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**TommyGunne** · 13-02-10, 10:47

I guess you don't want us to know your hand.

Hero looks completely and utterly FOS.

Sets, good FDs, gutshots. Obv not 100% for any of these hands though.

TJ+,TT+,Any FD he opens,33,77,9T,45,56,a few other random double barrells, perhaps 88. I'd have a smaller weighting on TT and 88. The only hands in villains range that he can call light are TT and QQ+ really, and they're not even really light. You may get a call or two from A high here.

Whatever you have, river is bad.

**bops** · 13-02-10, 11:47

strange line

if i had to put you on a exact hand, i'd say 99

but your river bet is ???

surely a chk/call if you had something like that?

so maybe a thin v bet seeing that the overcard has paired which makes yhg
or
a monster (lol quads) like you think he might chk behind
or
a bad bluff (imo) i'd expect to be called by anything other than a complete bluff

villain could have anything! you can't tell when you're just check-calling an aggro player?

thoughts on hand:
limp - you could have almost any hand here, esp at a v aggro table - anything from 45s to AA!

snap call on flop - you have no FD, it looks like you have a pp, you could haave a set and are happy to trap HU oop against an aggro player

turn think raise/ only call- this looks week imo, like you are trying to look strong to get to showdown cheaper - but this doesn't make sense with your river bet - unless it's a blocker - big blocker tho!?

jebus way too much going on here!
interesting hand tho
gl

**AndyFatBastard** · 13-02-10, 12:33

The only hand I can think you might have that makes sense is a weak jack. TJs probably. As TG said, I'd probably call with A high.

**danutpeddler** · 13-02-10, 12:36

Did villain call the river?

I think you are trying to rep j10 here or set of 8s.

Snap call usually indicates weakness but not sure if you're using this to your advantage.

Hands to possibly c/r flop sets j10hh 810hh 910hh NFD. (nothing wrong with mixing it up and chk calling)

Villain: who knows. Think you get called by 99+

**HiCloy** · 13-02-10, 15:31

You most likely have JhXh, X can really only be K, Q or T.

On the flop c/r all sets, heart draws (except including Ah or Jh) and gutshots, it'll make your range too draw heavy but his is v wide and he probably isn't going to take advantage of how weak yours is

Villain could have almost anything he raised with pre at this point still

**Jackyback** · 13-02-10, 21:35

Missed combo draw?

**ShipIt** · 14-02-10, 02:55

Although its very hard and makes life very hard if u flopped a set I love they way u played it against an aggro button sqzer, if u played a draw like this I hate it, bit Im sure u didnt.
As for Jx this is obv the most obvious hand, I have a feeling u flopped a set and looked to extract the max.

**jackthree** · 15-02-10, 11:57

mmm interesting hand it seems to me like a KJ your trying to represent here

**DrJFF** · 15-02-10, 13:12

haven't forgotten about this, just haven't got a chance to reply properly yet,

will do later when i get back to dublin

**DrJFF** · 15-02-10, 23:20

bops is 100% right here in that my range includes everything from 45s-AA for calling the preflop raise,

obv there is arguments for the limp re-raise especially with the UTG caller,

on the flop i check-raise very few hands on this flop in general, and if i did c/r i would do it with gut-shots and air more often than sets, 2pairs, FDs and Combo Draws,

when he fired big on the flop i put it down to a cbet he had cbet everytime he was the aggressor and always bet big,

my reason for not just making it 4000 or something on the flop was because i thought i would get called alot or jammed on enuf that i don't like it at all and would prefer to fold than c/r and i didn't want to play a turn wit 10k ish in the pot with like 14k behind ~, i also would lose a lot of hands i want to get from his aggro donkish, so i decided to call on the flop and re-evaluate the turn

when the turn hit the 8 i checked he bet so quick i knew he was weak, that is why i considered just popping him here and thought about just jamming all in or raise/calling(which would suck), but came to the decision that calling i can bet some many rivers and win the pot why risk my stack on the turn, the board is 73hh8Jdd, i can bet any river 4-Q, any diamond and any heart, thats more than half the deck,

he will/should find folds with hands that he is not always going to fold on the turn or the flop,

so when the J hit the river this is obviously a bad card for him and a good one for me imo, he will/should check alot Jacks back on the turn for pot control and imo the only value hands in his range on the turn is a weird 9T or a set, sure he will be bad enuf to value town AA-99, and Jx some of time but it just didn't feel like that

so i looked at how much he had left on the turn when i was pondering and tried to decide wat would be a good river bet, he had roughly 9k if my memory serves me correctly, so i thought 5950 was good cos he wouldn't want to make too marginal a call and leave himself crippled, he was pokerstars qualifer and prob his first big enuf buy in tourney and might fold out some marginal calls(like Ace lol),

he tanked and called with 75off, he tanked for 10mins and looked like in a world of hurt

on reflection i am totally happy with my play, something i should have just done was to fold preflop or bet a lil bit bigger on river or an open jam vs this guy might have better,

