might act the same showing respect and/or an unwillingness to race for a huge chunk of his stack. If he has AA he obv throws them over screaming call fist pumping etc.

                      Therefore I think his holding is not relevant.
                      One of these days I am either going to quit poker or learn how to play the damn game

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by 40something View Post
                        He is closing the action, he has only two choices, call the raise.or fold. If he had a bag of spanners he might throw over his cards and do nothing else indicating a fold. Equally if he had AK he might act the same showing respect and/or an unwillingness to race for a huge chunk of his stack. If he has AA he obv throws them over screaming call fist pumping etc.

                        Therefore I think his holding is not relevant.
                        You ignored the A8o/KQ part. What about that?

                        What hand did he have?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                          You ignored the A8o/KQ part. What about that?

                          What hand did he have?
                          I guarantee that villain is ahead of the poster hence his protests.
                          I have found dealers not hearing me when i say raise etc because there half asleep watching tv etc.
                          I think he has called and was not angling for a tell by turning his cards over.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by SICKPUPPY View Post
                            I guarantee that villain is ahead of the poster hence his protests.
                            I have found dealers not hearing me when i say raise etc because there half asleep watching tv etc.
                            I think he has called and was not angling for a tell by turning his cards over.
                            Hence why i'm asking. I don't see it as a blanket ruling. I've been in the same boat aswel with dealers not hearing me say call, but common sense rules a lot of the time.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                              You ignored the A8o/KQ part. What about that?

                              What hand did he have?
                              Who are we to judge the competence or incompetence of the villain to be able to make a call with Q3o or fold JJ .
                              We can only deal with the facts .
                              Last edited by DAMO72; 10-02-13, 13:14.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                Who are we to judge the competence or incompetence of the villain to be able to make a call with Q3o or fold JJ .
                                We can only deal with the facts .
                                What if 40s mucked his hand straight away when the dealer pushed the chips?
                                What if 40s turned up his hand straight away when the dealer pushed the chips?

                                What would you rule here?

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Nothing wrong with turning his cards over looking for a tell anyway when facing an AI shove in a Heads Up pot is there?

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                    What if 40s mucked his hand straight away when the dealer pushed the chips?
                                    What if 40s turned up his hand straight away when the dealer pushed the chips?

                                    What would you rule here?
                                    I can only rule on the facts , not what ifs

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                      Nothing wrong with turning his cards over looking for a tell anyway when facing an AI shove in a Heads Up pot is there?
                                      Depending on card room rulings differ.
                                      In general i think its not allowed.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                        I can only rule on the facts , not what ifs
                                        lol

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                          lol
                                          Ahh there it is , the sound of retreat when one has nothing more constuctive to add to a topic a simple LOL will do .
                                          GL in your quest for online domination .

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                            Ahh there it is , the sound of retreat when one has nothing more constuctive to add to a topic a simple LOL will do .
                                            GL in your quest for online domination .
                                            LOL Damo, LOL

                                            Why on earth would i bother trying to say anything constructive to a ridiculous post from you? Carry on anyway, you're right. You have the facts and nothing else matters. Easy decision.

                                            /thread

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                              LOL Damo, LOL

                                              Why on earth would i bother trying to say anything constructive to a ridiculous post from you? Carry on anyway, you're right. You have the facts and nothing else matters. Easy decision.

                                              /thread
                                              At least you finally realise that im right . The op asked for a ruling based on facts not a bunch of what ifs .
                                              So LOL to you if it's too hard to grasp that simple fact .

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                So now the ruggers is over can we get the result and the ruling , oh and lets not forget his holdings .

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Should the dealer not try to reclaim the last to act guys hand before awarding the pot?

                                                  I'd side with Damo and Arazi here,
                                                  last to act facing an all in, turn your cards up (not tabling them, or mucking) for info should be allowed.
                                                  ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Hand plays out.
                                                    i've no idea why the dealer is taking the chips to push the pot. possibly is confused at the situation and doesn't know what to do, if so then they should seek clarification.
                                                    turning the cards over isn't a fold, releasing them forward or declaring fold is a fold.
                                                    as soon as the hand is concluded the player should get an automatic 1 round (if not more penalty).

                                                    his cards or other actions shouldn't affect the situation.

