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    25c 50c - how much to bet

    Folded to mp who makes it 1.50. Button calls. I make it 6. Mp calls and button folds. So two to the flop, which is K22r. There's 14 in there, and effective stack is about 40.

    I don't know MP at all, I saw him limp a few times but no hand went to showdown. I'm a regular in these games but he isn't.

    Haha, just realised I almost forgot to put my hand in. I have AA
    As a secondary, hypothetical question, how much should I bet if the opponent is a regular.

    #2
    ~10. Leaves a comfortable turn shove. We could go 1/3 pot, 1/3 pot and shove river aswell but I think I prefer going for 2 streets here.

    Comment


      #3
      this guys seems a bit fishy and passive from your comments so i just go for the two streets and hope he calls us off with some small-medium PPs and any K of course.

      we could try the smaller bets of like 1/3pot, 1/3pot, shove.... which has merit in that because this guy is presumably on the fishier side he will have alot of Ax (combo's reduced ofc) and random junk that might fancy peeling one small flop bet and continue if he improves but on the downside that brings more scare cards for the times he has say 33-JJ so i'd just go for doing a shano_88 here. what's worse is that this particular flop is so scary he prob doesnt even peel a small bet on the flop with his junk so its just a case of bet big and big and hope he has some bit of a hand that he cant fold.


      so i'll say 9 (for the psychologically more appealing price) into 14 on the flop and that leaves us a nice round 31 into 32 turn PSB
      Last edited by bustamoves; 02-03-12, 04:57.

      Comment


        #4
        Both of you have gone for two streets (Flop then turn all in). Why is this? IMO, of all the reasonable options this is the worst - not that it's that bad, just I think its the least good option.

        Comment


          #5
          6 on flop 12 on turn and shove river easy game

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by gillespie101 View Post
            6 on flop 12 on turn and shove river easy game
            +1

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by gillespie101 View Post
              6 on flop 12 on turn and shove river easy game
              Like it.

              $6 bet on the flop just looks so inviting to shove over if he has a king as well.

              Comment


                #8
                Do you post these up to tell people they are wrong when they give you their opinions.

                It's a recurring theme with your HH threads. If you know, or at least think you know the best line then why do you bother.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I don't find anything wrong with HJ's threads. Obviously any one looking to learn & improve is entitled to question anyone's reason and provide an argument themselves for that they think is the best line.

                  Actually I would say his questioning and arguing is great for others learning and also allows us to assimilate information on how people think in situations.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    +1. People asking a question, getting a 3-word answer and then going 'ok' makes for a shit thread. Discussion and reasoned argument ftw.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I don't think the question should be about the flop, but more about what we do on the turn. It's a great flop for our hand, and should be a decent flop for at least one of our opponents. If they have the effective nuts (KQ/KJ) then we've to figure out how best to stack them. We should get at least 1 street of value from any PP and it's also a decent flop for someone to float with a QJ/J10 hand hoping to pick up some equity on the turn. I'd bet about 6.50 on the flop

                      If for some reason, you try to make a case for folding this flop, i'm going to find out where you live and come around and beat you up and down the house with a steel bar

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                        Both of you have gone for two streets (Flop then turn all in). Why is this? IMO, of all the reasonable options this is the worst - not that it's that bad, just I think its the least good option.
                        What would you do?


                        Thinking back I think I prefer to go for 3 streets. Its very hard for Villian to have a hand on this flop and by betting small on the flop we can induce float and bluff raises.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Hurricane Fly View Post
                          Do you post these up to tell people they are wrong when they give you their opinions.

                          It's a recurring theme with your HH threads. If you know, or at least think you know the best line then why do you bother.
                          I'm loving these threads fwiw.

                          My default line would be as already stated - get it on over 3 streets.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            my initial reaction was we have his range crushed and and so let's try rope him in by betting small on the flop. however i thought about it alot more and figured our best bet is to hope we stack him when he has all those smaller PPs as well as the Mediums and Kx hands and if we think he is gonna call at least one street with the small PPs then we should make it big.
                            If he does have a small PP and we bet small then sure we can get a call but the turn will likely bring a over card and he can shut down and so on. if he has nothing then we rarely get anything anyway as as i said before even his junk will find it hard to peel a small bet and his combos of Ax are great reduced since we have AA in our hand.

                            looking foward to HJ response to see why and where going for small bet is better.

                            i assume against a reg he is just going for 2 streets?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Hurricane Fly View Post
                              Do you post these up to tell people they are wrong when they give you their opinions.

                              It's a recurring theme with your HH threads. If you know, or at least think you know the best line then why do you bother.
                              Firstly, now correct me if I happen to be wrong; but have you ever contributed anything to the theory forum? If the theory forum regulars have a problem with my posts/threads then I would listen to their concerns. For people like you? Not so much.

