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Old 07-03-12, 02:38   #1
Hectorjelly
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Weird spot 25 50

Maniac fish is to my right. His 3bet stat must be over 80%. He has rebought about 5 times. He gets it in very light, but does fold to 4 bets sometimes (which tend to be shoves for some reason). So i'd say he gets in any good broadway cards/pairs, but isn't going to call all in for 100bbs with 45s.

Tight player that has been kind of pissing me off has 200bbs. He raises to 1.50. We haven't tangled in about 24 hours. I don't really know how good he is, he may be just running well but he has won more than his fair share of pots vs me. I have no notes on him which means we didn't get to many showdowns.

I'm in the small blind with aces. The maniac fish is on the BB. I don't know what he will do if I 3bet, but I know what he is likely to do if I flat call! Maniac has 100bbs.

I flat call, he 3bets to 6 as expected, then the tight player calls. so about 18 in the pot. Fish has 95 bbs left, tighty has 194. I cover them both. How much do I make it?

Last edited by Hectorjelly; 07-03-12 at 03:03.
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Old 07-03-12, 03:02   #2
Hectorjelly
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Just to make the action clear

Tight guy makes it 1.50

I call on sb with aces.

Maniac makes it 6 on BB. he has 94 big blinds left.

Tight guy calls. He has 194 big blinds left.

It's back to me. How much do I raise? I have them both covered.




Cheers to bustamoves for pointing out I made a mistake

Last edited by Hectorjelly; 07-03-12 at 03:05.
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Old 07-03-12, 03:35   #3
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i go for a bigger than normal raise here. i'd prob make it 32 happy in the knowledge that maniac fish is still gonna call or even better reshove. the reason i dont make it smaller is because i dont want to give potentially ok implied odds to tight guy should we make it say 24 and maniac calls and he overcalls with his pairs.
the problem is our hand should be face up as a big premium pair to mr. tighty given our line so let him take poor odds to set mine with his pairs and or the opportunity to make a big mistake by reshoving with AK, KK, QQ

i think maniac fish wont necessarily see our line as a reg would and so i think we can make it this big and know that he's been prone to call (and moreso since we havent shoved)
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Old 07-03-12, 04:01   #4
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Originally Posted by bustamoves View Post
the reason i dont make it smaller is because i dont want to give potentially ok implied odds to tight guy should we make it say 24 and maniac calls and he overcalls with his pairs.
The manaic has been 3betting 80% of hands and getting it in light. I don't think'll he be flatting much. And will prob fold or 5bet.

I'd keep the 4bet pretty normal in the hope that tight guy thinks he can isolate.
PSB to 24 for me
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Old 07-03-12, 04:12   #5
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The manaic has been 3betting 80% of hands and getting it in light. I don't think'll he be flatting much. And will prob fold or 5bet.

I'd keep the 4bet pretty normal in the hope that tight guy thinks he can isolate.
PSB to 24 for me
I really don't think 3betting is good here. If I manage to shut out the fish it's a disaster. Playing aces out of position to a decent player 200bbs deep is not a very profitable spot to be in. I really, really want to keep the bad player in, and I also think that there is a far better chance of the tight player putting a lot of money in bad preflop when the maniac is involved.
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Old 07-03-12, 04:14   #6
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Originally Posted by Mellor View Post
The manaic has been 3betting 80% of hands and getting it in light. I don't think'll he be flatting much. And will prob fold or 5bet.

I'd keep the 4bet pretty normal in the hope that tight guy thinks he can isolate.
PSB to 24 for me
overcall/backraises in these conditions scream qq+ to anyone with half a clue which we assume mr. tighty will have and fish wont process either way.

if we make it 24 and fish happens to flat mr.tighty has only 18 to call with the potential to stack both us and the fish. we're 200 and the fish is 100 and he can potentially get 17/1 on his call. this is far too good, we need to price him out by raising bigger pre IMO

Last edited by bustamoves; 07-03-12 at 04:31. Reason: 25/1 should have been 17/1
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Old 07-03-12, 05:04   #7
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I really don't think 3betting is good here. If I manage to shut out the fish it's a disaster. Playing aces out of position to a decent player 200bbs deep is not a very profitable spot to be in. I really, really want to keep the bad player in, and I also think that there is a far better chance of the tight player putting a lot of money in bad preflop when the maniac is involved.
I didn't suggest that we 3bet the tight player.

Or did you mean 4betting. So you are suggesting a flat call here? Sorry if I'm not following you. It's 5pm, im nearly finished work and my brain is fried atm

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Originally Posted by bustamoves View Post
if we make it 24 and fish happens to flat mr.tighty has only 18 to call with the potential to stack both us and the fish. we're 200 and the fish is 100 and he can potentially get 17/1 on his call. this is far too good, we need to price him out by raising bigger pre IMO
We don't want to prive him out. We have AA, we want his money in the pot
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Old 07-03-12, 05:24   #8
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If I give the tight player 17:1 implied odds out of position with a very tight range it's him who is making a long profit not me.
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Old 07-03-12, 07:16   #9
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make it 20 as it may still give the fish the illusion that you might fold to a shove. If he calls which I expect him to you could make a really gay bet on most flops e.g. 10 and then get the rest in on the turn where he will pretty much have to call with anything
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Old 07-03-12, 08:59   #10
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Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
If I give the tight player 17:1 implied odds out of position with a very tight range it's him who is making a long profit not me.
Why at we saying 17/1 odds? The odds are 2/1 when we PSB. the max implied odds are 17/1, but saying we give him 17 is a bit over the top. That's only the case if the manaic always flats pre, and we always stack off to the tight player. And the maniac always stacks off also.

