Announcement

**The Istanbul** · 02-02-10, 15:03

Firstly congrats Connie-now my tuppence:

Day 1-- I have a good image. I get QQ utg. I raise 525 (blinds 100-200, effictive stacks 20k). Loose button flat calls, aggressiver scandie in sb raises to 1450. I think and r/r to 3950, he thinks and makes it 11.5k. Action?
He has played out 1 other hand very similar to this already, against another aggressive scandie, when it went raise,bet, r/r, rr/r and 5 bet all-in by him, opponnent folded so no hands seen.

YOU HAVE 3RD BEST STARTING HAND IN HOLD-EM;YOU'VE REPRESENTED STRENGTH IN YOUR UTG RAISE AND YOUR RR(AND YOUR IMAGE) AND HE HAS STILL EFFECTIVELY PUT YOU ALL-IN. FOLD-ACES OR NUTS(HIM!).

Day 1
I'm after dropping in chips to 13.5k. blinds are 400-800, ave must be about 30k ish. Scandie on my right in the c/o opens for 2600. I look down at KK. BB is a good player who has about 15k approx. I'm trying to figure out whats the best option, as I know the scandie doesnt need a hand here (and in all probability has nothing) and I'm afraid if I push in now I might lose my chance to make some more chips that I badly need. Also, theres a chance that the bb, aware of the history between me and the scandie, might decide to squeeze, so although It might scream strength, I decide to just flat otb. Who likes/dislikes?

ARE YOU HAPPY TO GO BROKE OR DOUBLE-UP HERE (IE IF FLOP COMES A HIGH AND HE BETS ARE YOU SHOVING? IF SO YOUR PLAY IS A REASONABLE ONE, GIVEN YOUR 16BB STACK. YOUR ALTERNATIVE OF RR TO PICK UP 3800 IS THE ONE I WOULD TAKE AS THIS IS ADDING 25% TO YOUR STACK FOR LESS RISK (IE YOU FLAT AND BB IS PRICED IN)

Day 2.
Back on day 2 with 22k. Hit nice enough cards that hold up and at the end of the 1st blind level, I'm up to 75k and ave is 68k. 85 players left out of 300.
2nd blind level, folded to me otb. I have Kd-Jd. Blinds are 1,000-2,000, 200 ante. I make it 5,200. Scandie youngish in sb makes it 14,800 to go out of a 39k stack. Action back to me?

??FOLD-YOU CANT JUST CALL AND HE HAS NO FOLD EQUITY. DO YOU WANNA GO BROKE WITH THIS SHITE.

Sunday EMOP 1 day side event-€200 f/o, 7,000 chips, 20 min clock.

Early on, and I'm in gambling mode. I'm very fixed in my head today that the scandies are not going to 3 and 4 bet me liberally, and in fact, I've decided that if anyones going to apply pressure today, then Its gonna be me. I'll try and get them in first and let them be making the decisions. I've already done this a few times early in the tournament when this hand comes up.
There is 3 or 4 very poor spannish players on the table, and a few scandies who of course want to be in the pots with them. 3 of the spaniards linp for 200, followed by 3 scandies. Ave stack is about 8 or 9k, I'd say I have about 13k. I have 88 on the bb and I make it 1950 to go. Fold, fold, 3rd spannish limper shoves for 8 or 9kish, all fold back to me. Action?

CALL GIVEN THE ACTION AND THE DEAD MONEY IN MIDDLE-STILL LIKELY TO BE RACING OF COURSE.

Final table.
ICM and me are not great friends

. So I'm sure someone like doke or others can help me out here.
I havent mentioned this hand in ant of the reports, but its the 1 hand from yesterday that has me thinking. (I know I went on to win the tourney, buit thats results based thinking, and Im not really into that.)

!0 players get paid.
Payout structure is something like
10-400
09-600
08-800
07-1000
06-1200
05-1600
04-2000
03-3000
02-4000
1st-6,800.
Really, I wanted to win (dont we all!!), but just folding to go up the pay ladder wasnt an option. Whatever decisions I was to make, it would be the best way for me to get into a winning position.