                              Secondly, I've been making an attempt to post more threads here in the theory forums, since it can be a bit dead around here. This is both for my, and the forums benefit. I've been posting up what I consider interesting hands. Some of them, like this one, I'm happy with how I played it but thought it would spark a good discussion on bet sizing and a creative approach to NLH. You would have found that out had you just waited for a while.

                              Some of the hands I posted, like the AA hand where I got stacked by KJs and and the AKo where I folded to a min-raise hand I really wasn't sure if I had chosen the right option and wanted to have a discussion and see what other people thought. That doesn't mean I won't have a strong opinion on it, and I'm certainly going to point out when I think people are really wrong. But I got something from every discussion, as hopefully did everyone who took part.

                              Different people posts threads for differing reasons. A lot of the time it's beginners looking for simple advice (which is fine), other times its good players looking for advice on tricky spots or unusual situations. Would you like me to pretend I'm a beginner?

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                I don't think the question should be about the flop, but more about what we do on the turn. It's a great flop for our hand, and should be a decent flop for at least one of our opponents. If they have the effective nuts (KQ/KJ) then we've to figure out how best to stack them. We should get at least 1 street of value from any PP and it's also a decent flop for someone to float with a QJ/J10 hand hoping to pick up some equity on the turn. I'd bet about 6.50 on the flop

                                If for some reason, you try to make a case for folding this flop, i'm going to find out where you live and come around and beat you up and down the house with a steel bar
                                We only have one opponent, which changes the dynamic a lot IMO.

                                Good point about planning ahead, I always imply that when ever I ask about action on streets earlier than the river, but it's good to mention it explicitly.

                                And haha no, there is no sequence of events that would lead me to fold this flop hu for 100bbs!

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                  We only have one opponent, which changes the dynamic a lot IMO.

                                  Good point about planning ahead, I always imply that when ever I ask about action on streets earlier than the river, but it's good to mention it explicitly.

                                  And haha no, there is no sequence of events that would lead me to fold this flop hu for 100bbs!
                                  Ughh, i didn't notice that the button folded in the OP. Observation ftw!

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by RoadSweeper View Post
                                    I don't find anything wrong with HJ's threads. Obviously any one looking to learn & improve is entitled to question anyone's reason and provide an argument themselves for that they think is the best line.

                                    Actually I would say his questioning and arguing is great for others learning and also allows us to assimilate information on how people think in situations.
                                    +4. Plenty of people without the experience /knowledge or perhaps the confidence to post in these threads get loads from reading opinions on various lines. I do anyway. (Go HJ!)

                                    Originally posted by gillespie101 View Post
                                    6 on flop 12 on turn and shove river easy game
                                    This would be my thinking also. I think in general against a weak-type opponent when you want to get it in the middle, betting small on the turn -as opposed to a shove -will keep them in the hand, and when the river comes they often feel committed to the hand.

                                    Eg, 88 might fold to a turn jam when an over-card falls, but feel comfortable calling small turn bet, and then feel there's too much invested not to call it off on the river.

                                    Will only work when your opponent is not thinking ahead, but (happily) many are not?



                                    Q: As HJ asked, what's the benefit of going for it on the turn as opposed to the 3-street approach?

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Betting $10 on this board is a leak.

                                      He's gonna have no pair a ton and you should size vs these hands. No need to bet more than $5.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        I think the line I take here is to check the flop for a couple of different reasons.

                                        We want max value here and villains range is pretty narrow to PP, AJ+ and maybe KQ. the problem is that the flop is super dry so he has missed with a lot of his range - for one second forget about the kings he has in his range because we are going to be getting it in against them anyway. lets focus on the Ax hands that have missed and PP's and try and get max value out of them. I think all of these hands bet the flop if we check so we can call and either c/r the turn or value bet the river if he checks behind on the turn

                                        on the other hand I think if we c-bet he will just fold with all the hands that have missed but by checking we give him all the rope he needs to hang himself and before he realsies he mistake he will be pot committed and we stack a hand that would otherwise have just folded

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          One reason I love this hand is because it's so simple. It's heads up, we have the effective nuts, we don't have to worry about being outdrawn so there's no need to protect our hand, the pot is already so big we can get all in easily and since this is some random dude there are no metagame considerations - we can do what we want. Also our opponent either has a king or nothing. There isn't a range to consider really, it's binary.

                                          Anyway here are the options as I see them, from biggest bet to smallest.

                                          Go all in. This isn't as ridiculous as it seems. No king is folding to this, but there is a chance a king may fold to multiple bets. (Probably not though). Smaller pairs may think we are bluffing because our bet is so silly.

                                          Pot bet. Very similar to above.

                                          Two street line, 10 on flop, 30 on turn. This puts a lot of pressure on the other player to fold. 10 is a lot to call on this flop without a king, and it means he has to commit his entire stack if he wants to bluff raise the flop.

