100nl 6max - KK in 3b pot deep

[RBBlogger]

Villian stats 24/20/39. 3b button 10%

He 3bets a depolarised range when 100bb deep, so I am putting him on TT+, A9+, K9ss+. Not sure when deep, but I assumed the same. He folds to 4bets 80% of the time but that only over a 5 hand sample. As we are 170 bb deep I elect to call as I dont want him to fold to my 4bet.

Post flop in 3b pots he cbets once and gives up if he whifs the board, so I know he has some equity/made hand when he double barells.. What do you do when he shoves river?


$0.50/$1 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($96.50)
UTG+1 ($26.04)
CO ($120.81)
sawadeekap (BTN) ($183.81)
SB ($169.87)
BB ($152.32)

Pre-Flop: ($1.50, 6 players) sawadeekap is BTN K:club: K:spade:
3 folds, sawadeekap raises to $2.50, SB raises to $10, 1 fold, sawadeekap calls $7.50

Flop: 3:diamond: 4:club: 5:heart: ($21, 2 players)
SB bets $12, sawadeekap calls $12

Turn: 8:diamond: ($45, 2 players)
SB bets $28, sawadeekap calls $28

River: J:heart: ($101, 2 players)
SB goes all-in $119.87, sawadeekap ??

[Bubbleking]

Im not folding - he could be vbetting worse QQ/AJ or just spazzing out. shrug shoulders and call

[Guest]

Combinatorically speaking he has to have a ton of 3 barrel bluffs in his range to call here. Seems like a clear fold if you look at how bad you do against his value range, even if you exclude the 88 and 67s due to the fact that you think he's de-polarised.

As an aside, only 4betting AA here for value is pretty bad from a balance point of view because this is a spot where I'll be 4-bet bluffing a ton as people will snap give up when they realise they're deep and oop and will never 5-bet get it in light.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

21 games 0.001 secs 21,000 games/sec

Board: 3d 4c 5h 8d Jh
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 64.286% 61.90% 02.38% 13 0.50 { QQ+, 88, AdJd, 76s }
Hand 1: 35.714% 33.33% 02.38% 7 0.50 { KcKs }

[RBBlogger]

my pot odds to call are 35% so even if we include some more value hands from outside his depolarised range its a call.. meh..

If i 4b and he 5 bet jams, what do you do?

EDIT: you left out JJ there so that means it would be a fold if put a full value range in there

[Guest]

my pot odds to call are 35% so even if we include some more value hands from outside his depolarised range its a call.. meh..

If i 4b and he 5 bet jams, what do you do?

EDIT: you left out JJ there so that means it would be a fold if put a full value range in there

Anything <200bb I'm not folding KK pre-flop. This is the only time I ever folded KK pre!

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Roelfs ($740.20)
UTG+1 comtuveuxx ($98.00)
CO Hero ($600.00)
BTN ottofranz71 ($244.05)
SB bifffeno ($598.15)
BB Pappe_Ruk ($657.00)

Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is CO K K
Roelfs raises to $7, 1 fold, Hero raises to $24, 1 fold, bifffeno raises to $81, 1 fold, Roelfs raises to $138

[BobSloane]

Combinatorically speaking he has to have a ton of 3 barrel bluffs in his range to call here. Seems like a clear fold if you look at how bad you do against his value range, even if you exclude the 88 and 67s due to the fact that you think he's de-polarised.

As an aside, only 4betting AA here for value is pretty bad from a balance point of view because this is a spot where I'll be 4-bet bluffing a ton as people will snap give up when they realise they're deep and oop and will never 5-bet get it in light.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

21 games 0.001 secs 21,000 games/sec

Board: 3d 4c 5h 8d Jh
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 64.286% 61.90% 02.38% 13 0.50 { QQ+, 88, AdJd, 76s }
Hand 1: 35.714% 33.33% 02.38% 7 0.50 { KcKs }

i'd give him a lot more flush draws - more so because we don't have Kd. Our hand is under repped. He 3bets button 10% (although he's in the sb in this hand ). He prob expects us to fold a decent amount.I call anyway happily

[Guest]

I like the smooth pre however I'm not totally convinced that calling down 3 streets is optimal here, I personally prefer a raise on the flop or turn more likely the turn!!
When he barrels the turn he won't fold any decent flushdraw/ straightdraw or any combination.
I'm just not sure exactly what he is trying to get you to fold on the river 66, 77, 99, TT are the only hands that after calling 2 streets he will fold out on the river.
Probably only hand you're beating that he shoves the river for value is QQ!!
Easy to re-evaluate now and as played I do probably call but I am definitely raising at some point in the hand!!

