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Old 06-02-12, 15:33   #1
connie147
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EMOP Final Table Spot

Hi Lads,
Appretiate ye're thoughts on a spot i found difficult on the FT of the EMOP in Prague last weekend. Some background info:

8 players left I think (its 8 or 9)
Average stack is approx 500k, I have 300k, Villian has 230k. There are 2 other stacks about same size as villians and the others all have big stacks.
We have been playing for an hour on the FT, and the villian is not known to me. All I know is he is a Chech player, part of the casinos pro team. I did not play at his table anytime during the tournament.

I have been playing very few hands due to being dealt loads of shyte. Got a couple of raises through and 3-bet shoved a lag player once on the FT, so my image has been tight.

As for villian, he has not been involved much. He did reraise all in on his bb once to a c/o raise and was called, and both players turned up AK. So thats all the info I have.

On to the hand. Me UTG, Villian in sb.

Blinds 6000-12000 with a 1000 ante. I look down at A-Qo, easily my best hand so far, and I open for 27k. (im playing 25 x bb's total)
Folded around to villian in the sb and he shoves for 230k.

And I?

Further information that might help. This is the payout structure, jumps are getting decent

1: 58,900
2: 35,340
3: 23,560
4; 14,320
5: 11,080
6: 9,000
7: 7,850
8: 6,690
9: 5,540

Something else ye might take into account. I was disappointed with my table draw.The 2 big stacks (both 1 million plus) and aggressive players were drawn in seat 1 and seat 9, and I am in seat 7. They kept me alive from 2 tables in as I was able to use my image and get my 3 bets and shoves through them without any trouble, only called once and got doubled up by one of them. So I do have a bad seat at this table.

Hope thats enough info for ye to discuss the above hand.
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Old 06-02-12, 15:39   #2
Downtown
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Without anything specific telling you otherwise I call.

To be more specific myself. From the stack descriptions it seems like you are the only player at the table with a stack he could shove comfortably over with fold equity. If hes a pro, then this makes his range even wider imo. You already beat villains range in general here. He has a few worse A's, underpairs, some KQs type hands aswell as he top of his range that beats you. Im not sure of any ICM calculations but my guess would be its still a call.

Last edited by Downtown; 06-02-12 at 15:43.
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Old 06-02-12, 15:41   #3
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I played pretty much an identical hand with Derek Murry on the IPC FT 3 years ago, he was utg with your hand I was in the BB, he called.

Results below.

Spoiler
#


I normally play a lot of hands so people shove on me a lot lighter than they do on you, I call pretty much all the time with your hand, but prob fold if I am you (if you know what I mean)
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Old 06-02-12, 15:50   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
You already beat villains range in general here. He has a few worse A's, underpairs, some KQs type hands aswell as he top of his range that beats you.
Given the description above i'm not too sure I agree with this. Hero's image for utg opens playing 25bbs, you really think villain turns up with AJ, A10 , KQ enough of the time for it to be a call?

Given your image and description of villain I probably hate myself and fold. Think it's really close though.
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Old 06-02-12, 16:02   #5
jazzyfish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by connie147 View Post
Hi Lads,
Appretiate ye're thoughts on a spot i found difficult on the FT of the EMOP in Prague last weekend. Some background info:

8 players left I think (its 8 or 9)
Average stack is approx 500k, I have 300k, Villian has 230k. There are 2 other stacks about same size as villians and the others all have big stacks.
We have been playing for an hour on the FT, and the villian is not known to me. All I know is he is a Chech player, part of the casinos pro team. I did not play at his table anytime during the tournament.

I have been playing very few hands due to being dealt loads of shyte. Got a couple of raises through and 3-bet shoved a lag player once on the FT, so my image has been tight.

As for villian, he has not been involved much. He did reraise all in on his bb once to a c/o raise and was called, and both players turned up AK. So thats all the info I have.

On to the hand. Me UTG, Villian in sb.

Blinds 6000-12000 with a 1000 ante. I look down at A-Qo, easily my best hand so far, and I open for 27k. (im playing 25 x bb's total)
Folded around to villian in the sb and he shoves for 230k.

And I?

Further information that might help. This is the payout structure, jumps are getting decent

1: €58,900
2: €35,340
3: €23,560
4; €14,320
5: €11,080
6: €9,000
7: €7,850
8: €6,690
9: €5,540

Something else ye might take into account. I was disappointed with my table draw.The 2 big stacks (both 1 million plus) and aggressive players were drawn in seat 1 and seat 9, and I am in seat 7. They kept me alive from 2 tables in as I was able to use my image and get my 3 bets and shoves through them without any trouble, only called once and got doubled up by one of them. So I do have a bad seat at this table.