I had 64hh btw,

i am suprised nobody suspected 9Thh, just on a sidenote

anyone else has any comments or questions fire away!

didn't proof read i'm sorry

**bops** · 16-02-10, 00:01

Originally posted by DrJFF View Post

so i looked at how much he had left on the turn when i was pondering and tried to decide wat would be a good river bet, he had roughly 9k if my memory serves me correctly, so i thought 5950 was good cos he wouldn't want to make too marginal a call and leave himself crippled, he was pokerstars qualifer and prob his first big enuf buy in tourney and might fold out some marginal calls(like Ace lol)

if you're going to bluff the river, setting him in (9k) is much better than 6k imo.

people will fold more often when its for the lot, esp when it's a decent tourney and he's a qualifier. people have notions; even if a v marginal call will leave them crippled, that they are still in, with a bit of luck, a double-up or 2, that they may get back in it etc etc

i'd actually prefer a small v bet like 3k than 6k

ul anyway - those big draws never get there!

**DrJFF** · 16-02-10, 00:06

Originally posted by bops View Post

if you're going to bluff the river, setting him in (9k) is much better than 6k imo.

people will fold more often when its for the lot, esp when it's a decent tourney and he's a qualifier. people have notions; even if a v marginal call will leave them crippled, that they are still in, with a bit of luck, a double-up or 2, that they may get back in it etc etc

i'd actually prefer a small v bet like 3k than 6k

ul anyway - those big draws never get there!

yeah i agree, setting this particular opponent in would be better than any bet amount

i know FML why could i not have 9T one time, i would even take 9Toff lol

**Mellor** · 16-02-10, 03:10

fold everywhere imo

**DrJFF** · 16-02-10, 03:15

Originally posted by Mellor View Post

fold everywhere imo

why, elaborate

**Line Us** · 16-02-10, 11:06

Originally posted by DrJFF View Post

when the turn hit the 8 i checked he bet so quick i knew he was weak, that is why i considered just popping him here and thought about just jamming all in or raise/calling(which would suck), but came to the decision that calling i can bet some many rivers and win the pot why risk my stack on the turn, the board is 73hh8Jdd, i can bet any river 4-Q, any diamond and any heart, thats more than half the deck,

he will/should find folds with hands that he is not always going to fold on the turn or the flop,

Just thought I'd comment on your turn call and your reasons for doing it. I think you played the hand fine until the turn against the opponent given the read that he is aggro and seems to cbet multiple streets often. On this turn though I think its very important to check raise. You have to bet your equity here given that you think he is weak often. The problem with calling is that on the majority of rivers you will have 6 high on a board where alot or all of the draws have missed so your fold equity will be low if you attempt to bluff. The 8 on the turn is a great card for your range also, alot of hands that you peeled the flop with will have improved to pair + gutter, 2pair, the nuts etc. This is the street where your ranges raw equity and fold equity will be maximised so you have to get it in here. Also if you do hit a heart on the river you wont get paid enough which is another reason to get the money in here.

so when the J hit the river this is obviously a bad card for him and a good one for me imo, he will/should check alot Jacks back on the turn for pot control and imo the only value hands in his range on the turn is a weird 9T or a set, sure he will be bad enuf to value town AA-99, and Jx some of time but it just didn't feel like that

I dont agree that the J on the river is good at all for you, sure he wont have a J often here but neither will you, if anything its going to let hem call you down lighter if you do donk the river

so i looked at how much he had left on the turn when i was pondering and tried to decide wat would be a good river bet, he had roughly 9k if my memory serves me correctly, so i thought 5950 was good cos he wouldn't want to make too marginal a call and leave himself crippled, he was pokerstars qualifer and prob his first big enuf buy in tourney and might fold out some marginal calls(like Ace lol),

I rather shove the river too if I was going to bluff, polarise your range as much as possible.

I had 64hh btw,

i am suprised nobody suspected 9Thh, just on a sidenote

Probably because you would never play 9h10h like this.

anyone else has any comments or questions fire away!

didn't proof read i'm sorry

Originally posted by Mellor View Post

fold everywhere imo

I think this is definitely a good option too for this hand pre but once we get to the flop i think checkraising good turn cards versus aggro players wil be the best line.

**TommyGunne** · 16-02-10, 11:24

I can't say how bad your river bet is without resort to hyperbole, but suffice to say that its atrocious. Its just an awful awful line. Checking is so so much better with your entire range. There is no hand that you should donk this river with imo.

Pre is a definite fold, and a limp-raise would be very weird. I guess it wouldn't be awful. I think calling once you've limped is pretty standard, but limping in the first place is not good. In fact its very bad.

Flop is fine. I don't like raising here with this hand 200bb deep. Its a lot different if he's more likely to felt 1 pair, but he probably isn't 200bb deep. Your reasoning for setting up your flop ranges isn't too good. C/r that flop with air is very very silly. You have so many gutshots and small fds that you can check/raise. My first post in which I said c/r big fds was bad though, you can just call them and check/raise the small ones. I'd be checkraising sets here a very high % of the time. Saying that your range is made up of entirely bad hands is crazy. If thats the case don't c/r that flop at all. But its better to get money in with your sets and balance it with the baddish draws you have.

