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Old 14-04-12, 00:24   #81
robin
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i haven't played against the villain and maybe he is so aggressive that 4b/calling is fine here but one factor i don't think people are paying enough attention to is that a very good reason to frequently 3bet people's loose HJ/CO opening ranges is so that people will be happy automatically getting stuff like AK in vs you for 40+bbs regardless of the situation, and a good player will be aware of that fact and actively seeking to take advantage of it.
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Old 14-04-12, 07:36   #82
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Not this situation in particular but can we ever 4 bet fold hands like this in a situation where we crush our opponents 3 bet range but dont do too well against his 5 bet range? Never do it myself but have seen good winning players click it back here online and then fold. How deep would we have to be etc??
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Old 14-04-12, 09:23   #83
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Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
Not this situation in particular but can we ever 4 bet fold hands like this in a situation where we crush our opponents 3 bet range but dont do too well against his 5 bet range? Never do it myself but have seen good winning players click it back here online and then fold. How deep would we have to be etc??
I did it in the EMOP last year, 4 bet folded 15% of my stack oop with AK vs a hugely competant TAG shove & got lambasted in the live update thread.

Was player dependant & would do it again in the right circumstances.
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Old 14-04-12, 09:52   #84
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Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
Not this situation in particular but can we ever 4 bet fold hands like this in a situation where we crush our opponents 3 bet range but dont do too well against his 5 bet range? Never do it myself but have seen good winning players click it back here online and then fold. How deep would we have to be etc??
I assume they would be clicking it back with the airball and then folding?

balanced of course because they click back their entire 4 betting range
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Old 14-04-12, 11:16   #85
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Can Sean ever flat a 4b here..say 12.2k..? If he does what's our play on missed flops....?
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Old 14-04-12, 11:59   #86
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Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
Not this situation in particular but can we ever 4 bet fold hands like this in a situation where we crush our opponents 3 bet range but dont do too well against his 5 bet range? Never do it myself but have seen good winning players click it back here online and then fold. How deep would we have to be etc??
Think if we're 4 bet folding, we shouldn't be 4 betting at all then. Wouldn't it mean we're effectively bluffing with AK in that case?
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Old 14-04-12, 12:28   #87
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Think if we're 4 bet folding, we shouldn't be 4 betting at all then. Wouldn't it mean we're effectively bluffing with AK in that case?
Not totally bluffing due to the chance of him flatting the 4 bet. It doesn't really matter if its a bluff or for value, only that its profitable.
Downtown's point is essentially right in theory. If somebody is 3betting very light but only committing to a 5bet with the top of their range (say 10% of the 3bet range) then 4bet folding will be profitable. The problem is identifying these spots, if they exist at all.
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Old 14-04-12, 12:44   #88
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Not totally bluffing due to the chance of him flatting the 4 bet. It doesn't really matter if its a bluff or for value, only that its profitable.
Downtown's point is essentially right in theory. If somebody is 3betting very light but only committing to a 5bet with the top of their range (say 10% of the 3bet range) then 4bet folding will be profitable. The problem is identifying these spots, if they exist at all.
IMO 4 bet folding is the absolute worst of all our options. Three things can happen. We commit about 25% of our stack to either 1) fold AK to his shove 2) Get him to fold a garbage hand, or 3) Get called and have to play AK OOP to a very dangerous player.
I think folding to his 3 bet is pretty awful, but would rather that than 4 bet folding.
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Old 14-04-12, 12:47   #89
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Can Sean ever flat a 4b here..say 12.2k..? If he does what's our play on missed flops....?
continue to rep the nuts, betting flop and turn prob
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Old 14-04-12, 12:56   #90
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IMO 4 bet folding is the absolute worst of all our options. Three things can happen. We commit about 25% of our stack to either 1) fold AK to his shove 2) Get him to fold a garbage hand, or 3) Get called and have to play AK OOP to a very dangerous player.
I think folding to his 3 bet is pretty awful, but would rather that than 4 bet folding.
I can't remember ever 4 bet folding ak, if I'm 4 betting it I'm going with it. if a nit 3 bets me and the stacks are deep ill flat, even if a lag 3 bets me and were very deep ill still flat with it. I'm only 4 betting it in a spot where I'm comfortable calling off due to either the stacks being short or if I've history with the player and know he's likely to put in way worse than ak.
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Old 15-04-12, 12:04   #91
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I'm definitely in the 4b/call camp with history vs this villain. It's obviously not a fist pump but of our three options it is almost definitely the best.

