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somewhat interesting hand form the EDSPC last month

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    somewhat interesting hand form the EDSPC last month

    Early on ( 3rd or so level) very deep stacks. I cant remember exact bet sizes - but in fairness with the stacks as they were - it's irrelevant. I'm more interested in the action.

    MP opens for 3X
    Folded to me on the Btn with QQ. I 3 bet - probably about 2.5X
    SB folds
    BB calls
    MP folds

    Flop Q43 rainbow
    BB leads
    I raise
    BB re-raises
    I call

    Turn 9
    BB leads
    I call

    River 4
    BB leads a fairly small bet (about 30%pot)

    Hero?


    Reads are somewhat irrelevant IMO as we were all playing a little off the wall. I had been fairly active, the villain was a little tighter than me.

    #2
    re raise again on flop, you have top set and hes betting into you.
    raise on turn

    raise on river youve filled up. unlucky he had 44, just a cooler
    Last edited by eamonhonda; 13-03-14, 00:38.
    airport, lol

    Comment


      #3
      Why raise flop?
      We have position - I'm possibly folding out bottom/middle sets/straight draws/2 pair

      Why raise turn?
      We have position - I'm possibly folding out bottom/middle sets/straight draws/2 pair

      What if he re-raises/shove the river?

      We're confident he's got bottom middle set after flop action - correct?
      Last edited by newbie2; 13-03-14, 00:54. Reason: added river question and the word possibly

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by newbie2 View Post
        Why raise flop?
        We have position - I'm folding out bottom/middle sets/straight draws/2 pair

        Why raise turn?
        We have position - I'm folding out bottom/middle sets/straight draws/2 pair

        What if he re-raises/shove the river?

        We're confident he's got bottom middle set after flop action - correct?
        yeah im re thinking it with you saying stack sizes being very deep.

        Id still personally try and raise the turn, hes still calling with a set imo.

        Again personally, I cant see myself not trying to get all the cips in with a house
        airport, lol

        Comment


          #5
          4-bet otf. There is so much button clicking early on in these tournaments when very deep, you should just keep building the pot.

          Comment


            #6
            imo you played it perfect. Raise call obv if he has 44 well pay the man
            People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
            Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
            https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by newbie2 View Post
              Why raise flop?
              We have position - I'm possibly folding out bottom/middle sets/straight draws/2 pair

              Why raise turn?
              We have position - I'm possibly folding out bottom/middle sets/straight draws/2 pair

              What if he re-raises/shove the river?

              We're confident he's got bottom middle set after flop action - correct?

              Flop. I dont think you fold out any of these hands really (you CERTAINLY dont fold out a set, let alone middle set! not sure if you are being serious.) but obv dont mind just flatting his reraise in position.

              You say it doesnt matter re stack sizes but if we are billions deep I would raise the turn, guy looks like he wants to get lots in, Id give him that chance.

              River? Raise. I dont think there is any case for flatting if thats what you are suggesting?

              Comment


                #8
                Re-raise the flop , the turn and the river . If he has the 4's then vul .

                Comment


                  #9
                  I raise the turn. We have the best hand and are deep. Build it.

                  On the river, even with a really tight range like AA, 44 or 33, we are only losing 10% of the time.
                  It sounds like the game is loose enough at this stage that flatting is a mistake. But its just nitty, its not detrimental or anything.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by newbie2 View Post
                    MP opens for 3X
                    Folded to me on the Btn with QQ. I 3 bet - probably about 2.5X
                    SB folds
                    BB calls
                    MP folds

                    Flop Q43 rainbow
                    BB leads
                    I raise
                    BB re-raises
                    I call

                    Turn 9
                    BB leads
                    I call

                    River 4
                    BB leads a fairly small bet (about 30%pot)

                    Hero?
                    I know you say stack sizes and reads are irrelevant, but they're not. Lets assume you both have 140k and blinds are 100/200 (3rd level), then based on your assumption that his turn bet of 30% is small, then the action could have went something like.

