What to do

[ferg]

8 handed

blinds 2000/4000, 400 ante


history

At current table 90mins

Button, good player, playing plenty hands and had folded a few pots to reraises, playing about 100k (had been as high as 160k)

sb, crippled by just losing a 100-150k ish size pot to a set a hand or two previous, left with 15k ish

bb (hero), playing 65k, had been as low as 30k, chipped up with a few well placed 3bet shoves, hasn't shown a card yet


folded to button who limps, sb readily ships 15k ish, hero looks down at A10o.......what to do?

[Donk Magnet]

snap imo

[DAMO72]

Ship the loots to isolate.
Going with your reads on the btn If he had a hand he'd be raising into your blinds knowing that the small blind is likely to push atc.

[Arazi]

My first instinct would have been to do what Damo said but thinking about it I might fold, deffo not calling as Button will almost deffo call also.

Button could be trying to entice SB into the hand by limping a strong hand, I think thats how I'd play a premium pair in this instance.
SB unless completely tilted must know he has little FE from the button so could have a hand that plays well against A10.
Also a shove looks very like an isolation bet and you did say Button is decent player so I'm sure he'll know this.

Shoving is not wrong but I'm folding.

[Angry-Ball]

simple ship

[cardshark202]

defo a reship

Edit: if the button is really good there is a slight chance he can be limping better than A10, but i would still ship it in anyway

[Winning!]

Yeah re-shove to isolate the shortstack. It's unfortunate if button just so happens to have limped super-strong this hand

[ferg]

My first instinct would have been to do what Damo said but thinking about it I might fold, deffo not calling as Button will almost deffo call also.

Button could be trying to entice SB into the hand by limping a strong hand, I think thats how I'd play a premium pair in this instance.
SB unless completely tilted must know he has little FE from the button so could have a hand that plays well against A10.
Also a shove looks very like an isolation bet and you did say Button is decent player so I'm sure he'll know this.

Shoving is not wrong but I'm folding.

defo a reship

Edit: if the button is really good there is a slight chance he can be limping better than A10, but i would still ship it in anyway

Yeah re-shove to isolate the shortstack. It's unfortunate if button just so happens to have limped super-strong this hand

How much of a case could be made with this thinking; after chipping up so well by picking good spots to re-shove, ie; table not being most difficult hero's come across, would the most +ev move be to let the button take on the shortie (he may well indeed have adjusted to heros reships previous and limp superstrong not only looking for the sb but heros stack also), forfeit my bb and wait for more of the good spots coming and move one more place up the payout?

[peterswellman]

If the button is a good player, we have to ask ourselves why is he limping on the button? Surely he's trying to induce a ship from the sb, right?

[DAMO72]

How much of a case could be made with this thinking; after chipping up so well by picking good spots to re-shove, ie; table not being most difficult hero's come across, would the most +ev move be to let the button take on the shortie (he may well indeed have adjusted to heros reships previous and limp superstrong not only looking for the sb but heros stack also), forfeit my bb and wait for more of the good spots coming and move one more place up the payout?

If you want to move up the money ladder it's a push .
if you are playing for 1st it's a push.

If you think of folding here then you need to reconsider why you are playing this game in the first place .

If your reads on the btn here a correct then he almost never has a hand here that he is willing to put 2/3rds of his stack on the line for .
If he has then your reads are wrong.

[DAMO72]

If the button is a good player, we have to ask ourselves why is he limping on the button? Surely he's trying to induce a ship from the sb, right?

With blinds at 2k/4k i would suspect the btn would be raising here with decent holding's .
I would think that his limp here suggests that he is willing to call off 15k if the sb pushes but he is not willing to race for 2/3rds of his stack, so he is waiting to see what the BB does.

[peterswellman]

With blinds at 2k/4k i would suspect the btn would be raising here with decent holding's .
I would think that his limp here suggests that he is willing to call off 15k if the sb pushes but he is not willing to race for 2/3rds of his stack, so he is waiting to see what the BB does.

I'd personally limp a monster here to induce a shove. I'd shove/raise into those two stacks a good bit too though. What type of hands is he limping here? Fwiw, if he's limping weak holdings here I cannot see how he's a good player.

