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Old 15-12-11, 20:02   #1
Downtown
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How important is having Poker Tracker or HoldemManager

Would having software like this be considered necessary for any winning mtt player?

How much does it help the bottom line etc.
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Old 15-12-11, 20:07   #2
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I feel it is pretty important as having stats = having an edge over players.

It definitely benefits mult-table grinders more though.
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Old 15-12-11, 20:16   #3
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I've only been using it for a few months and its like 'I was blind now I can see'.
For multi tabling anything over 4 tables its vital unless you have Rainman type memory.
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Old 15-12-11, 20:28   #4
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I find HEM profoundly unuser friendly
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Old 15-12-11, 20:40   #5
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I find HEM profoundly unuser friendly
The more people that think this the better.
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Old 15-12-11, 20:44   #6
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for the sake of how little it costs its definitely a must especially when multitabling. ive been using he manager for about a year and don't play without it any more. you can base so many decisions usin it, really loose/tight players literally jump off the screen at you, their aggression stats really help you wit marginal spots etc.
there are ppl who've been very successful without it like blaaaaaaaa who likes to refer to himself as a 'purist'!
but I'd recommend everyone to use it, it can only help u.
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Old 15-12-11, 21:51   #7
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I play tournaments better without it. I stopped using it for cash as an experiment and lost my Db in a laptop change that I've never gone to the bother of restoring.

I don't have any very comprehensive explanation for it but a few bullet points:

You have either too big or too small a sample on players. Too small the problems are self evident, too large and the stats are often misleading because they are derived from hugely different stages of tournament play. For instance you pick up a good sample hands from someone but you have no way of knowing that they all came during bubble play then next time you meet them in the early levels, what use are those numbers now?
When you want more information opr and the likes will give you a better broad brush stroke picture than a ragbag of mtt hands.
Having a hud running seduces you into ignoring what's going on in front of you in favour of the numbers, its not just that you aren't paying enough attention to the table but you are not paying the right kind of attention.
Playing

If you are multitabling to the extent that you can't pay attention to the other players then there is a benefit to be had from switching to stats from the current session.
Beyond that unless someone can explain MTT specific ways of using it I feel I'm better off without it.
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Old 15-12-11, 22:53   #8
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For more than 4 tables I'd load up HM other than that...meh I'm happy enough.

But that's just me, I'd still recommend it for sure, pretty much agree with what Fiend & AlanMc said.
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Old 15-12-11, 22:57   #9
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download hem2 on a 60 day trial and find out for yourself, I find it useful when there is tough decisions to be made esp when multitabling
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Old 16-12-11, 00:40   #10
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Originally Posted by Strewelpeter View Post
I play tournaments better without it. I stopped using it for cash as an experiment and lost my Db in a laptop change that I've never gone to the bother of restoring.

I don't have any very comprehensive explanation for it but a few bullet points:

You have either too big or too small a sample on players. Too small the problems are self evident, too large and the stats are often misleading because they are derived from hugely different stages of tournament play. For instance you pick up a good sample hands from someone but you have no way of knowing that they all came during bubble play then next time you meet them in the early levels, what use are those numbers now?
When you want more information opr and the likes will give you a better broad brush stroke picture than a ragbag of mtt hands.
Having a hud running seduces you into ignoring what's going on in front of you in favour of the numbers, its not just that you aren't paying enough attention to the table but you are not paying the right kind of attention.
Playing

If you are multitabling to the extent that you can't pay attention to the other players then there is a benefit to be had from switching to stats from the current session.
Beyond that unless someone can explain MTT specific ways of using it I feel I'm better off without it.
Anyone you have alot hands on you should have there stats broken down by blind level etc, theres so much good stuff you can get out of it when your not playing.

I understand what your saying about opr but people get better or dont adjust to new concepts so these stats can b misleading aswel.
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Old 16-12-11, 00:54   #11
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I'm happy to be able to turn a computer on so have never used any of these things.

Never play more than 3/4 tables though & normally only play 2 tables.
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Old 16-12-11, 01:42   #12
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Certainly not a necessity but definatly an advantage. Edges are so slight and getting thinner all the time you gotta grab whatever you can.

Important thing about HEM is not just having the HUD on but also being able to interpret the data into the best aid to help you make the right decison.

Like Alan said can be a great help in marginal spots. Like if there's a borderline spot the stats will tip it for me everytime, thus saving the head from meltdown.

Different colouring for parameters help and also its great for me in turbos specially to have each players M on the hud, so i can tell at a glance instead of having to crunch the calculator
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Old 16-12-11, 09:27   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laois Hammer View Post
Anyone you have alot hands on you should have there stats broken down by blind level ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnitekowby View Post
...
to have each players M on the hud, so i can tell at a glance instead of having to crunch the calculator
OK these are both things I didn't know you could do. I'm fairly sure I tried to get both those things out before and failed.

I'll have a look at re installing in the new year and maybe I'll come back and ask ye some questions about setting it up correctly then.
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Old 16-12-11, 10:13   #14
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They're pretty vital to multitablers (meaning above 4: most people can track the important stuff by observation up to 4).

I always smile wryly when I hear people talking about HUDs as the devil's work, giving advantages to the "pros". Actually all it really does is remove some of the natural advantage the non-multitabling recreational players have over the multitabling pros. The more tables you play, the less your edge on any one table. Pros still multitable because it's better to make $1 an hour per table on 20 tables than $5 an hour on one. But when you take HUDs away, you reduce the number of tables they can play, which increases their edge over recreational players on every table they do play.

