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Old 13-04-12, 11:26   #41
MarkShepherd
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Cheers, gutted I didn't go deeper given started day 3 5th in chips, but took a big hit early on when I ran KK into Dempsey's set on q76 board.

Yeah I suppose that makes sense. I didn't realise he was as low as 40 BBs, for some reason I thought blinds were smaller.

I tried to stay out of Sean's way, there was once I nearly 4 bet him from button, decided against it and he showed AA! Was relieved when he busted, sic call from Andy IMO
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Old 13-04-12, 12:34   #42
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All I keep picturing in my head while reading this thread was Sean with his laptop and a big bowl of popcorn. 4bet call a shove sure we don't like it but thats what great players like Sean do they put you those spots. Everyone has missed the biggest point, Sean knows your stack size and knows also that you will not be 4betting light as you cant fold so this makes him even more inclined to be 3betting light. You just have to take 4bet here even if we don't like it but it is a much better option than playing Sean oop if your not confident enough or lol folding.
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Old 13-04-12, 12:40   #43
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Bloody hell, 4bet/call this all day long.

He's 3bet you liberally and you've not played back once, he probably thinks he can run you over, pretty likely given its a tough table imo.

You have AK. What are you waiting for? Making it 12200 here and snapping a shove. Anything else is plain bad imo.
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Old 13-04-12, 13:08   #44
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I would rather call here and see the flop. We are in bad shape if he shoves over our 4b but we have to call given the odds against his very strong range but just because we have the rights odds to call doesn't mean that 4betting is a good play. If you had 100bb stacks and 4b someone to 90bb with 72o you would also have to 4b/call but doesn't mean that the 4b was the correct play which I am not sure it is here either.

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Originally Posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
All I keep picturing in my head while reading this thread was Sean with his laptop and a big bowl of popcorn. 4bet call a shove sure we don't like it but thats what great players like Sean do they put you those spots. Everyone has missed the biggest point, Sean knows your stack size and knows also that you will not be 4betting light as you cant fold so this makes him even more inclined to be 3betting light. You just have to take 4bet here even if we don't like it but it is a much better option than playing Sean oop if your not confident enough or lol folding.
He can very easily be 3betting light but I doubt someone is going to 5b light much here at all give that we are not going to be 4b folding much. I think 4betting as a bluff would be a much better play here if our hand wasn't AK as we should get him to fold a lot and if he shoves well we can make an easy fold.

The problem overall is that we make him fold all his worse hands very often and he only shoves with better ones which is not exactly what we want to be making him do, makes life very easy for him, sure it makes the hand play easily but that doesn't mean its the most profitable play.

Anyway super tough spot, how did the hand play out?
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Old 13-04-12, 13:21   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digiman View Post

Anyway super tough spot, how did the hand play out?
I 4bet to 11.5k and we got It in. He had KK and I hit a straight on the river!
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Old 13-04-12, 13:25   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shano_88 View Post
I 4bet to 11.5k and we got It in. He had KK and I hit a straight on the river!
4bet shoving was the right play then so
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Old 13-04-12, 13:29   #47
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hmm on a personal level, it's very worrying that I'm reading/posting in strategy threads after the pub.
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Old 13-04-12, 14:02   #48
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Originally Posted by Arazi View Post
I'm not advocating his range is nutted at all but his 5betting range would be close to nutted against OP's image hence why I don't like 4bet calling as much as folding.
I think AKQJ10 posted a very similar thread to this over a year back following a discussion with Nick Heather?
My thread was about early levels in tournaments, and it was during a period when most people werent 3betting pre antes.

This hand is just a question of how to get the chips in, Id just make it like 13k to call a shove.
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Old 13-04-12, 14:39   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shano_88 View Post
Started the Hand with 45k and the blinds are 500/1k/100.
Were into the second level of day 2 and I have a tough enough table draw with Sean Prendiville and Andy Black to my direct left who both cover.
Recent History: Sean Prendeville has 3bet me 3/4 last times Ive opened. He 3b bu vs co and cbet a k66 board and I check/called blank turn check/check and he potted a river Ace and I payed off to be shown A10 and he squeezed in the Bb vs Sb and Bu and showed Aces.


I raise Ako utg to 2.2k and Sean 3bets to 5.1k next to act. Its folded back around to me. Whats your play from here?
The fact that I had been 3betting you so much would usually mean I'm 5b/calling or shoving lighter, but it's a bit different here, first of all it's the first time I'd 3bet you from EP and you had def tightened up since I 3b you last, having said that I'm prob 3betting you pretty wide here still, although my getting it in range is much tighter. Also, I didn't think you were gonna spaz out 4betting shit (which makes it all the more profitable to 3b!), although you prob think that I think you were, I would if I was you.