[islander32]

if the button is limping here with the intention of folding to the sb shove then ur reads are wrong......he may have a hand tat he will commit against the sb but doesn't want to run your stack as well.... fook it ferg i iso the sb here and if button has it then gg wp..
sometimes we can over think the game ..

btw what stakes is this at

[ferg]

I'd personally limp a monster here to induce a shove. I'd shove/raise into those two stacks a good bit too though. What type of hands is he limping here? Fwiw, if he's limping weak holdings here I cannot see how he's a good player.

You see this would have to be a key to this hand, and probably more so after the button folding to a few of reraises in recent hands (a couple from the villain at that), all the more reason for him to change tactic and try something different?

My reads were that he was good and more than capable of changing his game, i did wonder what could he be limping with only the bells werent ringing loud enough. I mulled over it for a few secs and reshipped, button readily counted out his chips and called, flipped over AQ, it held, gg wp sir.

Consensus here is that i made the right move, with the exception of a couple. It was a very hard spot to get away from....and to damo, normally i'd play as you have explained, thus reshipped.

When i thought about the hand later i just wondered could i have got away from it....

It was D-day 3, with 24 left Noel

Thanks for all the replies lads

[DAMO72]

You are most definately 100% right with your play here and unlucky to walk into the btn with a hand .
The one thing that is questionable is the btn's line in this hand . It is terrabad for him not to be raising knowing full well that the sb is gonna shove atc and then his call for 2/3rds of his stack with AQ at this stage of the tourney is imo ridiculous .

[Caf]

Interesting spot ferg.

I fold this pre given the reads, a crying fold all the same. So villain showed up with AQ, if he is a competent player then that should be the bottom of his range. I'd expect our hand to be crushed by villain's range 100% of the time.

If you want to move up the ladder and not down it's a fold.
If you are playing for 1st it's a fold.

If you don't think of folding here then you need to reconsider why you are playing this game.

If your reads on the btn here a correct then he almost always has the nuts and is committed to calling every time.
If he folds then your reads are wrong.

FYP


Makes no sense to me for A10 to be good here and even less sense that the button is folding to a reshove imo.

[DAMO72]

Interesting spot ferg.

I fold this pre given the reads, a crying fold all the same. So villain showed up with AQ, if he is a competent player then that should be the bottom of his range. I'd expect our hand to be crushed by villain's range 100% of the time.



FYP


Makes no sense to me for A10 to be good here and even less sense that the button is folding to a reshove imo.

Results based post FTW.
WP

[Caf]

Results based post FTW.
WP

Lol, not at all(ferg just likes to post results too soon and I was too busy to post earlier). No competent player should ever ever ever limp here without being willing to commit their stack. It's far too obvious what the SB is going to do and a competent player should see this, the same as our hero did.

I'm playing ftw and folding. Lol @ your 'you need to consider why you are playing the game if you think about folding here'.

Completely backwards thinking to expect the button to be limping light, he would not be competent if he is limping light.

[ferg]

Interesting spot ferg.

I fold this pre given the reads, a crying fold all the same. So villain showed up with AQ, if he is a competent player then that should be the bottom of his range. I'd expect our hand to be crushed by villain's range 100% of the time.

Cheers for the input Caf,

I guess what i have taken from it is that for to note good players limping...especially when at the thick end of a tourney!

So caf i guess AQ in that spot would be your worst hand reship?

[Caf]

Cheers for the input Caf,

I guess what i have taken from it is that for to note good players limping...especially when at the thick end of a tourney!

So caf i guess AQ in that spot would be your worst hand reship?

Tbh the limp looks stronger than AQ to me which makes it bad to ship AQ, although there would prob be a tear in my eye folding it. QQ+ for me and even then I would only be happy to shove AA/KK.

[peterswellman]

You are most definately 100% right with your play here and unlucky to walk into the btn with a hand .
The one thing that is questionable is the btn's line in this hand . It is terrabad for him not to be raising knowing full well that the sb is gonna shove atc and then his call for 2/3rds of his stack with AQ at this stage of the tourney is imo ridiculous .