                                                    unless the 'house rule' is not to turn cards over (this isn't really common place anymore) in which case the hand is dead, kill the cards and push the pot.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      I'd agree with Tony to a certain extent, if he tables AA or KK and says nothing, ruling anything other than a call is retarded. This obviously can lead to some ambiguity, but I think common sense has to be used, if he says noting and tables AA, it's obviously a call.


                                                      It depends on the club rule tbh. Some clubs say your hand is dead if someone else even sees it (rarely enforced, but is a rule in some places).

                                                      In general though, I'd rule hand is dead if he made no indication he is calling. If he showed faceup and hero mucked immediately, I'd award hero the pot.


                                                      EDIT: like, the whole turning cards face-up looking for a reaction isn't acceptable or standard practice these days is it? I'd personally be in favour of stuff like this as it makes the game more entertaining and adds an extra dynamic, but I'd definitely be under the impression that in the current day, this isn't just bad etiquette, it's against the rules.
                                                      Last edited by Jam-Fly; 10-02-13, 17:34.
                                                      Poker Podcast Playlist

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        TDA Poker Rules state

                                                        52: Exposing Cards
                                                        A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand.

                                                        Damo is 100% right. Hand is always live, and if player said he called, it's a call, it doesn't matter if no one heard him say call or not.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by carlinrose View Post
                                                          TDA Poker Rules state

                                                          52: Exposing Cards
                                                          A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand.

                                                          Damo is 100% right. Hand is always live, and if player said he called, it's a call, it doesn't matter if no one heard him say call or not.
                                                          / thread
                                                          One of these days I am either going to quit poker or learn how to play the damn game

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            SO what did he have? lol

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by carlinrose View Post
                                                              TDA Poker Rules state

                                                              52: Exposing Cards
                                                              A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand.

                                                              Damo is 100% right. Hand is always live, and if player said he called, it's a call, it doesn't matter if no one heard him say call or not.

                                                              Ok, so whats the ruling then if 40somethings threw his cards in the muck as he presumed as the dealer did that the villian was actually folding? This to me looks like an angleshoot by the villian looking for a reaction from hero.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                                                Ok, so whats the ruling then if 40somethings threw his cards in the muck as he presumed as the dealer did that the villian was actually folding? This to me looks like an angleshoot by the villian looking for a reaction from hero.
                                                                then his hand is dead. he needs to protect it until he is sure he should fold it

                                                                This is a 100% angleshoot, no doubt.

                                                                In a tournament the player who flips his cards over should get a penalty.

                                                                Some td's here go lenient, because it is possible to turn them over by mistake etc.

                                                                In a cash game we are limited in what we can do.

                                                                I am of the opinion that it is an automatic 1 round minimum penalty, regardless of motivation to discourage such angle shoots. and I lean towards ejection for repeat offenses in cash games.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                                                  Ok, so whats the ruling then if 40somethings threw his cards in the muck as he presumed as the dealer did that the villian was actually folding? This to me looks like an angleshoot by the villian looking for a reaction from hero.
                                                                  40 is also responsible for his own cards , so if he mucks then villains hand is the last live hand and is entitled to the pot .

                                                                  However i am a firm believer in the fairness rule and i do believe a player cannot be all in with no cards . So if this were to happen i would take the minimum bet from 40's stack and award the pot to the last live hand .

                                                                  This whole debacle could be avoided if the dealer was properly trained .

                                                                  Just out of curiosity Connie would you take villains holdings into account from the op

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                                    If i am the dealer here my first reaction to villain would be to ask him is that a call ( Which obv didn't happen ) .
                                                                    You are letting your judgment be clouded by his holdings when it's his actions that speak .
                                                                    His hand was tabled ( Therefore Live ) and when he seen the dealer making a mistake getting ready to ship the pot away from him he said he called . (It's a call )
                                                                    This all happened while 40's hand was still turned down so he has no other info to change his mind on his intentions
                                                                    Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                                    Who are we to judge the competence or incompetence of the villain to be able to make a call with Q3o or fold JJ .
                                                                    We can only deal with the facts .
                                                                    Im with Damo on this one

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      I think its about time the outcome of this was revealed so we can ridicule and LOL a bit more .
                                                                      Cmon 40 the suspense is killing me .