[Guest]

i'd give him a lot more flush draws - more so because we don't have Kd. Our hand is under repped. He 3bets button 10% (although he's in the sb in this hand ). He prob expects us to fold a decent amount.I call anyway happily

Yeah I guess it all comes to to how many flush draws he can have. On a more general level though, there just aren't a lot of 100nl regs that are capable of barreling off 170bb in a 3bet pot imo. Calling off 120bb in a spot that's around neutral is something I tend to avoid for the most part.

[cardshark202]

If your read is he doesn't barrel much then raising flop seems like the best option on the assumption he can't fold an overpair

[Winning!]

Are only ever planning on calling three barrels on xxx8J rainbow with a set? If you're calling with AA you kinda have to look him up with KK too, cos you're still quite close to the top of your perceived range which is almost entirely sets/PP's or AKs/AQs picking up a BDFD. If villain thinks correctly that you will consider folding anything but the very top of that range you become quite exploitable.

[Arazi]

I'd call so fast it'd make my nose bleed.
I mean thats why we played the hand as we did, isnt it?

[Guest]

Are only ever planning on calling three barrels on xxx8J rainbow with a set? If you're calling with AA you kinda have to look him up with KK too, cos you're still quite close to the top of your perceived range which is almost entirely sets/PP's or AKs/AQs picking up a BDFD. If villain thinks correctly that you will consider folding anything but the very top of that range you become quite exploitable.

Regardless of the board texture, there's a stack size where calling with worse hands than 'x' is bad. If he 500 big blinds on the river then you're probably folding everything but top set and and the straight. You're pretty much in the middle of your range here. All sets and straights are the top, all middling pocket pairs that decide to peel twice, and two AdXd combos are the bottom and KK and AA are the middle.

I don't think a read that a player folds one pair hands for 170bb is that exploitable and we can always adjust by widening our calling range as our reads improve and history develops.

In isolation my experience is that a standard 100nl reg isn't capable of shoving enough missed draws or total air here to make a call anything better than breakeven.

[ghostface]

He 3bets a depolarised range when 100bb deep

Could someone explain this for me so I am correct in what it means?

I am also loving the word Combinatorically zuutroy

[Guest]

Could someone explain this for me so I am correct in what it means?

I am also loving the word Combinatorically zuutroy

Polarised means monster and trash: QQ+ and AK and 67s T9o type of stuff

de-polarised is all sorts in between like K9s QJo. Conventional wisdom is that its better to be polarised when in position because you've got good equity and deception value against a perceived range that people call 3-bets oop with.
OOP you should be de-polarised and 3-bet your KJo because people's calling ranges are wider and will include a lot of hands that you dominate or have very good equity against.

[RBBlogger]

If your read is he doesn't barrel much then raising flop seems like the best option on the assumption he can't fold an overpair

No my read is he cbets flop 100%, x/f turns alot, so raising flop here is pretty pointless as I can take away on turn when he checks, and if he does double barrel it means he has some kind of a hand or some good equity and my hand is still in good shape versus that range on turn.

[RBBlogger]

I mean thats why we played the hand as we did, isnt it?

Answer: Kinda ya

The fact that he has a depolarised range means the way the board ended up I have to call if I believe he would do the exact same with JJ,QQ, KK, AA, which I thought he would.

Therefore I called it off and he showed AA.

If he showed up with 67ss then I would just need to adjust my notes and move on, so depolarised read is spot on but only niggling thought in my head in the aftermath is "Would he always be shoving here with QQ".

[Winning!]

Regardless of the board texture, there's a stack size where calling with worse hands than 'x' is bad. If he 500 big blinds on the river then you're probably folding everything but top set and and the straight.

Granted this is obv stack dependent, I meant a standard situation in which a river shove is roughly potsized.

You're pretty much in the middle of your range here. All sets and straights are the top, all middling pocket pairs that decide to peel twice, and two AdXd combos are the bottom and KK and AA are the middle.

I don't think a read that a player folds one pair hands for 170bb is that exploitable and we can always adjust by widening our calling range as our reads improve and history develops.

In isolation my experience is that a standard 100nl reg isn't capable of shoving enough missed draws or total air here to make a call anything better than breakeven.

Our read is that he 3bets a substantial range, and if he's in any way capable of assigning us a range and guessing at our river calling range, then when he decides to barrel that runout he will intuitively know a river shove is highely +EV, since we are only every calling with 10 of 50-60 combos we have in this spot (76s,JJ,88, and we never have A2/62). That all comes down to how 'capable' he is though..

I am also loving the word Combinatorically zuutroy

Haha, missed this first time around. Someones been using his word-of-the-day toilet paper!

[Guest]

Yeah my main point is that giving people credit for being good is usually a mistake and I don't do it unless the give me good reason too. The overwhelming majority of SSNL regs will play abc when any way deep in my experience.

[alanmc101]

You can never fold this river, totally standard cooler. Gettin trappy here is fine pre but i'd be 4 bettin pre here mostly especially if theres an aggressive dynamic in order to get him to put a lot of hands in pre flop.