How is it unlucky? The button has gotten us to ship much worse than his hand. He jams you call anyway but his whole plan was for the sb to ship and when our hero reships he cannot believe his luck. How is it terrabad?

The bolded part makes no sense to me. We're going to have to flip to win any MTT. In fact, here we crush alot of the hero's shoving range. We've set up and getting a great price for a huge stack. I think villian played it fine, personally i'd raise/call and only limp hands like Caf has in his range. QQ+.

[NuckChorris]

I'm in the snap-shove camp. Button can be limping with any ace, KQ/KJ, any pair and be prepared to take on the SB. You have to have a hand like you do to make a move and although it worked out well for the button I don't think you have any choice here with 16BB. You know you're good against the SB's range and you get the button to fold most of his limping range.

For the sake of your arguement about knowing the button is good and should only be limping with premium then there's every chance the SB also knows this and will peel a flop, only shipping if he hits a pair or draw. I don't like the button play basically and ship A10 100%.

[peterswellman]

I'm in the snap-shove camp. Button can be limping with any ace, KQ/KJ, any pair and be prepared to take on the SB. You have to have a hand like you do to make a move and although it worked out well for the button I don't think you have any choice here with 16BB. You know you're good against the SB's range and you get the button to fold most of his limping range.

For the sake of your arguement about knowing the button is good and should only be limping with premium then there's every chance the SB also knows this and will peel a flop, only shipping if he hits a pair or draw. I don't like the button play basically and ship A10 100%.

Button should be shoving aces, KQ and KJ here and pairs. Do people ever see 'good' players limping these hands here because wherever ye play I want an invite. You do have a choice, A10 is not snap shove for 16bb when the button is screaming strength.

If the sb knows he's only limping premium why would he peel? Surely a fold would be best?

[ferg]

Button should be shoving aces, KQ and KJ here and pairs. Do people ever see 'good' players limping these hands here because wherever ye play I want an invite. You do have a choice, A10 is not snap shove for 16bb when the button is screaming strength.

If the sb knows he's only limping premium why would he peel? Surely a fold would be best?

Quality post dude.....

so fold and get back to business with my 15bb

[peterswellman]

Quality post dude.....

so fold and get back to business with my 15bb

Sigh folding man. I hate it. If he shoves/raises you snap aswell so he was getting either way. UL.

[anymorejokes]

Tbh the limp looks stronger than AQ to me which makes it bad to ship AQ, although there would prob be a tear in my eye folding it. QQ+ for me and even then I would only be happy to shove AA/KK.

i'm shipping the a10 ere, just from above Caf your folding jj and aq?? care to explain? Do you think the button limps better than this every time? we have 16bb, surely the button can raise to 2.2 to induce a ship rather than limping his 'monsters'

[Caf]

i'm shipping the a10 ere, just from above Caf your folding jj and aq?? care to explain? Do you think the button limps better than this every time? we have 16bb, surely the button can raise to 2.2 to induce a ship rather than limping his 'monsters'

The limp makes little sense, I don't limp. When I see a good player limp I get suspicious and as a result assign a tight range. If I give villain's limp a tight range of QQ+, then it would be terribad for me to shove worse. Our stack size is 16bb, but that doesn't change much about villain's limp except make it stronger imo because BB might ship lighter to isolate, as many people would who have posted in the thread, yourself included. Yes I do think the button limps(or at least should limp) strong every time, but that is how I see it.

[anymorejokes]

The limp makes little sense, I don't limp. When I see a good player limp I get suspicious and as a result assign a tight range. If I give villain's limp a tight range of QQ+, then it would be terribad for me to shove worse. Our stack size is 16bb, but that doesn't change much about villain's limp except make it stronger imo because BB might ship lighter to isolate, as many people would who have posted in the thread, yourself included. Yes I do think the button limps(or at least should limp) strong every time, but that is how I see it.

