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    Avoidable Situation?



    Okay so due to some advice im gonna be posting more and more hands i feel i could of done better on in hope that in the long run it will make me a better player

    so first stage of a STG 8 players remaining, early position pick up AK

    raise 4 times the big blind first had id played and get 4 callers, spike top pair on a relativley draw free board and stick in another 265 (value bet) next player reraises all in i call

    hit a king on the turn but my top 2 pair isnt eough to beat his trip 8's

    Could i have avoided this situation?
    and what would of been a better play here?
    Last edited by BrianByrne; 08-02-10, 23:17.
    Disaster - Dreamcrusher

    #2
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B48D60wH8gA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B48D60wH8gA[/ame]

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      #3
      Originally posted by BrianByrne View Post


      Okay so due to some advice im gonna be posting more and more hands i feel i could of done better on in hope that in the long run it will make me a better player

      so first stage of a STG 8 players remaining, early position pick up AK

      raise 4 times the big blind first had id played and get 4 callers, spike top pair on a relativley draw free board and stick in another 265 (value bet) next player reraises all in i call

      hit a king on the turn but my top 2 pair isnt eough to beat his trip 8's

      Could i have avoided this situation?
      and what would of been a better play here?
      im only new to poker so to speak. but i honestly dont think u can avoid an allin here.
      pockets are fairly hard to put people on imo. and u have top 2 pair what can u say its just ul.

      same hand happened to me in a live event where i was 4 away from the money. so i just put it down to ul.

      but i will look forward to hearing some more thou on it.
      http://www.sitnpoker.com/?amigosid=18

      Comment


        #4
        mehh
        not much you could have done there
        as played

        cooler

        just one thing you were utg here right?
        Last edited by Angry-Ball; 09-02-10, 00:02.



        "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

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          #5
          Never getting away from it, just standard cooler
          They show up there with AQ, AJ etc and theres the people who think its good to bluff with air for whatever reason.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Ziggin&Zaggin View Post
            im only new to poker so to speak. but i honestly dont think u can avoid an allin here.
            pockets are fairly hard to put people on imo. and u have top 2 pair what can u say its just ul.
            He has top pair. Just thought I'd point out the money was in on the flop.

            OP, this is just a cooler, you weren't getting away from that. He rarely has a set there (shoving a set was pretty poor by him)


            But, advice for future hands,
            copy the hand history, and run it through a convertor. It's better than post the screens grabs from the last two hands.
            Take out results also. It was irrelevant here. But if the decisions was closer the results affect peoples advice and opinions.

            Comment


              #7
              Soul read and know he has trips!

              <Flop is extremly hard to get away from the turn woulda had ya anyway.>

              Comment


                #8
                Cooler, ul, move onto the next hand, nothing else you can do.
                We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is not an act, but a habit.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Cooler. Folding top pair top kicker in an stt is a mistake unless the board is unbelievably scary. When that top pair is an A it's an even bigger mistake as worse aces stack off.

                  Only thing I do different is raise smaller pre (3 bigs).
                  My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by doke View Post
                    Only thing I do different is raise smaller pre (3 bigs).
                    you see normally i would, but the past hand i posted, id raised 3xbb early on so blinds were the same, and i was advised to raise higher 4/5bb
                    Disaster - Dreamcrusher

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by BrianByrne View Post
                      you see normally i would, but the past hand i posted, id raised 3xbb early on so blinds were the same, and i was advised to raise higher 4/5bb
                      I don't think the larger raise is necessarily a mistake, it's more a question of preference/style. I generally standardise my raises to 3x with no antes, 2.5x with, and the only time I diverge from that is when it gets shallow and I want to play it clear I'm not folding to a reship.

                      These comments apply to freezeouts. In cash games and rebuys there's a much stronger argument for raising more imo.
                      My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by doke View Post
                        I don't think the larger raise is necessarily a mistake, it's more a question of preference/style. I generally standardise my raises to 3x with no antes, 2.5x with, and the only time I diverge from that is when it gets shallow and I want to play it clear I'm not folding to a reship.
                        What's the idea behind making a smaller raise with antes.
                        I tend to be quite rigid with my raises, and use 2.5 and 3 also. But is different situations to yourself