                                          Three street line. 6, 12, 22

                                          Similar to the above line, but better IMO. He might call the 6 as a float, or decide to bluff raise it. I think in general people are happier stacking off on installment plans than in big bets. I think there is little chance I'm stacking TT taking any of these lines so far, but this one has the highest chance of it.

                                          So they are all the standard lines players may take (bar the all in one anyway)


                                          One line that hasn't been mentioned yet, but would probably be my default if I wasn't paying too much attention, is a two street approach, but with a check on either the flop or turn. This has the huge advantage of giving your opponent rope to hang himself. I'd often bet the flop because not betting is somewhat suspicious, then check the turn to him to allow him to bet his floats. This has the disadvantage of allowing him to check back some hands he may call 3 barrels with and be somewhat in control of the size of the pot. Obviously the less aggro an opponent the worse this line is.

                                          The problem I have with checking the flop is that it's suspicious. Its the exact line bad player will take with Aces and Kings here, so I'm reluctant to let that thought enter his mind.

                                          Another option is an absolutely tiny bet. Think about what a bet of 2 will do to our opponents range. He's already put in 6 preflop, can he fold for 2 ? So basically his entire range gets transported to the turn. This has the advantage over a check because
                                          a) it's less suspicious
                                          b) it grows the pot
                                          c) if he bluff raises he has to put in more money than if we check

                                          Also look how a tiny bet looks like to a bad opponent. He will see it as weakness, we don't want to check and give up, but we don't want to just give up either so we bet tiny.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Bozzer View Post
                                            Betting $10 on this board is a leak.

                                            He's gonna have no pair a ton and you should size vs these hands. No need to bet more than $5.
                                            can someone please tell me what no pair hand is going call $5 on this flop. the only hands that might peel the odd time are say AQ and AJ and AT. Nothing else IMO and i dont expect a bluff raise much either.

                                            As for Bubblekings ck and let him bet his PPs and hang himself...this is a passive type who will try to get to SD most likely so i hate waiting for him to do the betting.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              We have to cbet flop oop because we are firing 100% with our bluffs on that board. In position I don't mind checking back sometimes against certain opponents. Flop is so dry so small,small, shove is the way to go.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                                can someone please tell me what no pair hand is going call $5 on this flop. the only hands that might peel the odd time are say AQ and AJ and AT. Nothing else IMO and i dont expect a bluff raise much either.

                                                As for Bubblekings ck and let him bet his PPs and hang himself...this is a passive type who will try to get to SD most likely so i hate waiting for him to do the betting.
                                                They'll peel more than the odd time. Dude's a fish.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                  Another option is an absolutely tiny bet. Think about what a bet of 2 will do to our opponents range. He's already put in 6 preflop, can he fold for 2 ? So basically his entire range gets transported to the turn. This has the advantage over a check because
                                                  a) it's less suspicious
                                                  b) it grows the pot
                                                  c) if he bluff raises he has to put in more money than if we check

                                                  Also look how a tiny bet looks like to a bad opponent. He will see it as weakness, we don't want to check and give up, but we don't want to just give up either so we bet tiny.
                                                  I think this is the best line of all -v- a random opponent because a lot of bad players make this move for bad reasons and it's not an unheard of move, thus making it look far less suspect. A lot of players at lower levels are betting here to catch out "Check/Fold" button users and multi-tablers who aren't paying proper attention and may have whiffed. Being OOP actually assists this play. If the guy is semi-competent he has to call with his mid-pairs and making an equivalent turn bet leaves the door wide open for him to jam trying to take you out or keep coming on the river at the very least. I should state initially that these observations are from a player at a lower level in stakes and skill to others who have contributed:
                                                  You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
                                                  World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by ikilldurrr1 View Post
                                                    We have to cbet flop oop because we are firing 100% with our bluffs on that board.o.
                                                    We don't have to do anything because of this, this is just some random dude I'm never going to see again

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                                      As for Bubblekings ck and let him bet his PPs and hang himself...this is a passive type who will try to get to SD most likely so i hate waiting for him to do the betting.
                                                      Originally posted by ikilldurrr1 View Post
                                                      We have to cbet flop oop because we are firing 100% with our bluffs on that board. In position I don't mind checking back sometimes against certain opponents. Flop is so dry so small,small, shove is the way to go.
                                                      against a reg I'd agree with you - 100% cbet all day but against a random villain he is just as likely to think you hate the King as much as you checking is suspicious. By hate the king I mean he will likely think you have JJ/QQ and try and get you to fold those hands.

                                                      Im not saying he is thinking that but its just as likely as he thinks you checking = monster

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                        Folded to mp who makes it 1.50. Button calls. I make it 6. Mp calls and button folds. So two to the flop, which is K22r. There's 14 in there, and effective stack is about 40.