On the turn, you soul read him for being a bit light. Fair enough. Just jam. Really easy game. There is no upside to calling. If you think his range is lighter than usual this is the most awesome time ever to jam turn. You definitely fold better fds, you get him to fold all his air, which has good equity against you, you get him to fold a hell of a lot of one pair hands, including OPs, and you always have some equity. Not only is calling and donking a lot of rivers a bad line in general, but with your hand you will lose some value when you spike your flush, and get called very light when you don't, cos your line is very bad, and reps a bluff or missed draw pretty hard. With your hand you can take a very nice line on the turn, you recognise this, and then you go ahead and call a big draw against a light range on the turn when you only have like 25%? Seriously, you seem to have recognised all the things that can help you make a good decision, and then you go ahead and follow through with bad logic.

I guess that this is the only card in the deck that it might be semi-ok to donk river, but you had planned to donk river on like 50% of the deck.

EDIT: Hadn't seen Line Us' post, but yeah what he says about the turn as well.

**smoothcall** · 16-02-10, 11:55

vg post Line Us, who were you on boards if you dont mind? Also good post TommyGunne but sure I expected that.

**danutpeddler** · 16-02-10, 13:06

I never bluff missed draws anymore vs agro players in big pots, find i get called 99% of the time.

There is nothing bad agro players like more than the hero call. In their head they are trying to convince themselves to call and all they need is a small reason.
Missed draws, even the board pairing are good enough reasons for these guys.

I'm wondering, would you ever take this line ever in a HU cash game? If you did you'd soon stop feeling sick from all the snap calling.
I find with your limpcalling range being so wide, agro villains play pots like this similar to HU cash so you should ajust accordingly.

This can also happen in blind on blind/ button on blind situations

Also semibluffing > donk bluffing.

Op can you elaborate on your c/ring flops point? Interested to know what you're going on about here.

**Line Us** · 16-02-10, 14:33

Originally posted by smoothcall View Post

vg post Line Us, who were you on boards if you dont mind? Also good post TommyGunne but sure I expected that.

Used to post as suilen.

Actually I meant to say that when I read this hand first i thought it was gonna be one of those threads where DrJff was actually the villian and he snapped called the river with King high or something.

**DrJFF** · 16-02-10, 15:33

Originally posted by Line Us View Post

Used to post as suilen.

Actually I meant to say that when I read this hand first i thought it was gonna be one of those threads where DrJff was actually the villian and he snapped called the river with King high or something.

yeah i can see your points ty for your response,

and nutpeddler i don't like c/r this flop too often because it leaves awkward stack sizes behind and i don't want to 3bet/call this flop with this particular hand and i would just call with my entire range and i said i would be more likely to raise with air or a gut-shot(when in actual fact i would very very seldom do this)

and tommygunne my river bet is bad cos i have 64hh but if i had a value hand i would extract the max, so it cannot be that bad

**Line Us** · 16-02-10, 16:16

Originally posted by DrJFF View Post

and tommygunne my river bet is bad cos i have 64hh but if i had a value hand i would extract the max, so it cannot be that bad

Just on this again, with all your value hands,( J's, full houses, straights, slow played overpairs rarely) you will have already got the money in before the river, I dont think you play any of them like this, thats why he called. Also if you had a value hand here you would more than likely check again on the river rather than bet surely? The only hand I can think of that this mite be ok with is maybe 1010 for thin value and even then I'd probably check call the river mostly. I think its just a case that you will never be able to balance this line proberly because you wont have enough made hands in your range to balance against the busted draws.

**ShipIt** · 16-02-10, 16:28

Originally posted by DrJFF View Post

yeah i can see your points ty for your response,

and nutpeddler i don't like c/r this flop too often because it leaves awkward stack sizes behind and i don't want to 3bet/call this flop with this particular hand and i would just call with my entire range and i said i would be more likely to raise with air or a gut-shot(when in actual fact i would very very seldom do this)

and tommygunne my river bet is bad cos i have 64hh but if i had a value hand i would extract the max, so it cannot be that bad

Dont think ur 3bettng.

Yes but u dont have a value hand , if u had then it would be an ok line.

My 1st reply was that I would never and hate playing any combo of draws like this against this villan, it also seems like Im the only one that likes a flop check raise/4betAI, or if he flats the flop checkraise, firing every turn...
Id imagine the% of him folding to the flop checkraise is very very high and worth it, and if he does call were putting so much pressure on him on the turn unless he flopped a monster he will fold. It might not be ur style and each to their own but Im happy to play this as aggro as possible and worst off if we do get it in on the flop were flipping unless he flopped a set or higher FD, but imo by playing this way the fold equity on the flop and if so turn is worth it, especially after u read him for weak.
FWIW, if I did play it like this I never fire the river, also think the J is not a bad card for him.

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