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Old 13-09-18, 13:23   #41221
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Originally Posted by Gimmeabreak View Post
really, care to elaborate for me?
Think you missed the joke there.
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Old 13-09-18, 13:24   #41222
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Originally Posted by Zod View Post
The issue here is the cost of renting and the cost of raising children, something which gets neglected when it is easier to blame the person on social welfare.
If we are continually trying to turn this into an emotive debate by saying that anyone who points out the reality of how social welfare benefits work is trying to blame people.
Of course an outlier where an individual has an exceptionally large family and appears to want better conditions than people who have to pay for them themselves can afford is going to attract comment, that doesn't mean that comment on the reality of the system is blaming people.
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Old 13-09-18, 13:24   #41223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmeabreak View Post
really, care to elaborate for me?
I think it was a riff on something I had posted previously.
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Old 13-09-18, 13:25   #41224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zod View Post
one thing on this:

While I don't believe in abdicating personal responsibility, we as a society should aim to solve the problems people are actually in and that being Captain Hindsight is only worth anything when the problem has been solved. There's also an assumption that because they are in a terrible situation it must be because of poor personal choices made because they are poor (an assumption he repeats later on that complaints of a lack of proper cooking facilities can be disregarded because sure they'll only cook junk anyway, what with them being poor).
It's written from the prospective of someone who worked in this area for their whole life. It's not captain Hindsight, his view is that society is perpetuating and enlarging this problem. He's not writing out the two women specifically.

Quote:
(an assumption he repeats later on that complaints of a lack of proper cooking facilities can be disregarded because sure they'll only cook junk anyway, what with them being poor)
It's not a throwaway remark in the BBV, it's based on years of observation. And the difference between British and immigrants in the same situation.


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Apart from the antisocial disregard of the common good that each little such act of littering implies (hundreds a week in the space of 800 yards alone), the vast quantity of food consumed in the street has deeper implications. I tell the doctors that in all my visits to the white households in the area, of which I've made hundreds, never—not once—have I seen any evidence of cooking. The nearest to this activity that I have witnessed is the reheating of prepared and packaged food, usually in a microwave. And by the same token, I have never seen any evidence of meals taken in common as a social activity—unless two people eating hamburgers together in the street as they walk along be counted as social.


This is not to say that I haven't seen people eating at home; on the contrary, they are often eating when I arrive. They eat alone, even if other members of the household are present, and never at table; they slump on a sofa in front of the television. Everyone in the household eats according to his own whim and timetable. Even in so elementary a matter as eating, therefore, there is no self-discipline but rather an imperative obedience to impulse. Needless to say, the opportunity for conversation or sociality that a meal taken together provides is lost. English meals are thus solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.


I ask the doctors to compare the shops in areas inhabited by poor whites and those where poor Indian immigrants live. It is an instructive comparison. The shops the Indians frequent are piled high with all kinds of attractive fresh produce that, by supermarket standards, is astonishingly cheap. The women take immense trouble over their purchases and make subtle discriminations. There are no pre-cooked meals for them. By contrast, a shop that poor whites patronize offers a restricted choice, largely of relatively expensive prepared foods that at most require only the addition of hot water.


The difference between the two groups cannot be explained by differences in income, for they are insignificant. Poverty isn't the issue. And the willingness of Indians to take trouble over what they eat and to treat meals as important social occasions that impose obligations and at times require the subordination of personal desire is indicative of an entire attitude to life that often permits them, despite their current low incomes, to advance up the social scale. Alarmingly, though, the natural urge of the children of immigrants to belong to the predominant local culture is beginning to create an Indian underclass (at least among young males): and the taste for fast food and all that such a taste implies is swiftly developing among them.


When such slovenliness about food extends to all other spheres of life, when people satisfy every appetite with the same minimal effort and commitment, no wonder they trap themselves in squalor. I have little trouble showing my doctors from India and the Philippines that most of our patients take a fast-food approach to all their pleasures, obtaining them no less fleetingly and unstrenuously. They have no cultural activity they can call their own, and their lives seem, even to them, empty of purpose. In the welfare state, mere survival is not the achievement that it is, say, in the cities of Africa, and therefore it cannot confer the self-respect that is the precondition of self-improvement.


By the end of three months my doctors have, without exception, reversed their original opinion that the welfare state, as exemplified by England, represents the acme of civilization. On the contrary, they see it now as creating a miasma of subsidized apathy that blights the lives of its supposed beneficiaries. They come to realize that a system of welfare that makes no moral judgments in allocating economic rewards promotes antisocial egotism. The spiritual impoverishment of the population seems to them worse than anything they have ever known in their own countries. And what they see is all the worse, of course, because it should be so much better. The wealth that enables everyone effortlessly to have enough food should be liberating, not imprisoning. Instead, it has created a large caste of people for whom life is, in effect, a limbo in which they have nothing to hope for and nothing to fear, nothing to gain and nothing to lose. It is a life emptied of meaning.


"On the whole," said one Filipino doctor to me, "life is preferable in the slums of Manila." He said it without any illusions as to the quality of life in Manila.
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Old 13-09-18, 13:28   #41225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmeabreak View Post
really, care to elaborate for me?
I was filling in for Zod. That was his answer last time you debated with him.
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Old 13-09-18, 13:30   #41226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strewelpeter View Post
If we are continually trying to turn this into an emotive debate by saying that anyone who points out the reality of how social welfare benefits work is trying to blame people.
Of course an outlier where an individual has an exceptionally large family and appears to want better conditions than people who have to pay for them themselves can afford is going to attract comment, that doesn't mean that comment on the reality of the system is blaming people.
I'm not saying that anyone commenting on the realities is automatically blaming people. I'm saying that it's easier (and done more often) to direct the narrative to attacking social welfare recipients rather than attacking why it costs so much to rent or childcare or education.
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Old 13-09-18, 13:31   #41227
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Originally Posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
You're right. It's not income.

It is cost though. That we taxpayers are forking out for.
Best add in all the multiple kids ECE free Montessori places too
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Old 13-09-18, 13:32   #41228
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Originally Posted by eoghan104 View Post
I was filling in for Zod. That was his answer last time you debated with him.
actually it was "go fuck yourself" and was only partially serious.
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Old 13-09-18, 13:34   #41229
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Anyone care to lighten it up and also get nostalgic with a poker hand?!
Playing last night in Fitz and this hand caused a lot of debate.

UTG raises to 10 off 400 stack, MP raises to 40 off 140 stack. Me, in the SB playing 450 look down at JJ. The MP player is generally ABC but a bit steamed, the UTG is unknown.

I decided to raise too 100 planning to fold to a shove. Both players call.
Flop J98 and I bet the 300 UTG has left.

Thoughts?
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Old 13-09-18, 13:35   #41230
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Originally Posted by eoghan104 View Post
Anyone care to lighten it up and also get nostalgic with a poker hand?!
Playing last night in Fitz and this hand caused a lot of debate.

UTG raises to 10 off 400 stack, MP raises to 40 off 140 stack. Me, in the SB playing 450 look down at JJ. The MP player is generally ABC but a bit steamed, the UTG is unknown.

I decided to raise too 100 planning to fold to a shove. Both players call.
Flop J98 and I bet the 300 UTG has left.

Thoughts?
Snap shove gg ul?
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Old 13-09-18, 13:58   #41231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eoghan104 View Post
Anyone care to lighten it up and also get nostalgic with a poker hand?!
Playing last night in Fitz and this hand caused a lot of debate.

UTG raises to 10 off 400 stack, MP raises to 40 off 140 stack. Me, in the SB playing 450 look down at JJ. The MP player is generally ABC but a bit steamed, the UTG is unknown.

I decided to raise too 100 planning to fold to a shove. Both players call.
Flop J98 and I bet the 300 UTG has left.

Thoughts?
flop is prob a range check, but its live cash so yeah just stick it in pre seems fine although puke when the 140 stack puts it in but what can we do other than sigh and call.
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Old 13-09-18, 14:05   #41232
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The UTG called and had aces the MP had QQ and all the money went in.

The discussion after was all about how the UTG played it bad by not shoving over my 100 pre-flop. I disagreed and thought it was a good flat. I fold JJ to the shove and him only calling would lead me to believe I was ahead.

One guy said he would rather take down the 100 pre incase someone hit a set against his aces! Poker is dead.
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Old 13-09-18, 14:07   #41233
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This was a very strange—and dishonest—way of putting it, since it was obviously not the homeless who were paying to live there, but the taxpayers who were paying for them to do so.
I guess the HAP isn't income after all?
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Old 13-09-18, 14:11   #41234
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People work hard to provide the best for their children. In her situation I reckon what she has done is her best equivalent of that given her current circumstances. It's a world and worldview most of us can't imagine.

Get an education, work hard, and prosper in life is a viewpoint most of us were given an opportunity to accept or not. Many of us were also blessed to have the circumstances, both internal and external, to make something of ourselves and earn the financial rewards of it.

I just don't think the average traveller woman grew up with any of that.

I don't think that a sense of entitlement is correlated with socioeconomic status. People like her have a sense of entitlement that brings up a natural sense of righteous indignation and anger at her for being "a cheat".

But I also view a similar sense of entitlement in those complaining that they pay tax on their significant incomes which goes to her and the like. As if they rose from the muck against all odds to be earning what they earn. You've been blessed, born with abilities, had them nurtured, brought up with an ethic of personal responsibility and possibility in life, and structures to facilitate it. You probably don't work harder than a general operative or cleaner.

I think people grossly underestimate the effect of conditions and overestimate the effect of their own "character", as if it somehow emerged from nowhere. Don't believe you would be who you are or where you are if you born in that woman's circumstances.

She's a self entitled cow, and we're self entitled pigs. The solution isn't reducing welfare entitlements, it's creating more and better opportunities for all of society. Surely history is clear on this point.
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Old 13-09-18, 14:13   #41235
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Jesus great post. Just breezes in and kills both sides arguments. Some cunt tbf.
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Old 13-09-18, 14:14   #41236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotspur View Post
People work hard to provide the best for their children. In her situation I reckon what she has done is her best equivalent of that given her current circumstances. It's a world and worldview most of us can't imagine.

Get an education, work hard, and prosper in life is a viewpoint most of us were given an opportunity to accept or not. Many of us were also blessed to have the circumstances, both internal and external, to make something of ourselves and earn the financial rewards of it.

I just don't think the average traveller woman grew up with any of that.

I don't think that a sense of entitlement is correlated with socioeconomic status. People like her have a sense of entitlement that brings up a natural sense of righteous indignation and anger at her for being "a cheat".

But I also view a similar sense of entitlement in those complaining that they pay tax on their significant incomes which goes to her and the like. As if they rose from the muck against all odds to be earning what they earn. You've been blessed, born with abilities, had them nurtured, brought up with an ethic of personal responsibility and possibility in life, and structures to facilitate it. You probably don't work harder than a general operative or cleaner.

I think people grossly underestimate the effect of conditions and overestimate the effect of their own "character", as if it somehow emerged from nowhere. Don't believe you would be who you are or where you are if you born in that woman's circumstances.

She's a self entitled cow, and we're self entitled pigs. The solution isn't reducing welfare entitlements, it's creating more and better opportunities for all of society. Surely history is clear on this point.
Great post.

I often think to myself if I had been dropped into a halting site at birth and a baby from the halting site had been dropped in my house. The idea that I'd be in a better state than the kid who I was swapped with 30 years later is totally laughable. You would have to be an out and out fool to credit it.
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Old 13-09-18, 14:14   #41237
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Originally Posted by Keane View Post
I guess the HAP isn't income after all?
Shhh, you'll be accused of agreeing with me.
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Old 13-09-18, 14:15   #41238
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Originally Posted by Zod View Post
Shhh, you'll be accused of agreeing with me.
I thought it was fairly obvious that to varying extents many/most people do.

I agree that you flounced in throwing fucks around like a gowl in fairness
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Old 13-09-18, 14:16   #41239
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Denny's guy again.

what struck me most was that the interviewer did not think to ask (or, if he did, it was rigorously edited out) how the situation in which they found themselves had arisen in the first place.

Absolutely fucking nailing the bullshit. Hero.
I would have thought the way people end up homeless was fairly well established. First google response for America:
For women in particular, domestic violence is a leading cause of homelessness. the country report that top causes of homelessness among families were: (1) lack of affordable housing, (2) unemployment, (3) poverty, and (4) low wages, in that order.

How does that change anything for the story in general? All seems a bit victim blaming to me.
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Old 13-09-18, 14:28   #41240
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Originally Posted by eoghan104 View Post
Anyone care to lighten it up and also get nostalgic with a poker hand?!
Playing last night in Fitz and this hand caused a lot of debate.

UTG raises to 10 off 400 stack, MP raises to 40 off 140 stack. Me, in the SB playing 450 look down at JJ. The MP player is generally ABC but a bit steamed, the UTG is unknown.

I decided to raise too 100 planning to fold to a shove. Both players call.
Flop J98 and I bet the 300 UTG has left.

Thoughts?
Fold pre > Call > Raise.

As played, bet 110
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