                                                        I don't know MP at all, I saw him limp a few times but no hand went to showdown. I'm a regular in these games but he isn't.

                                                        Haha, just realised I almost forgot to put my hand in. I have AA
                                                        As a secondary, hypothetical question, how much should I bet if the opponent is a regular.
                                                        Interested in the bolded bit - of the hands that didnt go to showdown, was it because he bet and got a fold or because he was bet into and folded, or some combination?

                                                        Trying to figure, from the limited info you have on him, what his tendancies might be.

                                                        If he has a king, we should get some value from him (obv if he has a 2 he isn't going away).

                                                        He had a hand he liked enough to raise originally, and to 3x [a kind of old fashioned raise imo, indicates some one reading old poker theory, or who learned a good while ago and hasn't updated - but in either case, someone who isn't paying any or much attention to modern 2.5x or 2.75x or whatever], and to call your 3 bet even though there was still someone to act behind him after he called your 3 bet.

                                                        Problem with betting too small is we lose him or put him on guard, but equally problem if we bet too big.

                                                        I would go for something around 8 - so after flop there will be 30 in pot with 32 effective stack behind - [14 + your 8 + his 8]. On turn, bet 15, so will be 60 in pot with 17 left behind, making it easy for him to raise you on turn and you to call, or alternatively, easy for him to call on river.

                                                        I'm assuming your only goal is to get it all in here as fast as possible, but because you dont know either his bet or call tendancy, i'm moreinclined to take the 'middle' route like above, rather betting 'pot' on each street or '1/2 pot' on each street.

                                                        On your secondary question, if he is a regular, you have more info on him - what is is his call cb figure, or his bet when checked to stat? Can you recall/find previous hands where he called 3bet ?? i.e. think you should put more info into your hypothetical second question...
                                                        Last edited by Lplated; 02-03-12, 16:14.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          I think the flop shove is a cool idea and be interested so see the EV of it vs 3 streets.
                                                          I generally would go for tiny flop and 3 streets of instalments on this board vs a fishy player.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            True dat HJ. Being consistent and generally balanced though is a better overall strategy than getting too creative when there is no need. FPS can cost a lot in missed value. I think anything other than small,small,shove against a random is not the most profitable line here.

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Lplated View Post
                                                              Interested in the bolded bit - of the hands that didnt go to showdown, was it because he bet and got a fold or because he was bet into and folded, or some combination?

                                                              Trying to figure, from the limited info you have on him, what his tendancies might be.
                                                              I really have no idea. The only thing I noticed about him was that he had limped into a couple of pots, I'm playing 8 tables + so I really only watch hands it they go to showdown. I don't think limping in pre gives you any idea of how aggressive people will be after the flop.

                                                              Originally posted by Lplated View Post
                                                              He had a hand he liked enough to raise originally, and to 3x [a kind of old fashioned raise imo, indicates some one reading old poker theory, or who learned a good while ago and hasn't updated - but in either case, someone who isn't paying any or much attention to modern 2.5x or 2.75x or whatever], and to call your 3 bet even though there was still someone to act behind him after he called your 3 bet.
                                                              In cash games, on any site I've played on recently 3x is standard. In 100bb cash games there isn't really the same need to lower your preflop raises. I never raise less than 3bb because I can't be bothered messing with sliders etc. I occasionaly min raise if there's a shorty but that's about it. Anyway I wouldn't read anything into his raise size.

                                                              Originally posted by Lplated View Post
                                                              I'm assuming your only goal is to get it all in here as fast as possible,
                                                              Why do you assume that? The goal is to win as much money as possible so I can waste it on some new runners!

                                                              Originally posted by Lplated View Post
                                                              On your secondary question, if he is a regular, you have more info on him - what is is his call cb figure, or his bet when checked to stat? Can you recall/find previous hands where he called 3bet ?? i.e. think you should put more info into your hypothetical second question...
                                                              I was going to leave that question until later, just hid it so I'd remember it later! Since it's hypothetical I'd just use a standard tag. Not overly aggro, but not a rock either.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                I don't think limping in pre gives you any idea of how aggressive people will be after the flop.
                                                                I would generally assume that serial limpers are likely to be passive post flop

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  I bet 2. He made it 8 and I called. I check called his all in on the turn - he had 9Ts and was drawing dead.

                                                                  How much do I bet against a regular?

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    When i played NL regularly I used to bet about 1/3rd pot in this spot, as it used to get a ton of folds even from regs. Only problem with a bet that small is that you may get floated alot more, but we can also barrel more etc. I've no idea how NL games play these days, but I'd just bet whatever my standard cbet size is on a super dry board.
                                                                    Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      yeah well that's what I'm asking, what is the best standard size in this spot? I'd probably bet around 8 or so, but I htink even that might be too big.

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