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Old 08-03-12, 20:12   #1
Hectorjelly
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Quick question

This is something that happens to me a lot

TAG raises. I call and then then float the flop with nothing in position. I then turn or river (or both!) an actual hand. If he keeps betting I either call, fold or raise depending on the relative strength of the hand, but if he checks to me I often wonder what value I should assign to not allowing him to see my hand, and see that I've floated him.

Hypothetical example:

TAG raises utg. I call in cuttoff with 25s. Flop is KK7. I call. He checks turn, which is a 2. I check it back. He checks the river. At this point I'm 75/80% sure I have the best hand. But I'm 100% sure the guy won't call a river bet with worse. So a value bet is - EV

Ignore the rest of the hand, and the fact that he may call a min bet with air out of curiosity. Is it worth betting to not allow him to see my hand? The way we played our hands, he can learn more about me as a player than I will about him, given how different our lines are. Does this have a monetary value; and if so what is it?

Assume the reg obv hasn't seen me float him before!
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Old 08-03-12, 20:30   #2
digiman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
This is something that happens to me a lot

TAG raises. I call and then then float the flop with nothing in position. I then turn or river (or both!) an actual hand. If he keeps betting I either call, fold or raise depending on the relative strength of the hand, but if he checks to me I often wonder what value I should assign to not allowing him to see my hand, and see that I've floated him.

Hypothetical example:

TAG raises utg. I call in cuttoff with 25s. Flop is KK7. I call. He checks turn, which is a 2. I check it back. He checks the river. At this point I'm 75/80% sure I have the best hand. But I'm 100% sure the guy won't call a river bet with worse. So a value bet is - EV

Ignore the rest of the hand, and the fact that he may call a min bet with air out of curiosity. Is it worth betting to not allow him to see my hand? The way we played our hands, he can learn more about me as a player than I will about him, given how different our lines are. Does this have a monetary value; and if so what is it?

Assume the reg obv hasn't seen me float him before!
If I though the guy was a reg but he hadn't played with me much before or wouldn't have went to showdown much against him I think it would be good to let him see that you called him with 52s, but this depends on how you want to level him in the future. You could have a lot of fun with him afterwards if he is the type of player that would pick this up and make a note of it. Basically let him use this information but use it against him as miss-information. He is much more likely to triple barrel you with air etc, call your bets so your going to have to adjust your game afterwards.

Works both ways really, so it's player dependent I think. So against some it's going to be worth betting and others it might be worth letting them see. Could make for some really interesting HU games especially against poor players.

BTW this is not a quick question...
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Old 08-03-12, 20:33   #3
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I would have thought that there would have been more value in letting him see your hand than betting to keep it hidden. I mean he'll call your vbets if a hand plays out the same way in future, his mind focusing on the fact that you'll float to TID on a later street but check back if you hit, you could even vbet the bottom pair in future and get paid by AX or maybe even QX.

Disclaimer: I'm clueless though and just wanted to post in one of your threads to see if I'm even in the ball park. Enjoying them btw.
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Old 08-03-12, 20:36   #4
Hectorjelly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digiman View Post
If I though the guy was a reg but he hadn't played with me much before or wouldn't have went to showdown much against him I think it would be good to let him see that you called him with 52s, but this depends on how you want to level him in the future. You could have a lot of fun with him afterwards if he is the type of player that would pick this up and make a note of it. Basically let him use this information but use it against him as miss-information. He is much more likely to triple barrel you with air etc, call your bets so your going to have to adjust your game afterwards.

Works both ways really, so it's player dependent I think. So against some it's going to be worth betting and others it might be worth letting them see. Could make for some really interesting HU games especially against poor players.

BTW this is not a quick question...
Ignore the 52s bit, my hand is irrelevant. It's the fact I floated him on the flop with the definite intention of taking it away from it, I used 52s as it had no showdown value unimproved.

I really don't want people to start triple barrelling me; I'm happy in this regard at the level of information asymmetry.

You're right it's not really a quick question! I have a few hands I was going to post but thought this would be easier whilst playing.
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Old 08-03-12, 20:59   #5
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Are we maybe over-rated the disdvantage of giving up the information to begin with, though? Hypothetically, if we could assume that we are a superior player to the opponent and already have a reasonable grasp of their tendencies and how they think, then is it not possible for us to adjust better to the giving up of info than our opponent does? We may give up information, but our opponent wont necessarily interpret it correctly and we can adjust better than they do and use it against them, reducing the value of the information.

EDIT - What Digiman said basically, I didn't read that reply, sorry!
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Old 08-03-12, 21:10   #6
Denny Crane
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I would have thought that there would have been more value in letting him see your hand than betting to keep it hidden. I mean he'll call your vbets if a hand plays out the same way in future
I think there's much more to lose by him gaining the info that you're floating. Most of the time you're going to have air/weak hands and his adjustments are easy to make.
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Old 08-03-12, 21:35   #7
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why arent we considering the rest of the table?
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Old 09-03-12, 00:26   #8
Hectorjelly
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why arent we considering the rest of the table?
Good point; however at the stakes I'm playing there are usually only 1 or 2 good players at the table; this only really comes up against good players so it's rare there will be many people paying attention. Also people pay far more attention to pots that they are in. Interested to hear your thoughts though...
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Old 09-03-12, 01:02   #9
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You're threads seem kind of weird HJ these days. This seems like a bizarre question to be asking after playing for all these years. Not that i know the answer to it, just that it seems kind of irrelevant or certainly not particularly important anyway.

