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Old 15-11-16, 16:27   #1
aidankk
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Blind on Blind late

Seems like a pretty standard spot to me, but i did feel like bit of a fish straight after.

About 13-14 left in tourney and we are in the money. As a slight consideration i would be somewhere between 0 and 2% caring about laddering etc. I'm not sure but i think there is 7 maybe 8 at our table.

Blinds 10k 20k 2k ante

me 365k bb about 340

folded to me and i just shipped with a8. "free money thinking the bb would want a massive hand to call".
He though for ages and called with A10 " he probably knew my form at this stage and had correctly worked out a10 would be well ahead of my range, still gutsy call"

Of course dealer save's me with 8 high flop, but that doesn't matter really.

AS is said it seems standard enough to me against a player who's re raising in this spot would be very frequent ( if i have just raised 2.5x or something)
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Old 15-11-16, 17:02   #2
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Were you SB?

Edit - nvm read the title stupid!


10bbs insta shove for me - 18bbs not so sure....
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Old 15-11-16, 18:23   #3
The Aul Switcharoo
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Congrats on the win and you're welcome for the 8

Big blind had 400k and you had 350k I think so just over 17bigs and 7 handed play.

BB was TAG. Didn't do too much out of line.

Awkward spot tbh
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Old 15-11-16, 18:48   #4
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This is a ten mins maths problem, or 2 mins with something like icmizer. Shoving is definitely profitable.
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Old 15-11-16, 19:00   #5
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Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
This is a ten mins maths problem, or 2 mins with something like icmizer. Shoving is definitely profitable.
I would agree but it doesn't make it optimal. R/F would be best imo

Last edited by brady23; 15-11-16 at 23:36.
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Old 15-11-16, 19:02   #6
aidankk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Aul Switcharoo View Post
Congrats on the win and you're welcome for the 8

Big blind had 400k and you had 350k I think so just over 17bigs and 7 handed play.

BB was TAG. Didn't do too much out of line.

Awkward spot tbh
Thanks

Feck fair play to ya for the 8 ball on the flop.

I was left thinking about hand a bit. Weird thing is if i just had the 56 clubs or something like that (which is what id normally have in that spot(my normal hand range of knocking people out)) i wouldn't even be thinking about it.

My thought was raising to 46k or something here is just setting it on fire as BB will push with a huge range and i wont be calling with a8, so i said f it.
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Old 15-11-16, 19:05   #7
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I would agree but it doesn't make it optimal. R/F would be best imo
You could be right , but against this player there may be a bit too much folding to an all in. (he knows at this stage that i could have anything ) Id have no problem r/f against a player that will just re raise with a premium - ish hand.
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Old 15-11-16, 19:10   #8
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You could be right , but against this player there may be a bit too much folding to an all in. (he knows at this stage that i could have anything ) Id have no problem r/f against a player that will just re raise with a premium - ish hand.
Well if you feel his jamming range is that wide then maybe a R/C is optimal? Switch described him as TAG so R/F could be best given that description.

Last edited by brady23; 15-11-16 at 23:36.
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Old 15-11-16, 20:51   #9
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Reads on the BB are critical here. Age/recreational/reg/on-line background/history/their perception of you...

This info will inform how they are likely to react to any BvB hand vs. you. There is a mathematically correct un-exploitative answer to this hand in a vacuum.

Live, in game, my choice between limping, 2.7x fold to re-raise, 2.7x raise to induce, limp re-raise, and jamming depends on reads of opponents tendencies.
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Old 15-11-16, 22:49   #10
chips1234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
This is a ten mins maths problem, or 2 mins with something like icmizer. Shoving is definitely profitable.
this all day. raise folding seems weak unless BB is the nittiest guy in the tourney. and raise calling if BB is aggro. other than that its a super profitable jam.
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Old 16-11-16, 12:57   #11
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Raise folding looks pretty weak to me as well and it makes the situation pretty complicated

It's a profitable jam SB Vs BB long term

So I'd just keep it simple and jam pre
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Old 16-11-16, 21:38   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brady23 View Post
I would agree but it doesn't make it optimal. R/F would be best imo
The optimal option (between shove and r/f) depends on the minute details of the players, prizes, and stacks.
R/F may be better is some spots, but it's also exploitable. Shoving is a lot more black and white.


As it stands, I don't think anyone can offer more detailed analysis of the hand other than "it's probably grand". Without having the info mentioned above.
The Aul Switcharoo, can you elaborate anything?
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Old 16-11-16, 21:58   #13
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The optimal option (between shove and r/f) depends on the minute details of the players, prizes, and stacks.
R/F may be better is some spots, but it's also exploitable. Shoving is a lot more black and white.


As it stands, I don't think anyone can offer more detailed analysis of the hand other than "it's probably grand". Without having the info mentioned above.
The Aul Switcharoo, can you elaborate anything?
I couldn't agree more. Obviously in a vacuum and perhaps even in game, I shove but no harm discussing the alternative.
I suggested R/F "would be" a better option but probably more "could be" based on what we know.
Celtic poker ME (assume its the same Aidan) TAG bb 3-4 spots from FT. I just felt standard rec players won't be stepping out of line here too often and perhaps we have a significant enough edge that a R/F is more profitable.

Just got 1 outered for CL in Big 55 so I hate poker

Last edited by brady23; 16-11-16 at 23:57.
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Old 17-11-16, 10:25   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellor View Post
The optimal option (between shove and r/f) depends on the minute details of the players, prizes, and stacks.
R/F may be better is some spots, but it's also exploitable. Shoving is a lot more black and white.