                    MP opens to 600, you make it 1500, BB calls, MP folds

                    Flop Q43 (3700)

                    He leads 2000, you make it 5200, he makes it 12000, you call

                    Turn Q439 (27700)

                    He leads 13000..

                    I'm not sure how different you'd play AA or KK here, but i'd imagine it's the same way this deep, so when you flat the flop, there's no reason why these hands aren't in your range. The flop is perfect this deep. He has a hand he wants to get it in with by the looks of the turn, unless he's played 56 strong or is a retard with AQ/KQs. Just raise the turn and then we don't have a 'tricky' decision on the river, because it's not really.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I don't mind your line on flop and turn because if you put another bet in on either you risk slowing him down

                      On the other hand if he has a lesser house (and I think 43 is highly likely here) you are missing value

                      And in fairness you are putting him on a big hand

                      So I think you simply have to raise the river taking this kind. Nicky power had a blog post where he mentioned a very similar spot recently where he flatted and was correct, but there would have to be a very specific history to make that play profitable

                      As it is he's shown the strength of a big hand, but statistically you're almost never behind that hand and you stand to make a killing against the rest of his coolered range so you have to raise and do the loots if necessary

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                        I don't mind your line on flop and turn because if you put another bet in on either you risk slowing him down
                        Hand was 3bet preflop. And villain chose to lead turn after having his flop 3bet called. I can't see how another bet on the turn is going to set off some huge alarm bell.

                        On the other hand if he has a lesser house (and I think 43 is highly likely here) you are missing value
                        You really think 43 gets through to the turn with that pre and flop action?
                        Last edited by Mellor; 13-03-14, 22:24.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          what did he lead for on the flop? Anyone else flatting a big donk bet on flop no?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            No, I missed pre 3 bet tbh

                            Albeit that fact means 33 and 44 slightly less likely

                            looking at it again I think he has a lot of pocket pairs in his range though and most of these should fold to another bet in the circumstances


                            I'm not saying another bet is bad, I just don't mind the line taken

                            I suppose it comes down to how much value you lose to lesser houses versus scaring off a third bet to a villain who's just stabbing at the pot with a pair. Bearing in mind it's very deep and players have been playing a lot wider and looser as a result.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                              I suppose it comes down to how much value you lose to lesser houses versus scaring off a third bet to a villain who's just stabbing at the pot with a pair. Bearing in mind it's very deep and players have been playing a lot wider and looser as a result.
                              Once OP calls the turn turn lead. Actually, once he calls the flop 3 bet, he should get very little more money from villain with mid pocket pairs. He might fire a final bullet on the river as a blocker (likely what happened in the OP) but these chips are <<<<<<< than the chips we win when he has a hand that aligns with the strength he has shown.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                but these chips are <<<<<<< than the chips we win when he has a hand that aligns with the strength he has shown.
                                Save for the fact that we should be able to get these chips with an over bet on the river anyway? I mean if he has a house he is almost never folding to any river action. I'd say less than 2 per cent of players are capable of folding a house there (maybe a higher percentage to a massive shove)

                                Edit - I should say you make a good point that villain with a pp is unlikely to fire again on river once called on turn anyway though
                                Last edited by 8611; 13-03-14, 23:43.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  stack sizes are the basis of all our decisions, they dictate how we play a hand how opponents play their hand etc, flat flop 3b( think raiseing his donk is fine we wanna build a pot), flat turn, since you say its very deep stacks i just go for whatever value you think you can get from his range which is most likely AQ/KQ/QJ/QT and throw in AA/KK aswel given you said you've been playing a little off the wall and he could of decided to trap you with them, i doubt we get his whole stack unless he has a set and i highly doubt he's donking middle or bottom set and is more likely to be overplaying the initial range ive given. maybe just 2.5-2.8x his river bet and snap call if he shoves.

                                  gonna guess he had AA for the lulz.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                                    Save for the fact that we should be able to get these chips with an over bet on the river anyway?
                                    From the OP I took it that we are very deep. The above would only be true if the turn bet was all-in. In which case its irrelevant which street they go on, or if the chips always went in, which they don't.