Hope thats enough info for ye to discuss the above hand.
you said it yourself you have a tight image and opening utg and shiped on by a player that the only hand you seen him play was AK its should be an easyfold on the + side you still have a resteal stack like dont think he s ever shoving AJ with your tight image so you either have like 27% equity against AK or your flipping 51% to 49% and not in your favour so i would try find another spot im sure if he was going to shove light he would of went for an easyer spot with the big stacks to his right and he has a resteal stack

Last edited by jazzyfish; 06-02-12 at 16:05.
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Old 06-02-12, 16:11   #6
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No way I'm shoving over a tight player without a hand. I think I'd take a flop and then shove if I was trying to steal the pot. Why would you shove over a tight player preflop when he has turned up with big hands when called?

I always go over the top of a tight player preflop when I have a premium hand because he normally calls whereas if he sees a flop and there is a card that scares him he can get away from it.
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Old 06-02-12, 16:20   #7
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edit: wrong thread.. jazzyfish sums it up for me.

Last edited by a-k-47; 06-02-12 at 16:40.
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Old 06-02-12, 16:49   #8
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I think i fold here almost always given the situation and description of opponents. With 3 other stacks similar to you, and some decent pay jumps i think we've a lot of play left rather than take what's going to be best case scenario a flip as an underdog. I can't see him doing this enough with AJ, KQ or any other hands we're ahead of to make it profitable. If ever a hand looked like AK, this would be it.

I don't he has AA/KK here because he knows that you'll fold almost your enitre range to the action, and if i'm in his spot i'd prefer to raise/call than shove. I'm getting it in against a bigger stack, but not against the shorter stack considering you opened UTG. We've still enough chips to do some damage and get our chips in first instead of calling it off for at best a race.
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Old 06-02-12, 16:55   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle eye View Post
No way I'm shoving over a tight player without a hand. I think I'd take a flop and then shove if I was trying to steal the pot. Why would you shove over a tight player preflop when he has turned up with big hands when called?

I always go over the top of a tight player preflop when I have a premium hand because he normally calls whereas if he sees a flop and there is a card that scares him he can get away from it.
AQ is a monster hand on a FT with 25bbs

Taking a flop against a player with 25bbs with the intention of stealing the pot on the flop is a bad idea seen as you will be facing a c bet most of the time. You will find yourself shoving with less fold equity with less equity if called than a shove pre.

The last part I bolded really is not profitable play and your thought process is flawed in theory.

Villain and Hero have the perfect stacks for the Villain to shove over hero. Puts hero in lots of difficult spots..hence the thread.

Last edited by Downtown; 06-02-12 at 17:00.
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Old 06-02-12, 17:02   #10
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Originally Posted by LTL View Post
Given the description above i'm not too sure I agree with this. Hero's image for utg opens playing 25bbs, you really think villain turns up with AJ, A10 , KQ enough of the time for it to be a call?

Given your image and description of villain I probably hate myself and fold. Think it's really close though.
If hes any good I would expect him to show up with those hands quite a bit.

It is close, I just call.

If you are going to open and fold to a 3 bet here then it doesnt matter if you have AQ.
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Old 06-02-12, 17:06   #11
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AQ is a monster hand on a FT with 25bbs
I opened the thread and was sure of the same reading it. Still though there are are other factors in it that make this a fold. I'm fairly sure ICM will say fold although this can be flawed I don't think it will be too off here. We open UTG, the SB is jamming on an tight players UTG open screams strength IMO. I reckon I fold here with all things considered but putting it in here could t be godawful could it? Interesting spot for sure.
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Old 06-02-12, 17:07   #12
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I call it off here

considering the position each player is in it is unlikely the SB is jamming with the complete airball. In saying that because he is in the SB it is difficult for him to flat with a decent % of his range and play the hand out of position - Im thinking pocket pairs and AJ+ so he will be jamming quite wide on you. Im not overly thrilled about it but I think you have to call it off here

Also nobody has mentioned that other players could pick up on Connie raise/folding a 25BB stack - not that it would be as big a deal as raise folding a 15bb stack but even still you dont want to be encouraging other players to play back at you more because you are percieved as weak
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Old 06-02-12, 17:14   #13
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Surely ,9 handed, from UTG you've a bit more to worry about than just the tightness of the BB?