If I am in you're spot with ak I'm just looking for any way to get as many chips as possible in pre against this fucker who keeps 3betting me so you played it fine, although you're not in great shape against my getting it in range, you're still gonna win the pot so much with your 4bet that it's fine. flatting is an option I suppose, you'll win a good bit from me on A and K high boards vs. my 3betting range cause I'll barrel it off a good bit, but it'll prob be tough on a lot of others...

Did you really have the flush in that hand where I had 56?

Last edited by MisterMonkey; 13-04-12 at 14:45.
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Old 13-04-12, 14:40   #50
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So what's the cut off point then? How many bbs do we have to have before we're uncomfortable putting our whole tournament on the line with AK all in pre?
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Old 13-04-12, 14:56   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMonkey View Post
The fact that I had been 3betting you so much would usually mean I'm 5b/calling or shoving lighter, but it's a bit different here, first of all it's the first time I'd 3bet you from EP and you had def tightened up since I 3b you last, having said that I'm prob 3betting you pretty wide here still, although my getting it in range is much tighter. Also, I didn't think you were gonna spaz out 4betting shit (which makes it all the more profitable to 3b!), although you prob think that I think you were, I would if I was you.

If I am in you're spot with ak I'm just looking for any way to get as many chips as possible in pre against this fucker who keeps 3betting me so you played it fine, although you're not in great shape against my getting it in range, you're still gonna win the pot so much with your 4bet that it's fine. flatting is an option I suppose, you'll win a good bit from me on A and K high boards vs. my 3betting range cause I'll barrel it off a good bit, but it'll prob be tough on a lot of others...

Did you really have the flush in that hand where I had 56?

Thanks for the analysis. And yes I really had j9ss. Great fold!
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Old 13-04-12, 15:00   #52
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Quote:
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So what's the cut off point then? How many bbs do we have to have before we're uncomfortable putting our whole tournament on the line with AK all in pre?
In general it depends on way too many factors to have a definitive answer. I presume you mean in this spot though vs Sean, I'd probably get it in pre with <40bbs always, flat sometimes and get it in sometimes with 40-50bbs and be flatting the 3bet any deeper, never folding obv.
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Old 13-04-12, 15:18   #53
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Old 13-04-12, 15:35   #54
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What are people doing with TT, JJ, QQ and AQ in this spot, same stacksize
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Old 13-04-12, 17:20   #55
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hmm on a personal level, it's very worrying that I'm reading/posting in strategy threads after the pub.
Not worrying at all, your learning how to play better drunk which is the way forward imo.
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Old 13-04-12, 18:03   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJFF View Post
What are people doing with TT, JJ, QQ and AQ in this spot, same stacksize
I'd play QQ the same as AK, i'd see a flop with the others and assess from there.

Yeah we're OOP vs a strong opponent and he'll put us in tough spots but we have to be prepared for that, otherwise we may as well just get up and leave.
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Old 13-04-12, 18:05   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digiman View Post
I would rather call here and see the flop. We are in bad shape if he shoves over our 4b but we have to call given the odds against his very strong range but just because we have the rights odds to call doesn't mean that 4betting is a good play. If you had 100bb stacks and 4b someone to 90bb with 72o you would also have to 4b/call but doesn't mean that the 4b was the correct play which I am not sure it is here either.



He can very easily be 3betting light but I doubt someone is going to 5b light much here at all give that we are not going to be 4b folding much. I think 4betting as a bluff would be a much better play here if our hand wasn't AK as we should get him to fold a lot and if he shoves well we can make an easy fold.

The problem overall is that we make him fold all his worse hands very often and he only shoves with better ones which is not exactly what we want to be making him do, makes life very easy for him, sure it makes the hand play easily but that doesn't mean its the most profitable play.

Anyway super tough spot, how did the hand play out?
I think you over thoought what I said mate, basically I would flat too but for this opponent his +ev move is to 4bet (obv depends on his post flop play).
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Old 13-04-12, 18:47   #58
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What are people doing with TT, JJ, QQ and AQ in this spot, same stacksize
prefer 4 bet getting it in with the pairs, better shap vs his spazzale dazzle range
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Old 13-04-12, 19:18   #59
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lol im sure prenderville is laughing his ass off at this thread ...folding obviously madness
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Old 13-04-12, 19:20   #60
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Originally Posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
I think you over thoought what I said mate, basically I would flat too but for this opponent his +ev move is to 4bet (obv depends on his post flop play).
What about the levels within the levels?
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