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Old 09-03-12, 05:47   #21
bustamoves
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Originally Posted by Mellor View Post
I think you lost a decent amount of value by making it 50. What range are you repping?
I still don't understand where 17/1 came from either. Still happy with $24, 20's good too
i agree we lose a ton of value when we dont 4bet to somewhere in the range of 24 upwards to say 30 or 32.


but what do you not get about the 17/1? we're talking 'potential' implied odds here, not actual. the actual implied odds always vary from hand to hand. in some hands it transpires to be 3/1 implied odds in others in transpires as 6/1, others 17/1. now as a general rule of thumb we're looking for around 20/1 implied odds (we should know its only 'potential') when we wanna set mine. the reason we look for 20/1 is because we already know villian doesnt always stack off and know we wont get anything like 20/1 actual return everytime but as long as we on average get more than 8/1 we'll make money overtime.

so it's important we raise big so as to reduce those 'potential' implied odds to a point where it now becomes a poor long term propostion for mr. tighty to set mine with his pairs for e.g. or call with sc's

20's good too[/QUOTE]

needless to say....

it think making 20 is bad and maybe even worse than making it 50

Last edited by bustamoves; 09-03-12 at 06:40.
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Old 09-03-12, 05:54   #22
Hectorjelly
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Originally Posted by bustamoves View Post
so what is your verdict? sry if i missed it along the way but what do you think now was the optimal line/betsize etc how would u play it differently?
I haven't had a chance to come back to this, it's pretty late so will do so tomorrow
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Old 09-03-12, 05:57   #23
Hectorjelly
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Originally Posted by bustamoves View Post
i agree we lose a ton of value when we dont 4bet to somewhere in the range of 24 upwards to say 30 or 32.


but what do you not get about the 17/1? we're talking 'potential' implied odds here, not actual. the actual implied odds always vary from hand to hand. in some hands it transpires to be 3/1 implied odds in others in transpires as 6/1, others 17/1. now as a general rule of thumb we're looking for around 20/1 implied odds (we should know its only 'potential') when we wanna set mine. the reason we look for 20/1 is because we already know villian doesnt always stack off and know we wont get anything like 20/1 actual return everytime but as long as we on average get more than 8/1 we'll make money overtime.

so it's important we raise big so as to reduce those 'potential' implied odds to a point where it now becomes a poor long term propostion for mr. tighty to set mine with his pairs for e.g. or call with sc's

20's good too


Yeah, I probably should have said that earlier. The deeper I am against a good player OOP, the more concerned I am with giving him implied odds. The thought of giving a decent player great odds in position here terrifies me, because I know how profitable it is for him long term.
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Old 09-03-12, 07:09   #24
Mellor
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Originally Posted by bustamoves View Post
but what do you not get about the 17/1? we're talking 'potential' implied odds here, not actual.
I know what implied odds are. I get the concept.
I'm asking how yoy got 17/1 when we make it 24
BB has $50, tight player has $100. With $6 in already. Making it 24 means its 18 more. Max he can win is 156 (maybe a few $ over it either has a bit more)
156/18 is just over 8.5/1. Thats his absolute max potential return. So I can't figure out this 17. Which is why I've asked a few times.

Also if you make it 30 or 32 and BB shoves. It's an underraise. We can't reship. Now I don't think the other will flat half his stack often. It's a situation I want to avoid.

Quote:
it think making 20 is bad and maybe even worse than making it 100
100 is basically shoving, how is that better than 20 or anything?
20 > 32 imo


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
Yeah, I probably should have said that earlier. The deeper I am against a good player OOP, the more concerned I am with giving him implied odds. The thought of giving a decent player great odds in position here terrifies me, because I know how profitable it is for him long term.
As above, the max return for him is 8.5, I don't think thats anything to be terrified of.
Often it goes in preflop. When it doesn't we have roughly a pot sized bet left (when it's 24)
I don't think he can make this profitable tbh
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Old 09-03-12, 16:27   #25
bustamoves
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Originally Posted by Mellor View Post
I know what implied odds are. I get the concept.
I'm asking how yoy got 17/1 when we make it 24
BB has $50, tight player has $100. With $6 in already. Making it 24 means its 18 more. Max he can win is 156 (maybe a few $ over it either has a bit more)
156/18 is just over 8.5/1. Thats his absolute max potential return. So I can't figure out this 17. Which is why I've asked a few times.

Also if you make it 30 or 32 and BB shoves. It's an underraise. We can't reship. Now I don't think the other will flat half his stack often. It's a situation I want to avoid.


100 is basically shoving, how is that better than 20 or anything?
20 > 32 imo



As above, the max return for him is 8.5, I don't think thats anything to be terrified of.
Often it goes in preflop. When it doesn't we have roughly a pot sized bet left (when it's 24)
I don't think he can make this profitable tbh
obv a little confusion here that doesnt help

1. BB has 100 BBs (not $50-HJ clarified this immediately in the second post) and original raiser has 200BBs (that was pretty clear i would have thought)

2 I said raising to 20 was bad maybe even worse than raising to 50 as was the actual case in the hand (yes i originally typed 100 by mistake but i thought i had edited/corrected that pretty much straight away)

so hope that clears things up? Does it?

(btw, not being smart just genuinely asking because the original post was a bit confusiing and i had to PM HJ to edit it as i was confused myself)
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Old 10-03-12, 03:46   #26
Mellor
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Originally Posted by bustamoves View Post
obv a little confusion here that doesnt help

1. BB has 100 BBs (not $50-HJ clarified this immediately in the second post) and original raiser has 200BBs (that was pretty clear i would have thought)
Yeah I know BB has 100BBs, as you said that was pretty clear. But that changes nothing I've said though.

This hand is 25/50c so 100BBs is $50. (HJ made it $50 to put him in).
It says it in the title plus the initial raise was $1.50

Last edited by Mellor; 10-03-12 at 03:48.
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Old 10-03-12, 06:51   #27
bustamoves
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Yeah I know BB has 100BBs, as you said that was pretty clear. But that changes nothing I've said though.

This hand is 25/50c so 100BBs is $50. (HJ made it $50 to put him in).
It says it in the title plus the initial raise was $1.50
that changes everything, apologies
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