On sample size, in mtts small sample size is better than none. Even if you have only 20 hands on someone, it's a help to know if he's played 15 of those 20 hands, or none.
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Old 16-12-11, 10:23   #15
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Jude, BigMickG, Tom Finneran, Dara, Lappin, Jono Crute (just a few I know myself), etc all swear by it.

I'd like to see the list of online mtt winners that don't use it?
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Old 16-12-11, 10:24   #16
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sometimes I feel that at the lower buy-in levels they arent really that essential in terms of stats etc because for the vast majority of the time you will be making your decisions based on: 1. your hand, 2. your stack and 3. your opponents stack. Of course having stats will help you to decide when exactly you should shove. e.g. shove over an UTG open from a 52/39 monkey compared to a 4/3 nit with A7 etc.

I like poker skins that allow you to colour code the players - I find this a lot more useful in conjunction with notes of things I have seen him do or if hes a reg what hes seen me do. For example if a guy is coded red I know he is competant and so assign a competent shoving range - if hes green hes a monkey.

I will admit though I like what Laoishammer suggested with the stats broken down by blind level as the vast majority of good players could be 4/3 in the early levels and 30/25 when it gets shortstacked.

I dont think they are as essential as some would make out but they definitely are an advantage so meh why not
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Old 16-12-11, 10:46   #17
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Also, I like the idea of stats for different blinds levels but tbh find the HUD less important in the end game anyway. Once the stacks become shallow it's pretty much basic maths in most spots and stack sizes, position and hand are much more important than opponent tendencies. It can even be risky deviating from equilibrium strategy to try to exploit perceived villain tendencies as it leaves you open to being exploited (if villains adjust).
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Old 16-12-11, 11:13   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doke View Post
They're pretty vital to multitablers (meaning above 4: most people can track the important stuff by observation up to 4).

I always smile wryly when I hear people talking about HUDs as the devil's work, giving advantages to the "pros". Actually all it really does is remove some of the natural advantage the non-multitabling recreational players have over the multitabling pros. The more tables you play, the less your edge on any one table. Pros still multitable because it's better to make $1 an hour per table on 20 tables than $5 an hour on one. But when you take HUDs away, you reduce the number of tables they can play, which increases their edge over recreational players on every table they do play.

On sample size, in mtts small sample size is better than none. Even if you have only 20 hands on someone, it's a help to know if he's played 15 of those 20 hands, or none.
Dont think so, if "pro's" could not play loads of tables then they would have to play higher stakes, you would be an example of this I would think?

Quote:
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Also, I like the idea of stats for different blinds levels but tbh find the HUD less important in the end game anyway. Once the stacks become shallow it's pretty much basic maths in most spots and stack sizes, position and hand are much more important than opponent tendencies. It can even be risky deviating from equilibrium strategy to try to exploit perceived villain tendencies as it leaves you open to being exploited (if villains adjust).

I think so too, by the end of a tournament you'll notice whats going on with your own eyes. A player with a massive stack could be min raising every hand (for eg) and that would throw his stats way off. Also throws his stats off when you sit beside him at the early stages of a the next one. Notes on the players could help you there.
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Old 16-12-11, 11:50   #19
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Read all this and have come to the conclusion that PT/HEM are like....

Spoiler


I personally think they are move important the lower the stake u play, the higher the stake the better the villians are who are prob using this anyway and will understand how to react to how you precieve their play

In terms of tournies and filtering out per blind level is a good idea if you play a certain type usally MTTSNG's 45/90/180's where they are going to be a lot of reg's. This will allow you to build a good DB of player stats

With regard scheduled MTT's due to fields being so big it takes all time to build any decent amount of hands on players...

I still ise it if i'm playing any games at all usally just something to look at and mess around with when winding down a session, keeps me sane!
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Old 16-12-11, 14:05   #20
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Dont think so, if "pro's" could not play loads of tables then they would have to play higher stakes, you would be an example of this I would think?
That wouldn't work. The key to winning online long term is to play at the highest level where your edge comfortably exceeds the reg or rake, within the constraints of your bankroll and taking variance and size of edge into account. That translates in layman's terms to playing with enough recreational or weak players to translate into a big enough edge to have a decent hourly rate.

So if the ability to multitable profitably disappeared for whatever reason, professional players couldn't just "move up levels" unless the recreational players also decide to move up en masse. I already play at the highest levels I think are profitable, which means for the most part $30 to $300 buyins. I don't play, say, Super Tuesday on Stars because I don't think I have a big enough edge to overcome the rake (I think very few players genuinely have), even though I could do so. At best, I might be able to beat it 5% long term, which still wouldn't make it worth playing as it means I'm only making 50 bucks on average every time I play it (and it's not a turbo!). Much better to play, say a $100 game where I have a long term ROI of 80%, or a 3x where my long term win rate is $80 a game and it takes just over 2 hours.

All that would happen if I was forced to play, say, 4 tables is my edge in the games I did play would increase a bit, but my overall hourly rate would decrease. I made a decent enough living for a couple of years just playing 4 tables and probably could do so again, but the worst thing I could do if that was forced on me is to just play the biggest games where nobody has much of an edge because there's not as much value.
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