I still don't understand your point about not raising. That's offering significantly better odds. About 50/1
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Old 07-03-12, 09:22   #11
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I'd just bet a standard 4bet amount + an extra $3/$4 on top.
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Old 07-03-12, 10:13   #12
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Originally Posted by Bubbleking View Post
make it 20 as it may still give the fish the illusion that you might fold to a shove. If he calls which I expect him to you could make a really gay bet on most flops e.g. 10 and then get the rest in on the turn where he will pretty much have to call with anything
This kind of play would prob work against the fish but the tighty (who has much more money) who has been playing with us regularily will know that this is a weird play and suspect something. Won't suspect us of spazzing out, will more likely put us on a tight range that's looking to hook the fish.

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I still don't understand your point about not raising. That's offering significantly better odds. About 50/1
It's not just the odds that HJ is on about, it's the odds vs a tight range (I think). If we flat he's getting 50/1 or whatever but can't put us on any kind of range. With the fish in the BB we could be calling with anything from suited connectors up.

I'd mix between re-raising to $20ish and really hope for a shove from the BB and flatting and checking out the flop looking for a decent sized bet from the BB. If BB flats a re-raise and the BTN calls too we've a really awkward pot size of $60 with BTN playing just over $80. Looks like it'd have to be a open shove on the flop regardless. With a flat call and a flop bet from the BB we can't put the BTN on too much and will prob end up getting it in on most flops. In both scenarios we're just hoping that the BTN doesn't hit too hard, in the flat call one we're more likely to get all-in vs just top pair tho .
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Old 08-03-12, 05:03   #13
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It's not just the odds that HJ is on about, it's the odds vs a tight range (I think). If we flat he's getting 50/1 or whatever but can't put us on any kind of range. With the fish in the BB we could be calling with anything from suited connectors up.
Yeah exactly, I'm not giving 50:1 implied odds if I just call preflop because my hand range is so wide - I can almost have any two cards. There is a significant advantage to having the best possible hand in my hand range, However, if I make a 3 bet my hand range becomes immediately very narrow. Tight guy can call and play a pot in position deep against someone with a very small range. If I was him I'd call with anything I raised with - Unless I make a huge 3bet, which is terrible with the maniac between us anyway.
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Old 08-03-12, 05:07   #14
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I flatted the original raise and then just made it $50 to go (putting the maniac all in) when it came back to me (tighty just called the 3bet.) They both folded quickly. I was hoping the tight player might think I was isolating against the fish and make a loose call; maybe a smaller raise would be better? In all probability they both probably had pretty bad hands.
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Old 08-03-12, 07:52   #15
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Don't really like the sizing. Even the fish is going to fold most of his hands there. I don't think a raise to 100bbs looks like an isolating raise at all.
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Old 08-03-12, 09:44   #16
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Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
I flatted the original raise and then just made it $50 to go (putting the maniac all in) when it came back to me (tighty just called the 3bet.) They both folded quickly. I was hoping the tight player might think I was isolating against the fish and make a loose call; maybe a smaller raise would be better? In all probability they both probably had pretty bad hands.
Hate that sizing. Fish has a huge range and you want to keep as much of that in as possible. Make it $20 or so.

You really shouldn't have been focusing on the tight player.
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Old 08-03-12, 10:53   #17
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I think you lost a decent amount of value by making it 50. What range are you repping?
I still don't understand where 17/1 came from either. Still happy with $24, 20's good too
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Old 08-03-12, 13:28   #18
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Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
I flatted the original raise and then just made it $50 to go (putting the maniac all in) when it came back to me (tighty just called the 3bet.) They both folded quickly. I was hoping the tight player might think I was isolating against the fish and make a loose call; maybe a smaller raise would be better? In all probability they both probably had pretty bad hands.
Take my advice with a pinch of salt as I'm out of touch with NLH, that being said, I think there's good merits to making a smaller 3b size than your standard size, it won't really polarize your range and will often look like you're going for a cheap squeeze to try and isolate the maniac, I think a smaller than standard 3bet size has a better chance of achieving the desired results imo.

We give them no room to get fancy or spazz out with a 4b shove.
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Old 08-03-12, 15:10   #19
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Hate that sizing. Fish has a huge range and you want to keep as much of that in as possible. Make it $20 or so.

You really shouldn't have been focusing on the tight player.
I was more concerned with the tight player, I really didn't want to give him the correct implied odds to call. I hated my sizing too, which is why I posted the hand!
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Old 08-03-12, 15:50   #20
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I was more concerned with the tight player, I really didn't want to give him the correct implied odds to call. I hated my sizing too, which is why I posted the hand!
so what is your verdict? sry if i missed it along the way but what do you think now was the optimal line/betsize etc how would u play it differently?
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