                                                                      FWIW i think this was a reverso ??.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                                        I think its about time the outcome of this was revealed so we can ridicule and LOL a bit more .
                                                                        Cmon 40 the suspense is killing me .

                                                                        FWIW i think this was a reverso ??.
                                                                        Serious bad form by 40 for not bringing this to a conclusion .
                                                                        /Thread

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by carlinrose View Post
                                                                          TDA Poker Rules state

                                                                          52: Exposing Cards
                                                                          A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand.

                                                                          Damo is 100% right. Hand is always live, and if player said he called, it's a call, it doesn't matter if no one heard him say call or not.
                                                                          What if they don't go by TDA rules. House rules aren't uncommon. Saying it's "always live" is a bit silly.

                                                                          It should really be straight forward. The TD should know the house rule, and/or if they go by the TDA rules.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                                            What if they don't go by TDA rules. House rules aren't uncommon. Saying it's "always live" is a bit silly.

                                                                            It should really be straight forward. The TD should know the house rule, and/or if they go by the TDA rules.
                                                                            While the TDA rules are usually the most quoted and easily found, the rule is included in most rule books.

                                                                            Generally I have found if a 'house' has its own specific set of rules they aren't usually written down, or they have an old edition of 'bobs rules' buried under some boxes in the cash desk.

                                                                            Imo 'house' rules are usually symptomatic of the staff not actually being aware of the actual rules and simply doing what has always been done before.

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                              While the TDA rules are usually the most quoted and easily found, the rule is included in most rule books.

                                                                              Generally I have found if a 'house' has its own specific set of rules they aren't usually written down, or they have an old edition of 'bobs rules' buried under some boxes in the cash desk.

                                                                              Imo 'house' rules are usually symptomatic of the staff not actually being aware of the actual rules and simply doing what has always been done before.
                                                                              Not sure where you are from or what the dublin scene is like now, but when I was living in dublin there was a few small differences between what was permitted in each if the main clubs (speech play, exposing cards, etc). These are house rules - regardless of being written down.
                                                                              Turning cards over heads up is a pretty common situation. I wouldn't really rate any TD that hadn't came across it, and knew what the clubs rule was. I agree that TDA are the most common and I agree that they should be live, but that's irrelevant - be it TDA, Robert's, house or makey up rules, the rule should be well known and the ruling straight forward, which ever way it goes.
                                                                              Last edited by Mellor; 14-02-13, 21:32.

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                                                Not sure where you are from or what the dublin scene is like now, but when I was living in dublin there was a few small differences between what was permitted in each if the main clubs (speech play, exposing cards, etc). These are house rules - regardless of being written down.
                                                                                Turning cards over heads up is a pretty common situation. I wouldn't really rate any TD that hadn't came across it, and knew what the clubs rule was. I agree that TDA are the most common and I agree that they should be live, but that's irrelevant - be it TDA, Robert's, house or makey up rules, the rule shouldn't well known and the ruling straight forward, which ever way it goes.
                                                                                Like I said, house rules are rarely written down, hence why they often cause arguments. The term "that's the way they do it here" is often used to justify a rule. Regardless if it is correctly used, gives an unfair advantage to a regular or is completely unfair. That is also why it is increasingly rare to see a reputable club or tournament director that doesn't have the TDA rules on their wall. The problems stem from when they aren't used or even read.

                                                                                Cards being flipped is always a 'hot topic' when tda rules are discussed, and has been pretty much consistently the same though out the existence of the TDA. its only been in the 'regionally' run places that it has ever been an issue.

                                                                                Although, as long as the rules are available to players before hand, and are consistently enforced then there usually is no problem which rules they choose to use. Its when they aren't consistent, or the house does not enforce the rules as they had previously declared it becomes a problem.

                                                                                Players would be happier if there was consistency across various regions and that is getting more and more likely.

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  what was the hand?


                                                                                  ps i oftan fold hands by just turning them over and throw towards the dealer

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by Maddogg View Post
                                                                                    what was the hand?


                                                                                    ps i oftan fold hands by just turning them over and throw towards the dealer
                                                                                    more than acceptable to do this (as long as you are the last man)

                                                                                    Comment

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