Tough Spot in IWF?

[MarkShepherd]

IWF 2012, day 2. Blinds 600/1200 ante 100. Approx 100 left, 40 get paid.

Hero has about 70k (58BBs)

UTG+1 (No real reads but we know he is a competent player) with 90k stack raises to 2700.
Hero is UTG+3, looks down at QQ and 3bets to 5900.
Folded to BB (no real reads but foreign and fairly tight so far) who 4 bet shoves all in for 48k (40BBs).
UTG+1 tank folds.

Hero?

Thoughts welcome

[Guest]

I think a bit more info on your own personal play and how u.felt u were perceived be it aggressive etc. But considerin u said nothing like that ill presume u weren't being too.nitty or aggro so given that I think it's a definite call, u.must presume that your crushing his range here, the fact that utg is competent means your 3bet range can be much wider to include bluffs and smaller value hands 88,99,AJ etc therefore his 4 betting jamming range is so much wider. You are only behind and flipping wit 3 hands which I'm not even.sure 2 of them or at least definitely not AA makes much his shoving range so smile and say call I think

[MarkShepherd]

It is fairly early on in day 2 so I don't think there are many reads on me and I haven't been getting out of line.

[Guest]

Yeah I can't find a fold here too often tbh maybe others fold but I think I call Herr the vast majority of the time

[*PocketRockets*]

Can't fold here. Sometimes you just have to play these through.

If it was 45-50 left it might be worth waiting.

[Winning!]

flat the first time. Would need a strong read/tell to fold as played, might find one vs a non-AI 4b but facing a shove I just call it off.

[premierstone]

flat the first time. Would need a strong read/tell to fold as played, might find one vs a non-AI 4b but facing a shove I just call it off.

Not questioning you in any way Winning as I always pay attention to your analysis and have alot of respect for your opinion, but why are you advocating flatting here with a premium hand, the initial raise was only 2.25 BBs so if you flat you are only inviting more players into the hand now they are getting ''value''' as they may perceive it. Personally I'm 3 betting here like 75-95% of the time.

[Winning!]

We want to keep a decent players range as wide as possible when IP with a strong holding, and also want to avoid a tricky spot against a much tighter range that 4b. Don't mind the 3b all that much if villain will see flops a lot, just prefer the flat in a vacuum really

[MarkShepherd]

Any thoughts on whether soft nature of the field comes into play here. If we think the shove screams of AK and we think we have a big advantage over the field does that come into our thinking in getting involved in a possible 100bb flip?

[Guest]

We want to keep a decent players range as wide as possible when IP with a strong holding, and also want to avoid a tricky spot against a much tighter range that 4b. Don't mind the 3b all that much if villain will see flops a lot, just prefer the flat in a vacuum really

Just to ask, might sound like a bit of a noob but what exactly do you mean, "just prefer the flat in a vacuum"???

[Strewelpeter]

Any thoughts on whether soft nature of the field comes into play here. If we think the shove screams of AK and we think we have a big advantage over the field does that come into our thinking in getting involved in a possible 100bb flip?

Currently the fashion appears to be to say no I won't take the small edge because I'll find better spots in a soft field. However if you even hint at the phrase 'Tournament Life' you'll be in for a lecture on how every edge no matter how small must be exploited.

[sickhabbit]

@ Brady23
I think he means without any info on villain/gameflow etc.

[MarkShepherd]

And if UTG+1 had shoved all in what is our play?

[Arazi]

I would deffo fold to that action having only put c8% of my stack in - completely different scenario.

UTG+1 "should" have AK QQ+ minimum in this format (deep 1h clock) but I'd expect to see KK and AA often.

[peterswellman]

Any thoughts on whether soft nature of the field comes into play here. If we think the shove screams of AK and we think we have a big advantage over the field does that come into our thinking in getting involved in a possible 100bb flip?

Currently the fashion appears to be to say no I won't take the small edge because I'll find better spots in a soft field. However if you even hint at the phrase 'Tournament Life' you'll be in for a lecture on how every edge no matter how small must be exploited.

Folding here if we know he specifically has AK is a massive leak. It's not so much passing up a small edge but it's mathematically incorrect to fold here. Give the dead 14,500 it would be a huge leak to pass up this edge. With this dead money in there, we're getting a much better price on our flip. Certainly much better than if we opened and got crammed on for 40bb. That's a tiny edge and one we could possibly not take(I would take it regardless) but this one is a snap fist pump get it in given the price.

[40something]

You cant polarise him to AKo/AKs, AA & KK are there also:

47,944,512 games 0.000 secs 9,588,902,400 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.857% 39.64% 00.22% 19005028 104399.00 { QcQd }
Hand 1: 60.143% 59.92% 00.22% 28730686 104399.00 { KK+, AKs, AKo }

The current pot is 600 + 1200 + 900 (antes) + 2700 + 5900 = 11300

The shove is for 48000 (5,900 + 42100).

So we need to call 42100 to win a total pot of (59300+42100) = 101400

I think its 41% so its a call.

[peterswellman]

You cant polarise him to AKo/AKs, AA & KK are there also:

47,944,512 games 0.000 secs 9,588,902,400 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.857% 39.64% 00.22% 19005028 104399.00 { QcQd }
Hand 1: 60.143% 59.92% 00.22% 28730686 104399.00 { KK+, AKs, AKo }

The current pot is 600 + 1200 + 900 (antes) + 2700 + 5900 = 11300

The shove is for 48000 (5,900 + 42100).

So we need to call 42100 to win a total pot of (59300+42100) = 101400

I think its 41% so its a call.

I think QQ and JJ are there too tbh.

[MarkShepherd]

I would deffo fold to that action having only put c8% of my stack in - completely different scenario.

UTG+1 "should" have AK QQ+ minimum in this format (deep 1h clock) but I'd expect to see KK and AA often.

UTG+1 tank folded 1010 after strongly considering shoving to isolate. It's interesting because if we consider that UTG+1 might shove with a view to isolating with a weaker pair then it arguably means we should be more likely to call for a 3-way all in. Plus there is the side pot if you think you might be dominating some of UTG+1s range.

[Arazi]

UTG+1 tank folded 1010 after strongly considering shoving to isolate. It's interesting because if we consider that UTG+1 might shove with a view to isolating with a weaker pair then it arguably means we should be more likely to call for a 3-way all in. Plus there is the side pot if you think you might be dominating some of UTG+1s range.

I think if I was UTG+1 here I'd have to view you as quite LAGGY and have a wide 3 betting range to want to risk 3/4 of my stack here with 10s against a reraise and then a shove by a supposed tight BB.
I guess if he knew more about the BB than you and suspected a squeeze then he could ship it knowing that his range then looks polarised to top premium hands. However its still a questionable play on his part and in a vacuum or based off your OP discriptions I still fold QQ in your spot should the UTG+1 ship.

[kenttheking]

SNAP

[Degenerate88]

flat the first time. Would need a strong read/tell to fold as played, might find one vs a non-AI 4b but facing a shove I just call it off.

Pretty much as Winning said. If UTG+1 reshoves however I would need a pretty strong read/tell to call given the action. If all players involved are playing very laggy this of course changes.