Folding to preserve stack/edge is flawed logic since villain is going to be on your direct left for the duration and will never make it easy for you to isoalte bad players or steal in future hands, so there is no guarantee of being able to find better low variance spots to chip up.

Calling is better, but we will almost never win the pot when we miss, and the times we hit we have to be able to win a big enough pot to compensate for the times we just burn off our 5k. Assuming villain barrels off a decent amount we can probably make up for it, but on certain textures/runouts villain may still force a fold from us on later streets after we've hit so it's not that straight-forward.

Sure, when we 4b/c his 5b range is gonna be super tight but we get a ton of folds, and the times it does go in the only hand we're in terrible shape against is AA of which there are far fewer combos than AK/QQ/JJ so it's just a meh spot.

Questioning our line after the fact is pointless because Seans game is tailored to induce this kind of action the times he has a hand, all hero can do is adjust his play-back ranges accordingly to avoid being steamrolled.
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Old 15-04-12, 23:54   #92
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Originally Posted by KK82 View Post
IMO 4 bet folding is the absolute worst of all our options. Three things can happen. We commit about 25% of our stack to either 1) fold AK to his shove 2) Get him to fold a garbage hand, or 3) Get called and have to play AK OOP to a very dangerous player.
I think folding to his 3 bet is pretty awful, but would rather that than 4 bet folding.
I actually went to the trouble of bolding the word IF in the last post to make it clear it was a general comment and not a coment of Seans range here. I even said "if they exist at all" to be clear it wasn't about this hand.
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Old 16-04-12, 09:01   #93
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I actually went to the trouble of bolding the word IF in the last post to make it clear it was a general comment and not a coment of Seans range here. I even said "if they exist at all" to be clear it wasn't about this hand.
My point still stands. Don't think 4 bet folding is ever a good play with a hand as strong as AK. If you're even considering not going with it pre, then just flatting is a much better option.
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Old 16-04-12, 09:21   #94
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My point still stands. Don't think 4 bet folding is ever a good play with a hand as strong as AK. If you're even considering not going with it pre, then just flatting is a much better option.
I often think that whilst playing, but against someone with such a strong range (so not the player in this hand) that you aren't happy getting it all in pre against I think just folding might be better. If someone's range is like AA, KK, AK, QQ, they aren't going to lose many chips to you when you are ahead, and it's really hard to fold on a K or A high board.
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Old 16-04-12, 09:31   #95
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Originally Posted by Dice75 View Post
I did it in the EMOP last year, 4 bet folded 15% of my stack oop with AK vs a hugely competant TAG shove & got lambasted in the live update thread.

Was player dependant & would do it again in the right circumstances.
If you showed you were rightly lambasted for that part, the rest is fine
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Old 16-04-12, 11:33   #96
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My point still stands. Don't think 4 bet folding is ever a good play with a hand as strong as AK. If you're even considering not going with it pre, then just flatting is a much better option.
Your still missing my point I think. All I'm saying is that if somebody has a massive difference between their 3bet and 5bet range then 4bet/fold is profitable. That's all. The reason why is pretty simple.
I'm not advising it here and I didn't say it was a better option than simply calling the 3 bet either. I didnt compare it to any option.
I was just saying that it can be profitable as a counter point to "you can't ever 4bet fold".
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