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                          What's the idea behind making a smaller raise with antes.
                          I tend to be quite rigid with my raises, and use 2.5 and 3 also. But is different situations to yourself
                          I'm generally opening lighter with antes so folding to a reraise more often/raising purely for value less often. Also the stacks tend to be shallower at that point so the smaller raise more or less just as likely to get through as the larger ones while leaving you with more wriggle room if you do get reraised or reshipped on. Also has knock on effects on the bet sizing on later streets if it comes to that. That's my default style with antes but of course it's always situational and dependent on table dynamics. For example, if I'm at a table of young aggro Internet Scandi kids and I believe their perception of me is as an old rock, I might stick to 3x if I think it'll keep them believing I have a hand every time for longer into the antes period whereas dropping down to 2.5x might alert them to the fact that I'm playing a more internet LAG style game now. Or I might go the other way and chuck in a few min raises if I feel they'll be interpreted as old schooler trying to get action with a monster. If I feel the smaller raises are getting less respect than the traditional 3x, I'll revert to 3x. It's also heavily dependent on effective stack sizes. If I'm going to have to make a crying call if I get reshipped on, then I'll increase the bet size to remove the illusion of fold equity. If I have players who I think will interpret a bigger bet size as weak behind, I'll raise more with my genuine hands.
                          Last edited by doke; 09-02-10, 06:09.
                          My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

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                            #14
                            Thanks Dara,
                            A lot of that would be similar to my reasons for dropping to 2.5 late in tourneys. With the exception of opening lighter with antes. I'd open lighter with antes, but because of the extra in the pot I tend to keep the raise at the 3 level regardless of antes and dropping down when I normally would at shallow stacks

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by doke View Post
                              I don't think the larger raise is necessarily a mistake, it's more a question of preference/style.
                              Hi Dara, it was me who said to raise 4/5 times BB UTG early in a small stakes tournaments on iPoker. As you can see by how many callers he got in both hands, I stand by the advice. Obviously the guy with 88 is never folding, but there's too many random bullshit hands that need to be forced out in these.
                              "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

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                                #16
                                Dara i was watching you when you came 6th in that goldstar vip the other night and around the ft bubble yourself and pokerduude were picking up alot of pots with just a minraise, i started throwing that play into some games, its amazing what % of the time this gets through the same as a 2.5x raise and if it dosent the flop can be c-bet/folded for less. obviosly for the regs the 3bet is the new steal but surely there will come a stage when it does a uturn and the 3bet will only be monsters again. It cant stay the same neway, never does, there will be another step in this preflop war soon i reckon. What do you think?

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by AndyFB View Post
                                  Hi Dara, it was me who said to raise 4/5 times BB UTG early in a small stakes tournaments on iPoker. As you can see by how many callers he got in both hands, I stand by the advice. Obviously the guy with 88 is never folding, but there's too many random bullshit hands that need to be forced out in these.
                                  I think that's fair enough in a small stakes MTT when it's still relatively deep, but in an STT you're generally not that deep with a starting stack of 1500 and the well known tight-is-right optimal strategy. If you open for 200 at 25/50, get called behind, then fire in a 200 cbet on a flop you miss and have to fold to a reraise, you've done over 25% of your stack. Chip preservation is very important in the early stages of an STT so I'm quite happy to keep the pot smaller pre and essentially play AK as a drawing hand. I don't mind getting multiple callers in this situation as it's often from hands you dominate that'll stack off with top pair worse kicker while the normal 3x range is sufficient to deny those hands and other assorted junk the implied odds to hit two pair or better.

                                  For that matter, I'm quite happy to play AK as a drawing hand early on in MTTs too.
                                  My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Irish Iron View Post
                                    Dara i was watching you when you came 6th in that goldstar vip the other night and around the ft bubble yourself and pokerduude were picking up alot of pots with just a minraise, i started throwing that play into some games, its amazing what % of the time this gets through the same as a 2.5x raise and if it dosent the flop can be c-bet/folded for less. obviosly for the regs the 3bet is the new steal but surely there will come a stage when it does a uturn and the 3bet will only be monsters again. It cant stay the same neway, never does, there will be another step in this preflop war soon i reckon. What do you think?
                                    Yeah, the min raise is a play I originally started using in stts in the early levels when it was folded round to me and there were just multitabling regs playing robotically behind. Those guys are either interested or they're not (usually not: just playing monsters early) and will fold exactly the same % of hands to 2x or 4x. Therefore it's profitable to min with atc even though you're nearly always folding to a reraise or giving up post flop if called.

                                    Similar "either always interested or not at all" conditions often arise in online mtts around bubbles so I use that play a lot when there are guys who seem to have locked up behind. As you said, it gets through as often as 2.5x (and even 3x) deep in online mtts. To be honest I was surprised at how often the play worked in that particular tourney as it was for Supernova Elites, but I guess a lot of Stars supernova elites are not big mtters.

                                    The 3bet is definitely the new steal online: I quickly stop opening light in late position if there's a couple of good online mtters behind as you pretty much always get 3 bet. In those spots I tighten right up and open only with hands I'm hoping to get 3bet with. Also I've noticed the position the resteal is most likely to come from is the small blind.

                                    These things definitely swing in cycles. Most of the chips that propelled me to a WSOP ME ticket in a Stars satellite last year came from three betting the likes of Ivan Demidov very light when he opened in late position. Now everyone's doing it, it seems. I've already made the readjustment and stopped opening light in mid to late pos with good regs behind but I'm amazed at the number of regs who haven't. It's only a matter of time before they all wise up though and then the light 3 bet will be the loser play for a while.