Also, you should never have "nothing" when you float, you should always have some backdoor or overcards or something,which i'm sure the reg himself would consider standard when he saw your hand. I'm also sure you know all of this already.

Whats happened, have you lost confidence or something?

Genuine question, not trying to troll.
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Old 09-03-12, 01:03   #10
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Obviously keep posting because i and others enjoy reading but something about the threads doesnt seem to match up with what you've been able to articulate on here in the past.
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Old 09-03-12, 05:40   #11
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You're threads seem kind of weird HJ these days. This seems like a bizarre question to be asking after playing for all these years. Not that i know the answer to it, just that it seems kind of irrelevant or certainly not particularly important anyway.
What particular concept do you think I would have known about in the past but aren't sure about now? I decided I needed to be more focused on poker recently, so I've been playing more; took on a few students and started watching some poker videos. I got almost nothing from any video I watched so I decided to start posting hands. I tried for a while on 2+2, here is actually a quote on my experience from a mail I sent to someone earlier:

"The midstakes NLH forum on 2+2 is pretty good, but the advice is geared to mid stakes games where the players are all generally good (so not that applicable to low stakes poker) The high stakes one has so little poker in it as to be redundant, the low stakes one has mainly bad or mediocre advice."

So I decided to start posting here, especially after Zuutroy mentioned that no-one posts cash game hands any more.

Each day I've been trying to post the most interesting hand or difficult hands I've played Often I feel I know the best answer, but it's still a good spot for discussion, sometimes I want other peoples opinions before I decide myself. (I also try and give a mix of hands where I make the wrong and right decisions at the time) I've been 10 tabling for about 5/6 hours a day, and struggle to come up with difficult hands sometimes; so I don't think this it's anything to do with confidence.

I get a lot from these discussions. From explaining to a rude idiot why he's completely wrong http://www.irishpokerboards.com/foru...8&postcount=16

to disagreeing with someone whose opinion I have a huge amount of respect for http://www.irishpokerboards.com/foru...2&postcount=29

The process of articulating your thought process does wonder's for your poker game, it forces you to play in a logical manner. I've also picked up a few good points from some posters that I hadn't considered before.


I'm playing pretty well at the moment, but I'm looking to play better and move up asap. I'm really trying to improve my game against good players, as I already play pretty much perfectly against fish (IMO!). I have developed a tendency to just avoid regs which I didn't used to. I don't mind that as a strategy but it's been something I've been thinking about trying to improve.

I didn't play poker for about 10 months last year whilst I was working for Full Tilt (lol), and when I started back it took me a long time to be able to play with confidence, even at the lowest limits. Before I had played full time for 5 years, so I doubt I'm back to the level I was then; in terms of application. Theory wise I've never been stronger.

This thread in particular I think is a good example. Yeah, it's not a very important question; but its one that I've been thinking about because I'm happy with my knowledge on the more important matters. EG:

Quote:
Originally Posted by colquhom View Post
Also, you should never have "nothing" when you float, you should always have some backdoor or overcards or something,which i'm sure the reg himself would consider standard when he saw your hand. I'm also sure you know all of this already.
This is totally wrong. Sure it's nice to have something or a backdoor draw when you float, and if you are trying to play GTO it's optimal, but I'm playing an exploitative game against mediocre opposition; gameflow and timing are far more important. The regs I'm playing do not generally float as standard, so I assume they assume I don't float either. In fact I know they don't because they don't tend to call me down/double barrel in spots where it's clear I could easily be floating. This explains why I think there is a value to be had in not allowing the regs to see that I'm floating them.

Example: Reg is annoyed with me for winning a few pots off me. He cbets a 662 board. I'm not calling here as a float no matter what back door equity I have. He is going to make sure he wins the hand, either by bluffing me or double barrelling

Another reg raises in EP and bets on a board of 456 two hearts. I'm going to call here based on his respect for me, not for any back door equity I might have.

Of course these are extreme examples, and equity can often be the deciding factor. (I'm only talking about floating here, obviously when you are considering calling normally equity is your biggest concern!)