So we lose 2 players early on the FT. It really is a crapshoot now, 8 players left, ave stack is 95k. I have 100k, cl to my direct left has about 170k, 1 other scandie has about 150k, the rest are shorter.
UTG+1 shoves all-in for 80k (blinds are 4000-8000, 1000 ante, so 20k in the middle and an average M of 4).
I'm utg+2 and I have 88. I look around the table, and the only player i think is showing interest in whats happening is the scandie with 150k.
I figure I can put these in here, and probably be racing, and take my chances.
I also think that if this guy does have a hand behind me (there is 5 to act behind me), i could be toast. But what better chance am I gonna get? Blinds are going up shortly. Im also aware that if I keep my 100k together, I can open push that with atc and mostly get it through. I just havent been given the oppertunity to do that yet, as the action has been hectic since the FT started.

What are the different reasons behind whatever is the correct decision here?

I PREFER RAISING WITH ATC THAN CALLING OFF MY STACK HERE PARTICULARLY GIVEN YOUR READS THAT YOUR SHOVES WILL GET THROUGH. IF YOU CALL YOU ARE LIKELY TO BE RACING.
Connie[/QUOTE]

**FeetMagic** · 02-02-10, 15:15

Originally posted by connie147 View Post

Day 1-- I have a good image. I get QQ utg. I raise 525 (blinds 100-200, effictive stacks 20k). Loose button flat calls, aggressiver scandie in sb raises to 1450. I think and r/r to 3950, he thinks and makes it 11.5k. Action?
He has played out 1 other hand very similar to this already, against another aggressive scandie, when it went raise,bet, r/r, rr/r and 5 bet all-in by him, opponnent folded so no hands seen.

In the other hand you mention was it the villain in your hand that 4bet folded or was he the scandie that 5bet shoved?
My standard here would be to flat call the 1450. We'll have position if the button folds which he should do alot. I don't like the 4bet because it leaves us with a tough decision if the scandie 5bets as he could be capable of doing it with a lesser hand than ours but we have no info yet to tell us this.
As played I guess fold.
Just a note as it comes up here time and time again. When you decide to 3bet/4bet or even raise you should always know your next action if you're opponent plays back. So in this situation before you 4bet him you should be thinking of every scenario that can play out and how you'll play each one and then decide is 4betting the correct play. I have a feeling you did have a plan but just making a note of it

Originally posted by connie147 View Post

Day 1
I'm after dropping in chips to 13.5k. blinds are 400-800, ave must be about 30k ish. Scandie on my right in the c/o opens for 2600. I look down at KK. BB is a good player who has about 15k approx. I'm trying to figure out whats the best option, as I know the scandie doesnt need a hand here (and in all probability has nothing) and I'm afraid if I push in now I might lose my chance to make some more chips that I badly need. Also, theres a chance that the bb, aware of the history between me and the scandie, might decide to squeeze, so although It might scream strength, I decide to just flat otb. Who likes/dislikes?

I don't think the BB will ever squeeze here without a big hand tbf; it's pretty obvious you're not folding. Are there antes in play? Either way I think I'm just shoving as he'll probably call with any decent hand and if not you're still picking up ~3800. I definitely don't dislike the flat call though; I don't think this hand can be played bad.

Originally posted by connie147 View Post

Day 2.
Back on day 2 with 22k. Hit nice enough cards that hold up and at the end of the 1st blind level, I'm up to 75k and ave is 68k. 85 players left out of 300.
2nd blind level, folded to me otb. I have Kd-Jd. Blinds are 1,000-2,000, 200 ante. I make it 5,200. Scandie youngish in sb makes it 14,800 to go out of a 39k stack. Action back to me?

Folding is the only option for me. Can't see the scandie folding after that bet and I don't fancy getting in a ~80k pot with KJs. Just fold and take note of it imo.

Originally posted by connie147 View Post

Sunday EMOP 1 day side event-€200 f/o, 7,000 chips, 20 min clock.