(or at least should limp) strong every time..... It a live game, I think you can give the button a much wider range. Like others said he most likely decided to limp with a hand hes willing to call off the sb stack both not the bb's stack. i think it would be very bad to fold jj,1010 etc ere...and AQ, If you give him that range you have to but id def widen it

Just because its stated that hes a good player doesn't mean he is,,,,before anyone says something i have no idea who this is and am just taking into account that its a 60 euro live game... He could see ace rag ere think oo i don't want to raise fold to this guy again but will call the 15k no prob i'll just go and limp.

[Caf]

We were told he was a good player so we should assume that villain is good.

Even if you widen his range to 1010/JJ/AQ then A10 is a fold, right?

[anymorejokes]

We were told he was a good player so we should assume that villain is good.

Even if you widen his range to 1010/JJ/AQ then A10 is a fold, right?

Well if his range is 1010 or better or AQ or better i can def fold A10

I'm assuming his range is much wider i obvs could be very wrong

The people saying to shove also must think his range is wider than the one given above 2.

i shove in this spot i think still, i know where your coming from I just think in a live 60 euro game he limp folds ere a load.

[Caf]

If he limp folds ever here I can't see why someone would class him as a good player(the buy-in being irrelevant because it is a competent player regardless). It's pretty clear of the two scenarios which are going to happen from his limp:

1) SB shoves, BB folds

2) SB shoves, BB reshoves

If he limp/folds he is just spewing chips since it seems pretty obvious that the SB is shoving over the limp.

It all depends on what range you give the limp and obv then your shoving range will come from that.

I don't like ignoring the limp and shoving on the basis that we are ahead of the SBs range, but obv I would give a tight range for the button.

[anymorejokes]

If he limp folds ever here I can't see why someone would class him as a good player(the buy-in being irrelevant because it is a competent player regardless). It's pretty clear of the two scenarios which are going to happen from his limp:

1) SB shoves, BB folds

2) SB shoves, BB reshoves

If he limp/folds he is just spewing chips since it seems pretty obvious that the SB is shoving over the limp.

It all depends on what range you give the limp and obv then your shoving range will come from that.

I don't like ignoring the limp and shoving on the basis that we are ahead of the SBs range, but obv I would give a tight range for the button.

Ive said what I think, Were only disagreeing with the limper's range. I didn't view him as a 'good' player once i seen the words limp and button used with each other. I don't see why we would limp ere on the button with any hand tbh.

Id like to hear others thoughts on the buttons range for limping ere.

[Mellor]

i'm shipping the a10 ere, just from above Caf your folding jj and aq?? care to explain? Do you think the button limps better than this every time? we have 16bb, surely the button can raise to 2.2 to induce a ship rather than limping his 'monsters'

I imagine you mean 2.2 BBs.
Raising small like that could actually be the worst move of all.

Even if he min-raises, an SB re-ship is an underraise (under the double the total rule), which means he loses his ability to isolate should the BB flat. I didn't see anyone mention it but I think its a factor. And possibly the reason he limped. the fact that the SB has 15k and not 16k makes a difference to the hand.

I'm assuming his range is much wider i obvs could be very wrong

What range do you put him on?

Ive said what I think, Were only disagreeing with the limper's range. I didn't view him as a 'good' player once i seen the words limp and button used with each other. I don't see why we would limp ere on the button with any hand tbh.
Id like to hear others thoughts on the buttons range for limping ere.

As above, the reason I think he is limping is that he is expecting the SB to ship and he wants to keep his option to isolate. Given that we now know his holdings, I think its a pretty good assessment. I don't think he was doing to see if he could take on SB alone as you suggest

[Winning!]

Button can be limping pretty wide here, hoping to call off a SB shove heads up. Mostly I feel he doesn't want to raise, have SB under-shove, and invite BB in with enticing pot odds. OR have BB re-shove and force him to fold a semi-decent hand. His range here is most likely polarised between super strong (QQ+) and semi-decent (KQ/QJ/JT/Ax/etc..)

With his strong but not super-strong range (AQ+,99+), I feel he would still raise, to induce a shove from not only SB, but from BB too, and he doesn't mind playing a big pot with these hands (or getting into an awkward spot if BB flats) and can easily justifying a call of a BB reshove.