Quote:
Originally Posted by colquhom View Post
Genuine question, not trying to troll.
No offence taken

Quote:
Originally Posted by colquhom View Post
Obviously keep posting because i and others enjoy reading but something about the threads doesnt seem to match up with what you've been able to articulate on here in the past.
Do you think the quality of my analaysis has gone down? I don't, but then I'm not the best judge. I'm a better player than I ever was, but the skill differential between me and the average player has definitely declined.
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Old 09-03-12, 05:48   #12
Hectorjelly
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Also, I've been trying to fold in spots where I would stack off because its considered standard, but due to instinct/logic thought I was liable to be making a bad call. By their vary nature these hands are going to look kind of crazy, (for example where I fold aces to a min raise on a very dry board). I'm posting them to get feedback and see what other people think. In the past I would have just stacked off and chalked it up to a cooler.
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Old 09-03-12, 08:51   #13
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Originally Posted by colquhom View Post
Obviously keep posting because i and others enjoy reading but something about the threads doesnt seem to match up with what you've been able to articulate on here in the past.
Would you not think that the game changes over time and that staying on top of it means constantly learning, relearning and re assessing?
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Old 09-03-12, 09:11   #14
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Do you not think you're overvaluing the amount of times you're ahead here? He's TAG and a Reg, and he's raised utg - ok you're beating his A,x hands that have missed, but you're not beating his pairs which have slowed down because of the KK on the flop AND because his stats on you will indicate you're a Tag and Reg too.

That aside, I don't think your hypothetical example is a true 'float' - all you've done is call his cb - if you were really trying to implement the float, you should have bet the turn [imo].

Onto the question though - there isn't a 'right' answer or a 'best' answer, its more a question of the kind of game you want to develop - if you let him and the table see your hand, you're going to open youself up to a higher variance game at some stage. At the least the 1/2 regs/good players at the table will take note and play different against you in the future - because you play 8 [or so?] tables at this level, I'm not sure that this is a good thing for you. Players will react different to the info that you call lighter than they thought, some will play lighter against you, some will call your river bets more, some will call less, some won't check to you as often etc... - some of this is good, some not, but all of it is higher variance.

In the context of multi tabling and playing pretty standard TAG, then its not a good thing.

Problem I see is that betting here doesn't guarantee he won't see your hand. I think you missed a bet on the turn.
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Old 09-03-12, 10:36   #15
colquhom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
What particular concept do you think I would have known about in the past but aren't sure about now? I decided I needed to be more focused on poker recently, so I've been playing more; took on a few students and started watching some poker videos. I got almost nothing from any video I watched so I decided to start posting hands. I tried for a while on 2+2, here is actually a quote on my experience from a mail I sent to someone earlier:

"The midstakes NLH forum on 2+2 is pretty good, but the advice is geared to mid stakes games where the players are all generally good (so not that applicable to low stakes poker) The high stakes one has so little poker in it as to be redundant, the low stakes one has mainly bad or mediocre advice."

So I decided to start posting here, especially after Zuutroy mentioned that no-one posts cash game hands any more.

Each day I've been trying to post the most interesting hand or difficult hands I've played Often I feel I know the best answer, but it's still a good spot for discussion, sometimes I want other peoples opinions before I decide myself. (I also try and give a mix of hands where I make the wrong and right decisions at the time) I've been 10 tabling for about 5/6 hours a day, and struggle to come up with difficult hands sometimes; so I don't think this it's anything to do with confidence.

I get a lot from these discussions. From explaining to a rude idiot why he's completely wrong http://www.irishpokerboards.com/foru...8&postcount=16

to disagreeing with someone whose opinion I have a huge amount of respect for http://www.irishpokerboards.com/foru...2&postcount=29

The process of articulating your thought process does wonder's for your poker game, it forces you to play in a logical manner. I've also picked up a few good points from some posters that I hadn't considered before.


I'm playing pretty well at the moment, but I'm looking to play better and move up asap. I'm really trying to improve my game against good players, as I already play pretty much perfectly against fish (IMO!). I have developed a tendency to just avoid regs which I didn't used to. I don't mind that as a strategy but it's been something I've been thinking about trying to improve.

I didn't play poker for about 10 months last year whilst I was working for Full Tilt (lol), and when I started back it took me a long time to be able to play with confidence, even at the lowest limits. Before I had played full time for 5 years, so I doubt I'm back to the level I was then; in terms of application. Theory wise I've never been stronger.

Fair enough, just wondering

This thread in particular I think is a good example. Yeah, it's not a very important question; but its one that I've been thinking about because I'm happy with my knowledge on the more important matters. EG:



This is totally wrong.

Ha, its definitely not "totally" wrong. You seem to think i'm obsessed with playing GTO, im not actually. However, extra equity in terms of backdoors means the outright float has to work less because sometimes you'll make a hand. Its obviously better to float with some hands more than others. Just like its not good to open 35o utg with the sole intention to bluff, there are better hands to widen your range with. You prob wouldnt argue that not opening 35o under the gun is trying to play GTO, its just common sense. And i don't underestimate how important gameflow is but its obviously a combination of factors that make a strategy good and not just gameflow.

Also, you said that the skill differential has closed between you and others, has the skill differential not closed enough such that they might have considered starting to "float" people?




Do you think the quality of my analaysis has gone down? I don't, but then I'm not the best judge. I'm a better player than I ever was, but the skill differential between me and the average player has definitely declined.
I don't think the quality of it has gone down, the situations just seemed to appear simple enough that i'm surprised you'd bother asking the question. But you gave a pretty good explanation for the type of hands posted so i understand now.
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