Early on, and I'm in gambling mode. I'm very fixed in my head today that the scandies are not going to 3 and 4 bet me liberally, and in fact, I've decided that if anyones going to apply pressure today, then Its gonna be me. I'll try and get them in first and let them be making the decisions. I've already done this a few times early in the tournament when this hand comes up.
There is 3 or 4 very poor spannish players on the table, and a few scandies who of course want to be in the pots with them. 3 of the spaniards linp for 200, followed by 3 scandies. Ave stack is about 8 or 9k, I'd say I have about 13k. I have 88 on the bb and I make it 1950 to go. Fold, fold, 3rd spannish limper shoves for 8 or 9kish, all fold back to me. Action?

I absolutely hate the raise size. No one is going to flat call it, they're either folding (nearly always) or shoving (and if they do it leaves us looking like an idiot unless we snap). If you wanted to take down the 1500(?) chips just shove, which is definitely what I'd have done. I'm calling here all the same, just really dislike the raise.

Originally posted by connie147 View Post

So we lose 2 players early on the FT. It really is a crapshoot now, 8 players left, ave stack is 95k. I have 100k, cl to my direct left has about 170k, 1 other scandie has about 150k, the rest are shorter.
UTG+1 shoves all-in for 80k (blinds are 4000-8000, 1000 ante, so 20k in the middle and an average M of 4).
I'm utg+2 and I have 88. I look around the table, and the only player i think is showing interest in whats happening is the scandie with 150k.
I figure I can put these in here, and probably be racing, and take my chances.
I also think that if this guy does have a hand behind me (there is 5 to act behind me), i could be toast. But what better chance am I gonna get? Blinds are going up shortly. Im also aware that if I keep my 100k together, I can open push that with atc and mostly get it through. I just havent been given the oppertunity to do that yet, as the action has been hectic since the FT started.

What are the different reasons behind whatever is the correct decision here?

Connie

I've never worked with ICM so have no knowledge of it and I'm sure the others will give a clear answer to your question but my view would be that this is a fold.

**bops** · 02-02-10, 16:07

hi connie and congrats!

1 fold - even a scandi gets a hand now and again!
2 i like - raising is safer but as you said you need chips
3 fold - you could peel one off ip, but i think its a bit spewy
4 yuk call - i'd think i'd check pre, but your raise is too big whick nearly commits you to calling any of the 8k stacks
5 with regds icm its def a fold, if you are in a gambly winner takes all humour, getting 'em in here isn't that bad, 99 TT JJ are about all you don't want to see here

gl

**scouser in dub** · 02-02-10, 20:32

idk that I'm qualified to comment here but anyway congrats

1) If I am folding to a jam I am calling the raise in position trying to keep his range as wide as possible and deciding post this may be bad but given he only ever shoves or folds that we have QQ here seems kinda irrelevant

2) I like I think calling and stacking off on any all flops is better than jamming

3) seems close if he is good enough to know that raising 1/2 his stack looks stronger here I would be tempted to get it in and I am not sure that is terrible. That said the raise looks massive and it's prob a fold.

4) I call here like he has limped behind two others 50bb's deep and your raise seems to large to include the top of your range I expect to be dominating / racing way more than I expect to be dominated

5) I will leave those with a better understanding of ICM, I suspect that ICM dictates a fold but I am guessing that ICM is going to have some flaws expecially with short stacked fast paced structures. Like ICM assumes equal ability, that you are prob better than the majority may actually suggest a fod, but it's kinda hard to realise your ICM $ev when you are forced to make -Cev decisions. This may not be the case here but Idk exacty how useful the model is in these situations

**TommyGunne** · 03-02-10, 10:25

Hand 1: You can't 4b fold. You can either 4b/call or just call the 3bet. You need to make up your mind before you 4b. In a tourney format, I think I call the 3b, but taking your line and getting it in is fine too I guess.

Hand 2: Fine. I'd usually shove, but maybe calling is better. Depends a little on your image, but theres certainly nothing wrong with calling.

Hand 3: Ugh. I'd have just open jammed myself. As much as I hate it, I'm not folding here. We only need like 31% or so. Main point is that I'd be in shove/fold mode here, and if for some reason I wanted to open small, KJs is a hand I wouldn't open from MP, I'd polarise more.