Edit - read it arseways nvm
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Last edited by Dice75; 06-02-12 at 17:21.
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Old 06-02-12, 17:19   #14
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Surely ,9 handed, from UTG you've a bit more to worry about than just the tightness of the BB?
Not 100% sure what you mean, but it was the SB that shoved which should tighten his range a little more than if he was the BB
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Old 06-02-12, 17:20   #15
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Bunch of nits in here folding AQ to a 19 bb shove
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Old 06-02-12, 17:25   #16
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maybe this is why some of ye crowd make more money than me, but i move my chips forward 1mm and throw my cards on their backs with a big smile on my face, maybe even a victor cruz salsa dance.
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Old 06-02-12, 18:47   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BallymoreChris View Post
I played pretty much an identical hand with Derek Murry on the IPC FT 3 years ago, he was utg with your hand I was in the BB, he called.

Results below.

Spoiler
#


I normally play a lot of hands so people shove on me a lot lighter than they do on you, I call pretty much all the time with your hand, but prob fold if I am you (if you know what I mean)
Agree with Chris here. There's a number of important factors here: perceived image of both players and ICM. Connies image is crucial and means unless the villain is a clown or a maniac he won't be shoving many worse hands. The only one I can think of I might shove here over Connie is kqs and even then I might not. Aq is flipping against most of the range so the call is not horrible but all things considered I'm Pretty sure it's a fold. Connie is at the bottom of his perceived range so if the villain is taking a flyer with worse then good luck to him. ICM is a fairly big factor here because of how much of our stack it is and tips it further towards fold.

If Connie had a much looser image it'd be a call
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Old 06-02-12, 20:19   #18
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Agree with Chris here. There's a number of important factors here: perceived image of both players and ICM. Connies image is crucial and means unless the villain is a clown or a maniac he won't be shoving many worse hands. The only one I can think of I might shove here over Connie is kqs and even then I might not. Aq is flipping against most of the range so the call is not horrible but all things considered I'm Pretty sure it's a fold. Connie is at the bottom of his perceived range so if the villain is taking a flyer with worse then good luck to him. ICM is a fairly big factor here because of how much of our stack it is and tips it further towards fold.

If Connie had a much looser image it'd be a call
+1 villain never kqs here imo and worse aces very rarely, his range is AK & pairs a call=flipping almost always for me=fold (might still lean toward calling it off considering stacks )
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Old 06-02-12, 21:35   #19
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I fold her and move on.
I'm under the impression that connie is a reasonable tight player anyway, so if he has been gettign shite, then he's even tighter than usual. This image coupled with the fact the villain is tight also leads me to believe that we aren't too strong against his range. With are flipping occasionally, nut crushed often enough to make it -$EV. THe ICM aspect only compounds the fold.

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Also nobody has mentioned that other players could pick up on Connie raise/folding a 25BB stack - not that it would be as big a deal as raise folding a 15bb stack but even still you dont want to be encouraging other players to play back at you more because you are percieved as weak
That's quite a selective prediction. And, imo, way off.
Connie is playing tight, he isn't going to suddenly open up his range due to folding here. In future hands he'll be less likely to bet/fold the smaller stack, yet his range remains as strong. If other players were to start 3 betting lighter than normal, it would probably be a mistake on their behalf.
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Old 06-02-12, 21:41   #20
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Originally Posted by A_CitizenErased View Post
Hey Connie,

Was looking at this hand and found it very interesting. As Dara mentioned I think ICM plays a huge factor in this hand.

So we are playing 25bbs and have a tight image. Due to there being a 1000 ante, we have approx 20 effective big blinds. We raise UTG with A-Q and the Sb shoves....

Now seeing as this is the final table of the EMOP we are going to presume the villian understands ICM and Shoving ranges..

So I ran a few scenarios of this through ICM. I couldnt get an exact one as I dont know the other players exact chip stacks which would make a big difference, but fortunately all the scenarios I put in came out quite close.

The SB's calling range if you shoved would be KK+. So seeing as you put in a raise and you have 20 effective big blinds I calculated that his shoving range here is APPROXIMATELY:

7.1%, QQ+ ATs+ A5s-A4s AJo+ KQs KQo

Again, the A5s-A4s might make no sense if you are playing tight so it will always depend on villain but he can be shoving any out of the above.

Obviously we need to factor in your table tightness so he may only be shoving the premiums out of the above range but after running it a few times, I can see him shoving these hands. ^^
A_CE i know you're trying, but you be mad! Esp this bit

Quote:
The SB's calling range if you shoved would be KK+
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