                                    Things don't really evolve as fast live though, and all these plays work. Also against the fish who luckbox their way deep in a big online mtt and then get scared or spazzy.
                                    My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Nice post again Dara, just on a couple of things.

                                      Originally posted by doke View Post
                                      The 3bet is definitely the new steal online: I quickly stop opening light in late position if there's a couple of good online mtters behind as you pretty much always get 3 bet. In those spots I tighten right up and open only with hands I'm hoping to get 3bet with. Also I've noticed the position the resteal is most likely to come from is the small blind.
                                      This is why 3betting in position (when relatively deep) is so good, it forces people to your right to play more straight forward against you from then on, they have to adjust and most people will do this by tightening up there opening range which means that it will be folded to you in position more often. Bad players will react by calling some 3bets and giving up alot which is also a positive. Obviously good players will adjust by widening there 4bet range but its still going to be pretty easy to play against with a polarised 3betting range.


                                      Originally posted by doke View Post
                                      These things definitely swing in cycles. Most of the chips that propelled me to a WSOP ME ticket in a Stars satellite last year came from three betting the likes of Ivan Demidov very light when he opened in late position. Now everyone's doing it, it seems. I've already made the readjustment and stopped opening light in mid to late pos with good regs behind but I'm amazed at the number of regs who haven't. It's only a matter of time before they all wise up though and then the light 3 bet will be the loser play for a while.
                                      The last part about 3betting light turning into a losing play is the only bit I disagree with you about. Its a play that will always be +ev for reasons posted above even against good regulars, unless your doing it at too high of a frequency which is obvious to everyone.
                                      "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

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                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by doke View Post
                                        I think that's fair enough in a small stakes MTT when it's still relatively deep, but in an STT you're generally not that deep with a starting stack of 1500 and the well known tight-is-right optimal strategy. If you open for 200 at 25/50, get called behind, then fire in a 200 cbet on a flop you miss and have to fold to a reraise, you've done over 25% of your stack. Chip preservation is very important in the early stages of an STT so I'm quite happy to keep the pot smaller pre and essentially play AK as a drawing hand. I don't mind getting multiple callers in this situation as it's often from hands you dominate that'll stack off with top pair worse kicker while the normal 3x range is sufficient to deny those hands and other assorted junk the implied odds to hit two pair or better.

                                        For that matter, I'm quite happy to play AK as a drawing hand early on in MTTs too.
                                        Fair enough. I see what you're saying about this hand being a drawing hand this early on. However, I think you run into bullshit hands at this level often enough to make it worth raising the extra early on. That might just be my confirmation bias, but I've been burned too many times. For example, in this hand I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if villain turned over 68o.

                                        FWIW, this is only at the 10/20 and 15/30 stages I'm talking about. At 20/40 and above raising 3x is fine. It just has to be enough to get respect from the fishiest of fish and the value callers who follow with ATC. The extra digit seems to garner more respect.
                                        "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Line Us View Post
                                          The last part about 3betting light turning into a losing play is the only bit I disagree with you about. Its a play that will always be +ev for reasons posted above even against good regulars, unless your doing it at too high of a frequency which is obvious to everyone.
                                          I'd agree with Dara. Saying 3Betting light will always be +EV is wrong. The games changes, if people start opening a tighter range from MP then its not going to be profitable to 3 light. However, you'll get hand more unopened pots in LP so the steal becomes more important and more profitable.
                                          Then obvious, it becomes profitable to open light from MP, and the light 3bet is back in again.

                                          It's cyclic, always has been and will be imo.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Forget tightening your opening range and just 4bet shove light. Embrace the variance

                                            Opr
                                            Last edited by Opr; 11-02-10, 21:44.

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                                              #23
                                              Don't really agree with doke here. Its all on the road to balance. I guess thats kind of what he means though.

                                              Originally, people were opening far too light and nobody was reacting correctly. Smart players then started to 3b light a load to exploit. People are noticing this more, and so are now reacting more aggressively to 3bets. To sum it up, better players are becoming more balanced, and even the worse ones.

                                              The correct adjustment, as doke mentions, to getting 3b light is to open less, 4b more, and call more 3bets. The correct adjustment to people opening lighter is to call more, 3b more. So at a very good table you just have to try to be balanced. You can't get away with not opening light. You can't get away with opening too light. You can't get away with not 3betting light, and you can't get away with doing it too much. You basically just have to try and be more balanced. Going to one extreme (like only 3betting nut hands as someone mentioned) is extremely unbalanced and very easily exploited. Game is just getting tougher, and you have to react by being more balanced.
                                              Foldaramus et foldarabimus

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