Hand 4: SNAP! I just check my option though....

Hand 5: I have no idea in these spots, and would be as interested as you. I think I just fold though.

**connie147** · 03-02-10, 19:40

Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post

Hand 1: You can't 4b fold. You can either 4b/call or just call the 3bet. You need to make up your mind before you 4b. In a tourney format, I think I call the 3b, but taking your line and getting it in is fine too I guess.

Hand 2: Fine. I'd usually shove, but maybe calling is better. Depends a little on your image, but theres certainly nothing wrong with calling.

Hand 3: Ugh. I'd have just open jammed myself. As much as I hate it, I'm not folding here. We only need like 31% or so. Main point is that I'd be in shove/fold mode here, and if for some reason I wanted to open small, KJs is a hand I wouldn't open from MP, I'd polarise more.

Hand 4: SNAP! I just check my option though....

Hand 5: I have no idea in these spots, and would be as interested as you. I think I just fold though.

Thnks for the replies lads. I wont address everyones individually, I'm just gonna give my thoughts and what i done, and then accept all the criticism on the chin.

1.

I did 4 bet fold. I was sorry I didnt flat his 3bet in position. I suppose I was guilty of not having a decision made as to what would i do if I got reraised, that was mainly because I felt 100% sure that he wouldnt continue in the hand. (bad read!!) But was it such a big mistake to fold here (you say I should never). I still had my starting stack and its early enough in the tourney? Advice sought!!

2.
The call here with the KK was for a couple of reasons. I was hopefull that a nice looking hand in the bb might like to take his chances here with a squeeze play, and also, with the scandies raise frequency in the c/o, i was afraid i would fold out too many of his hands if i shoved pre. I wasnt folding on any flop, even including an ace. So, I suppose unlike hand 1, I had a plan for this hand, and it was to try and double my short stack. (flop came 10-6-3 rainbow, c/o had A-6 and he set me all-in on the flop (snappage).

3.
I dont understand about the shove/fold mode here in hand 3. I have 75k, blinds are 1k-2k, and i have a strongish holding otb. Why should I be in shove/fold mode? these are hour long blinds, I have a little more than average stack. Surely a normal raise is right here? And I wasnt in MP, I was otb. The main thing I'm trying to figure out is am i 4 betting the sb's r/r with KJ when it looks like he is pot committed with his reraise?

4.
I did snap here over the spanniards r/r all-in. There was a lot of that stuff going on when the spaniards entered the pots. The scandies were very anxious to play pots with them (the spannish were so bad it was untrue). I decided that once i made such a big raise, i wasnt letting it go, as none of them had any more than a starting stack. One of the early limpers had about 4k, and i was hoping it was he would chance pushing. I also wanted the scandies to know that they werent going to let into these spannish pots cheaply. Anyway, the r/raiser all-in turned up with A-6 and mhig.

5-
This is the one where I'm hoping doke, nicnicnic or someone with some deep
theory knowledge at this point of the game can help. I did tank up for a couple of minutes. My thought process was as in the op. I was aware that one of the cl's was showing an interest in the hand, because as I was sweating the shover, his gaze never left the original shover. I just felt that at best, i was racing against the all-in guy, and at worst, the guy behind me could have me in deep trouble. With the blinds going up, an open shove from me would collect about 45k if uncalled, and i felt I had enough chips to do that and hopefully not run into a hand. (in fact, I did push 3 hands in a row straight afterwards and shot up to 200k). I folded the 88, and the scandie did call with Ah-10h. Still dont know if this was the right or the wrong move at the time, hense posting it. Results based thinking makes it right because I went on to win, but most of us are aware that results based thinking is useless.
Another think that helped me make up my mind to fold this hand was the amount of time i took to figure out my options. I figured as it took me so long, I was also advertising a marginal hand. Yes/no? (an instant shove would probably have intimated a stronger holding?)

connie

Announcement

A few EMOP hands (holdem tourney)

A few EMOP hands (holdem tourney)

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment