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    Villain in this hand is interesting. We have a lot of history. He is one of the better players in these games; I've never seen him do anything stupid. At first we kind of battled for a while, stacking each other a few times in relatively standard hands; but we haven't played a major pot together in over a week, despite playing at the same tables almost constantly. Clearly we've learnt to respect each other and not waste time when their are always better spots around. That said, he did recently call a raise OOP to me with TQo, but on this site all the regs love to call in spots like that, so although in a vacuum it's bad, don't let it colour your idea of him too much.

    We're at a particularly crazy table, but both of the crazy players play no part in this hand. The effective stack is 200bbs. Other players at the table are deeper. Again I wouldn't read anything into the size of the preflop raise as the table is deep and crazy.

    Villain makes it 2 utg
    I'm next to speak with KK. I just call. I obviously could 3 bet here, but if I 3bet I will just shut out all of the bad players. Also, even if this was a normal table with 100bbs I would be very reluctant to 3bet here, I haven't 3bet this guy in a long, long time; and do it all of a sudden in a spot with a very tight dynamic really restricts my hand range to AA or KK. 3betting TJs or something for balance here would be moronic given the table. If was to somehow 3bet here and he 4bet I would instantly fold. 100bbs deep I'd be tempted to fold, 200bbs I wouldn't think twice about it. If I call here someone else at the table may 3bet as well, which would be great. Anyway....

    One fish calls, everyone else folds, including the two mentallers

    The flop is k82, with two hearts. I have top set.

    Villain bets exactly the pot, 7.50. I'm next to speak. Do I call or raise, and if so how much? What's the rest of the plan for the hand?

    Myself and villain are 200bbs deep. Fish has 30bbs.

    #2
    I'd just call. Calling gives the fish a chance to shove and gives the PFR a chance to put more money in on the flop. If you raise there I think it looks super strong. The board is very dry and there aren't a huge number of hands he can continue with to a flop raise. Especially given your recently tight dynamic i think it would be pretty bad raising the flop.
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      #3
      Make it $19, gives you a good chance to get stacks in and also gives him a chance to repop it if he thinks you are at it on this board.

      Comment


        #4
        Does raising now not just shut him down as much as preflop? Unless he specifically has AA/AK/KQ?..hard for him to have K in his hand i know.. My default would be to call giving the 30bb fish a chance to spaz & this gets villains stack in easier with AK also.

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          #5
          He has potted the flop so I assume hes got a strong hand or a draw, I don't think hes folding either to a small raise just yet. His betsizing pre and post flop certainly look like a strong hand. If fish was shoving hes probably shoving no matter what we do. The fact that we are 200bb deep it would be a reasonable spot for us to bluff raise on this flop lightish also so it works both ways.

          If we call here with position on him hes probably going to slow down on the turn with most of his hands as hes inflated the pot quite a bit already at this stage with his bet sizing in the hand. Also if he has a made hand and the turn is a heart hes going to slow down also.

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            #6
            Does he usually cbet full pot on dry boards?

            Raising here looks super strong as u will be committed if the SS shoves over your raise, I would flat and raise most turns. If the shortie shoves after your flat I would rwpop it when it gets back to me as you could be iso'ing a large range.

            I know you say there are better spots to pick on but surely it wouldn't do any harm to be a bit more balanced vs this guy so that u can raise pre in position without appearing nutted.

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              #7
              board isnt overly dry - there is a FD there which is easily in the villains range considering the table is deep. I definitely raise it here - to about $18 - like digi has said the fish might decide to jam in the loots anyway and villain raised UTG and bet full pot into 2 players - he definitely likes his hand a lot here so he isnt going away easily imo

              on most turns Id bet $30 and on most rivers Id be jamming for max value

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                #8
                can't see the sense in raising this flop. he can be betting all pairs (and bluffs) practically and if we raise he prob just mucks 33-77. if he has AA or AK or mediums we are still well ahead and can bloat the pot on later streets but for godsake let's give every chance for the fish to come along aswell.
                Last edited by bustamoves; 03-03-12, 17:02.

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                  #9
                  I think raising here makes it very hard for the fish to come along, and probably my primary concern at this point is getting him to put all his chips in the middle.

                  Therefore I just call here. As some one said above, if he does raise, our re-raise when it comes around is well-disguised as an attempt to isolate the fish.

                  If 3 players get to the turn, I'm looking to raise/get it in most of the time obv.


                  Also -- is the pot sized bet on the flop normal for this opponent?

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                    #10
                    fish has 30bb, villain has 200bb : why are people so obssesed by keeping him in? the villain's bet looks super strong to me so I'm def raising, if hes has pair +draw (which seems likely gievn the pot size bet) we can potentially build a very big pot and get stacks in on a non the turn.

                    if we call sure the fish might jam/call, if he's a true fish and has K or f-draw he's puttin git in neway imo

                    if we call and ish calls/folds a heart peels on the turn we are either going to a) be behind or b) lose tons of value as the villain will tread very carefully with 88/AK.....

                    I'd make it 18 ish (presuming this leaves a fish shove enough to re-open action?) and obv later streets depend on the subsequnet flop action/turn card

                    if fish folds + villain flats..the on a non turn he likely checks and we just go to value town mode and bet circa 30..., if a peels we can use postion to weigh up our options and pot control by checking back or bet smaller , like 20 to keep sets/K's calling ...

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                      #11
                      Good responses so far, I'm not going to reply properly as I'm way too drunk. I agree that I'm far more concerned with the UTG tight player than the fish, the fish will pretty much just decide to do based on how pretty his hand looks, and 200bbs is a much better target than 30. Of course, using the fish as a swinging rope is an attractive option.

                      By the way I posted this hand because I felt I made the wrong decision, but afterwards wanted to get some extra thoughts on the hand.

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                        #12
                        I think raising with the fish behind us playing 30BBs where he will commit with any middling pair, a draw or a king looks incredibly strong. I think KQ should be folding very quickly on that board. While he has bet the pot, that doesn't mean he has a monster. This is not a wet board. There is only one draw so as far as two tone boards go, this is incredibly dry.

                        When we raise our hand looks incredibly strong. It means we're prepared to play against the fish for stacks. Our raising range (perceived) in this scenario is going to be a flush draw, top pair or a set. Raising a bluff or something dumb like 99 is obviously something we would never do on this board with the fish behind.

                        While we are of course more concerned about the guy with 200BBs, the fish has a very important role in the hand and changes the entire dynamic of our raising range. If I had AA versus a small raise in that spot I would seriously consider folding. Flatting the flop does leave a lot to go in, but it also gives the fish a chance to shove whatever he has thus inflating the pot and giving UTG the chance to throw more money in, giving us an option to reshove or to easily get the full 200bbs in on later streets.
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                          #13
                          I raise to $18 or so.
                          The fish is a bonus in the hand but I want to build the pot so we can shove on the river

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Why are we so concerned about trying to get 200bbs in -v- getting max value? << geniune question, not a statement.

                            We only get 200bbs in v Ak & AA, so unless you can narrow him to this some how i dont get raising tbh. Fwiw i dont play cash but fish shoving + villain puttin in more chips on flop seems right to me.

                            Hj said he & villain havent been going offer each other in a week so why would villain think hes bluffing if he raises the flop?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Calling keeps both our ranges relatively wide, raising a psb looks pretty strong and considerably narrows the range of hands villain can continue with, also squeezing out the fish.
                              "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Laois Hammer View Post
                                Why are we so concerned about trying to get 200bbs in -v- getting max value? << geniune question, not a statement.

                                We only get 200bbs in v Ak & AA, so unless you can narrow him to this some how i dont get raising tbh. Fwiw i dont play cash but fish shoving + villain puttin in more chips on flop seems right to me.

                                Hj said he & villain havent been going offer each other in a week so why would villain think hes bluffing if he raises the flop?
                                We never get 200bbs in against AK or AA if I raise. We do stack both lower sets or an unlikely k8s. Possibly get it in vs pair and a draw but these are pretty unlikely, same with nut flush draw. Very much doubt he is going to 3bet these hands if I raise.

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                                  #17
                                  I remember seeing a hand like this on a dr. giggy video where giggy cbet his air on a very dry flop and a player he rated highly raised him ip, with a fish yet to act. Fish folded and giggy 3bet his air as he reasoned villain(in hectorjs position) wouldn't raise a strong value hand with the fish still to act. Villain folded pretty quickly.

                                  Dunno how relevant that thinking would be here. Fish had full stack in that hand i think. Would be a nice spot to get 3bet though!

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    I think it's very easy to overthink this spot. We have kings, then we have top set. Happy days! The only really bad move is folding.
                                    "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by mcnugget View Post
                                      Does he usually cbet full pot on dry boards?

                                      Raising here looks super strong as u will be committed if the SS shoves over your raise, I would flat and raise most turns. If the shortie shoves after your flat I would rwpop it when it gets back to me as you could be iso'ing a large range.

                                      I know you say there are better spots to pick on but surely it wouldn't do any harm to be a bit more balanced vs this guy so that u can raise pre in position without appearing nutted.
                                      No he doesn't usually cbet full pot; but I don't know what to read into that really. I don't think he is cbetting air into 2 players including a fish.

                                      I agree with not raising originally, but I'm still not convinced raising if the button shoves and utg calls/raises is the right thing to do. Of course if the pot is massive then I'll go all in, but I think if the stacks allow for it the most profitable way to play the hand may to be just call the raise, representing a flush draw. UTG, being out of position is liable to stack himself on the turn.

                                      As for your last point, yes you are definitely right. I do raise flops as bluffs both for EV and to balance my range, but I hadn't done so against this particular reg. A lot of the difficult spots I find myself in are because I haven't widened my range sufficiently enough prior to the hand and my hand range is consequently too narrow.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        I would have thought calling was pretty standard here for reasons Ian and Winning said. It also allows us to take different lines later in the hand which the villian can react poorly to.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          I don't really know what would be considered standard here, it's a pretty rare spot. At the time I was hoping he had a lower set, but I should really have considered his entire range more. Anyway I raised and they both folded. Later in the game I put in nearly 100bbs in pre against a fish with aces and lost to a5s, I put a further 150 in on a flop of 55x, so I suppose i'm the fish really.

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                                            #22
                                            ''As for your last point, yes you are definitely right. I do raise flops as bluffs both for EV and to balance my range, but I hadn't done so against this particular reg. A lot of the difficult spots I find myself in are because I haven't widened my range sufficiently enough prior to the hand and my hand range is consequently too narrow''

                                            hard to be somewhat balanced vs this guy when you avoid playing hands with him (this is not a dig, just stating the obv i suppose)

                                            i think bluffs make up a large part of his range and he's very likely to bet all his bluffs on this board.

                                            i think ppl are way out here in saying his range is strong just because he pots it...
                                            there is a fish in the pot so he's probably always betting pot into the fish for value so him betting pot here with u in the pot with his bluffs would be pretty standard (given your perceived range is not necessarily that strong) knowing he mostly needs to just get thru you.

                                            he prob opens a wider range from utg than normal given the fish is in the pot, i.e. opens all pairs from utg and all AT+ (minimum) so his range is pretty wide and he'll be turning all his small pairs into bluffs as well as AT, AJ and AQ i'd assume.

                                            i think we have to flat here and give him the opportunity to barrel with his bluffs. if he has a big hand he's likely to continue betting anyway so i am not overly concerned about getting the pot bigger.

                                            edit: i hadnt seen the result u just posted. i was typing it up at the time fwiw
                                            Last edited by bustamoves; 06-03-12, 01:50.

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                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                              ''As for your last point, yes you are definitely right. I do raise flops as bluffs both for EV and to balance my range, but I hadn't done so against this particular reg. A lot of the difficult spots I find myself in are because I haven't widened my range sufficiently enough prior to the hand and my hand range is consequently too narrow''

                                              hard to be somewhat balanced vs this guy when you avoid playing hands with him (this is not a dig, just stating the obv i suppose)
                                              Yes and no. I haven't been consciously avoiding pots with him. It was only during the course of this hand that I thought hard about our history. I will almost never call a raise out of position against a good player HU, and when I call raises in position the blinds tend to come along to reducing the scope for bluff raising. Also, because I play so few hands against him I can still balance my play, I can actually bluff way more because my hand range is perceived (and actually is) stronger than it would be ordinarily.

                                              When a player that I consider good stays out of my way I tend to avoid him too, playing relatively honestly. In games where there are always 2 or more fish getting into an aggressive dynamic with a player of a similar calibre is hurting both of your expectations. In a way we are implicitly colluding against the bad players. For example in this hand, it was literally a miracle that I happened to have a great hand against this particular opponent who appeared to also have a good hand, the fish were probably playing close to 70 - 80 VPIP, and what they considered a good hand would be of a far less quality than the good player would. Basically what I'm saying is in a perfect world yes, I would be concerned, but in actuality there are more profitable ways for me to expend my energies.

                                              Originally posted by bustamoves View Post

                                              i think bluffs make up a large part of his range and he's very likely to bet all his bluffs on this board.
                                              I think he has zero bluffs in his range. Zero. He wouldn't open utg without a strong hand. He wouldn't bet into both me and a fish with nothing. The fish is a fish, and myself and utg have 200bbs, meaning I can call with pretty much any draw. He knows I can represent whatever comes as well - there is no way he is putting money into this pot without some sort of hand. He may well have a hand like QQ- 88 where he wants to find out where he is, and is prepared to fold it, or he could be semi bluffing, but I doubt there are any bluffs in his range.

                                              Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                              i think ppl are way out here in saying his range is strong just because he pots it...
                                              there is a fish in the pot so he's probably always betting pot into the fish for value so him betting pot here with u in the pot with his bluffs would be pretty standard (given your perceived range is not necessarily that strong) knowing he mostly needs to just get thru you.
                                              I don't know why he potted it. Given that we are 200bbs deep its possible its because he has a great hand and wants to maximise the size of the pot. It could also be because he wants to discourage me to peel given the nature of the board and our deepness. I don't like taking random guesses, so since I have no idea why he potted it I just ignore it and treat it like a normal bet, it's not like it changes the hand significantly. I've never played 200bbs deep with this guy before, maybe its standard for him.

                                              Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                              he prob opens a wider range from utg than normal given the fish is in the pot, i.e. opens all pairs from utg and all AT+ (minimum) so his range is pretty wide and he'll be turning all his small pairs into bluffs as well as AT, AJ and AQ i'd assume.
                                              He should be opening a wider range than normal from utg. All pairs and AT is actually a pretty tight opening range. In his spot my range would be all pairs, all suited connectors, any broadway hands, Axs Ksx, most aces. 89o, 9To,Jto The two worst players are 200bbs deep and in the blinds.

                                              To be honest I don't know what his opening range is in this situation, but I would guess he in no way compensates as much as he should.

                                              Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                              i think we have to flat here and give him the opportunity to barrel with his bluffs. if he has a big hand he's likely to continue betting anyway so i am not overly concerned about getting the pot bigger.
                                              The problem with flatting is that the pot does not get very big if the fish folds. It's probably the line I like most now though anyway. You need the pot big on the flop because here bet bet bet does not end up very big at all.

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                                                #24
                                                zero bluffs in his range?? wow (then's he's the unbalanced one!)

                                                that's quite an assumption.

                                                for me, i think he's more likely to pot control with hands like qq and jj here than value bet and more likely to rep Kx with all his whiffs.

                                                what are his pfr stats from utg?
                                                Last edited by bustamoves; 06-03-12, 05:51.

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                                                  #25
                                                  I don't use a HUD, so have no stats.

                                                  Maybe he bets a whiffed AQo, but personally I wouldn't be bothered in this spot. I certainly wouldn't pot it!

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                    I don't use a HUD, so have no stats.

                                                    Maybe he bets a whiffed AQo, but personally I wouldn't be bothered in this spot. I certainly wouldn't pot it!
                                                    10 tabling with no HUD?! Madness*. I don't understand people not using HUDs. I mean its an extra level of information which you are free to use. It will be more accurate than your memory. Sure if I play someone long enough I will develop my own separate reads on his tendencies, and my notes on any strange lines he took will help, but I am unlikely to remember everything about his game, like how often he raises turn cbets or whatever. so often I've had a close decision and been able to double check my opponents' stats for help. Obviously it is still up to me to interpret the stats correctly.



                                                    *Unless you are playing on a site that does not allow HUDs.

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