For the most part it looks like he is taking the cautious route, as he can easily afford to call off SB, but doesn't want to be put to a decision for heaps of chips if BB gets involved also

[anymorejokes]

I imagine you mean 2.2 BBs.
Raising small like that could actually be the worst move of all.

Even if he min-raises, an SB re-ship is an underraise (under the double the total rule), which means he loses his ability to isolate should the BB flat. I didn't see anyone mention it but I think its a factor. And possibly the reason he limped. the fact that the SB has 15k and not 16k makes a difference to the hand.




What range do you put him on?



As above, the reason I think he is limping is that he is expecting the SB to ship and he wants to keep his option to isolate. Given that we now know his holdings, I think its a pretty good assessment. I don't think he was doing to see if he could take on SB alone as you suggest

Really raising 'small' is the worst move of all? The bb has being active and 3 bet shoving a lot.. hes going to fold or shove most of the time. Also raising 2.2-2.5bb is all i'm raising it ere. most likely 2.2 this late in a tourney, if online 2x

Yes a pretty good assessment after you know he has AQ....

I'd give him a range of small pocket pairs, Ax, Broadway cards. I think he raises stronger, yes he may have QQ plus a small amount of the time. fair play to him if he did.The fact he had AQ should not have being mentioned so soon.

[Mellor]

Really raising 'small' is the worst move of all? The bb has being active and 3 bet shoving a lot.. hes going to fold or shove most of the time. Also raising 2.2-2.5bb is all i'm raising it ere. most likely 2.2 this late in a tourney, if online 2x

Yeah, raising small with the strongest part of your range would be terrible. It's pretty basic stuff. He has been active, if he sudden maes a small raise when the SB is expected to shove it stands out. The fact that you are open to an under rasie makes it worse.
Just raise your normal amount.
If the button has been 3 betting alot, i don't have a huge problem with setting up a squeeze.

Yes a pretty good assessment after you know he has AQ....

Agree it shouldn't of been posted so early.
But what he was doing in this exact hand is of little consequences really

[TheDrunkenOne]

hmmm..just come across this thread and so give my 2 cents worth

imho its a shove or fold

I therefore take into consideration the payout structure and other stacks on table and whether letting blinds and antes go through me will leave me crippled and no fold equity

I also take into his (button) range here and sb range which is though wide has to be considered

all in all I am looking at a fold TBH with heros stack here as any AJ-AK and 22-AA from the button is looking at a race with 22-99 and as low as 25%-30% with a big ace or pair

maybe a bit nitty if u are a FTW at all times player but rather get in in when i am feeling more comfortable tbh

[anymorejokes]

Yeah, raising small with the strongest part of your range would be terrible. It's pretty basic stuff. He has been active, if he sudden maes a small raise when the SB is expected to shove it stands out. The fact that you are open to an under rasie makes it worse.
Just raise your normal amount.
If the button has been 3 betting alot, i don't have a huge problem with setting up a squeeze.


Agree it shouldn't of been posted so early.
But what he was doing in this exact hand is of little consequences really

i'm assuming the buttons normal raise is 2.2-2.5bb......

[Mellor]

i'm assuming the buttons normal raise is 2.2-2.5bb......

I think i mixed up two posts when you said raise small, you were quoting me and not suggesting raising smaller than normal. Dunno where I got that tbh. think I though you were saying 2.2 with mnosters and bigger with the rest.

So we're saying the same thing, just raise normally with your whole range and hope for a squeeze.

(Obviously he limped in the OP and it plays differently)

[anymorejokes]

I think i mixed up two posts when you said raise small, you were quoting me and not suggesting raising smaller than normal. Dunno where I got that tbh. think I though you were saying 2.2 with mnosters and bigger with the rest.

So we're saying the same thing, just raise normally with your whole range and hope for a squeeze.

(Obviously he limped in the OP and it plays differently)

That makes sense!!! Yes were saying the same thing so regarding the raise size, I thought you were saying that raising to 2.2 was bad always my bad

[CHDad]

Fold. Easy. I'm a champ so listen to me.

[CHDad]

Ship the loots to isolate.
Going with your reads on the btn If he had a hand he'd be raising into your blinds knowing that the small blind is likely to push atc.

This isn't a soap.