                                    Getting an extra bet in on the turn could mean the final pot is twice as big if the bets are half pot sized, even small 30% bets will mean a 60% bigger final pot.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Just some extra info for anybody who wants it.

                                      Effective stacks at the start of the hand = 600 big blinds

                                      I'm not sure preflop action - this deep - has much bearing on the rest of the hand.

                                      Hand range after the flop?

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Any reads are always relevant. Even stuff like if he's capable of value betting thinly etc.

                                        Bigger pre this deep and if they are all just calling so often 3-3.5x

                                        As played your line is perfect IMO up until the river providing he's decent. If you think he's bad then raise turn.

                                        As played using Flushdraws pot size etc

                                        MP opens to 600, you make it 1500, BB calls, MP folds

                                        Flop Q43 (3700)

                                        He leads 2000, you make it 5200, he makes it 12000, you call

                                        Turn Q439 (27700)

                                        He leads 13000..


                                        Raise river to 35k and fold to a raise.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Call flop/raise turn seems like an inferior line choice.
                                          Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            I played this exact hand at 25/50 with 20k starting stack in the first hand of an emop in Portugal. When i say exact i mean i had QQ and the board ran out exactly the same.
                                            Guy called my button 3 bet from the blinds.
                                            Check raised my flop bet. (Original raiser folded after calling pre)
                                            Bet the turn and i flatted
                                            He bet shoved the river with 34ss.

                                            I thought about folding for about 2 seconds.
                                            twitter
                                            moneybookers

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by GaryT View Post
                                              Any reads are always relevant. Even stuff like if he's capable of value betting thinly etc.

                                              Bigger pre this deep and if they are all just calling so often 3-3.5x

                                              As played your line is perfect IMO up until the river providing he's decent. If you think he's bad then raise turn.

                                              As played using Flushdraws pot size etc

                                              MP opens to 600, you make it 1500, BB calls, MP folds

                                              Flop Q43 (3700)

                                              He leads 2000, you make it 5200, he makes it 12000, you call

                                              Turn Q439 (27700)

                                              He leads 13000..


                                              Raise river to 35k and fold to a raise.
                                              Bet folding the river here would be pretty horrific IMO.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                You played it nearly exactly how I would have only I raise him on the turn. I have been known to make some sick reads and for me personally if I would really have to be at the table, most will say that you should be looking to get it in but for me if I feel that there is a good possibility of villain having 44, I will be just flatting but my decision will be based on physical reads, there is nothing wrong with flatting if you think that he could have 44 and you trust your own instincts and capabilities.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                                                  You played it nearly exactly how I would have only I raise him on the turn. I have been known to make some sick reads and for me personally if I would really have to be at the table, most will say that you should be looking to get it in but for me if I feel that there is a good possibility of villain having 44, I will be just flatting but my decision will be based on physical reads, there is nothing wrong with flatting if you think that he could have 44 and you trust your own instincts and capabilities.
                                                  So if he doesn't have 44/33 what do you gain from raising? I mean if you have a read that he has 44 it means you should be more likely to raise than flat right?
                                                  Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                                                    So if he doesn't have 44/33 what do you gain from raising? I mean if you have a read that he has 44 it means you should be more likely to raise than flat right?
                                                    TOMMY! <3 <3 Where have you been???
                                                    "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Reads are important. Stack sizes are important. Bet sizing is important. Your image, history with villain, dynamics are all important. Without paying attention to these factors the game becomes more like bingo. Unless you're drinking, then it's grand

                                                      I heard some lad went all-in in this tournament with TT...preflop...in lvl 1. Don't ever concern yourself with folding out sets. Raise again on the flop and be happy. Vs a lot of players from this field you're likely to get action from the case Q let alone sets.
                                                      It's all an illusion

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        ooops

                                                        forgot about this.

                                                        Anyway I flatted river convinced he had 44. He tabled 34 and I felt like an eejit. It generated some debate at the table at the time.

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