As it stands, I don't think anyone can offer more detailed analysis of the hand other than "it's probably grand". Without having the info mentioned above.
The Aul Switcharoo, can you elaborate anything?
when you say optimal ,what exactly do you mean ?

optimal what?

haven't done any math on it but raise folding seems like a terrible line to me !

effective stacks 15BB,we make it 3x from the SB and fold for another 12BB !!!

so we have to call 12bb to win 18 bb(not factoring in antes) so we are getting 1.5:1 which means we need 40% equity to break even.

ill be shocked if we don't have 40% at least versus his shove range,which makes raise fold a really bad line !
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Old 17-11-16, 12:56   #15
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I had played with villain for about 3-4 hours at the end of Day 1 in this and he seemed fairly aggro so I would definitely just have been jamming here. Seems like a slowroll with A10 tbh.

Grats on the score Aidan.
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Old 17-11-16, 16:46   #16
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Originally Posted by Gholimoli View Post
when you say optimal ,what exactly do you mean ?

optimal what?

haven't done any math on it but raise folding seems like a terrible line to me !

effective stacks 15BB,we make it 3x from the SB and fold for another 12BB !!!

so we have to call 12bb to win 18 bb(not factoring in antes) so we are getting 1.5:1 which means we need 40% equity to break even.

ill be shocked if we don't have 40% at least versus his shove range,which makes raise fold a really bad line !
Optimal as in more profitable long term vs certain villains.
There is obviously not argument with it being profitable.

Given what Jamie just said I wouldn't argue with shoving being the best line. I would say vs certain opponents that r/f could be a better line.

Effective stacks were 17bbs
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Old 17-11-16, 22:10   #17
Mellor
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Originally Posted by Gholimoli View Post
when you say optimal ,what exactly do you mean ?

optimal what?[
When I say optimal I mean, exactly that. The best line some might call it. As in the line with the highest EV. I might be missing something, what else could it mean? In terms of , rather than chips if that's what you are getting at.


Quote:
haven't done any math on it but raise folding seems like a terrible line to me !
effective stacks 15BB,we make it 3x from the SB and fold for another 12BB !!!
so we have to call 12bb to win 18 bb(not factoring in antes) so we are getting 1.5:1 which means we need 40% equity to break even.
ill be shocked if we don't have 40% at least versus his shove range, which makes raise fold a really bad line !
It's 18BBs (villain covers in the correction).
The equity we need to breakeven calling a 3bet shove is probably a bit higher than 40%. It could be higher than 50% depending. We are in the money stage. Chip equity is no longer equity.

I haven't done the numbers on it either. To be clear I wasn't advocating RF, or any other line. I was just pointing out to make a calculation on it, we need other info.

Working out precise EV's for the different lines, is not just about verses their calling range, 3bet shove range, and how A8 holds up. It's more so about how the outcomes affect our equity. To work out that, we'd need to have clearer picture of the field.
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Old 17-11-16, 22:39   #18
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Raise folding is very bad.
Just jam it in, it's a no brainer,you have 17bb. Don't see what all the fuss is about, standard shove.
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Old 18-11-16, 11:45   #19
aidankk
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I had played with villain for about 3-4 hours at the end of Day 1 in this and he seemed fairly aggro so I would definitely just have been jamming here. Seems like a slowroll with A10 tbh.

Grats on the score Aidan.
Thanks . Yeah i played with him for a lot of day 2 and he played a fair few more hands than i did ( which means way to many), and was certainly aggressive enough id imagine to make the RF line a looser against him.

I only asked really as i felt somewhat of a fish ( not the first time), but really its only because i sucked out on a good call from the villain.

A10 is a definate call v my ship range , and in fairness to him he knew that the minute i shoved and said as much. Still fair play to him for actually making the call.

The general consensus appears to agree that shove is best, 2-3 bb's either way makes it a much simpler. 21bb's i'm not shoving 14-15 i certainly am. 17-19 looks on the line to me.

Thanks for the excellent responses, it was well worth asking the question.
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Old 18-11-16, 12:04   #20
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Originally Posted by Mellor View Post
When I say optimal I mean, exactly that. The best line some might call it. As in the line with the highest EV. I might be missing something, what else could it mean? In terms of , rather than chips if that's what you are getting at.



It's 18BBs (villain covers in the correction).
The equity we need to breakeven calling a 3bet shove is probably a bit higher than 40%. It could be higher than 50% depending. We are in the money stage. Chip equity is no longer equity.

I haven't done the numbers on it either. To be clear I wasn't advocating RF, or any other line. I was just pointing out to make a calculation on it, we need other info.

Working out precise EV's for the different lines, is not just about verses their calling range, 3bet shove range, and how A8 holds up. It's more so about how the outcomes affect our equity. To work out that, we'd need to have clearer picture of the field.
ok so ur looking for the line with most EV.

optimal is often used these days in reference to GTO which is game theory optimal which is concerned with not giving away EV as oppose to gaining EV.

17 BB effective stacks and we say the antes add up to 1BB as well so:

we make it 3x from SB and BB shoves for another 14BB so:
6BB+ 1BB(antes)=7
so we have to call 14 to win 14+7=21BB
we are getting 21/14=1.5:1 odds
so our breakeven point is the 40% equity mark .

say BB jams with 22+,Ax,K8s+,K9o+,JTo+,QTo+ (to me this is a reasonable range for an aggro guy to jam in SB v BB situation ) .
don't have stove here but i would guess the above range is top 25-30% of hands.

A8o has 46% v top 25% and does slightly better versus top 30% and has 48% equity.

while i agree that cEV is not the same as $EV here,i still don't think we can pass 6% to 8% edges .
in a closer spot where your at best 2% edge then perhaps but not here imo.
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