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    Whats the best line here

    15c 30c

    150bbs deep

    I raise TT utg. Tight reg 3bets me from cutoff. Very little 3betting going on, he definitely has a good hand here

    Flop is T8Jr. I check, he bets, I raise and he calls.

    Turn is the worst card in the deck, - Ace. I have 31 left and there's 28 in the pot. Whats the best line?

    Comment


      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
      Whats the best line here

      15c 30c

      150bbs deep

      I raise TT utg. Tight reg 3bets me from cutoff. Very little 3betting going on, he definitely has a good hand here

      Flop is T8Jr. I check, he bets, I raise and he calls.

      Turn is the worst card in the deck, - Ace. I have 31 left and there's 28 in the pot. Whats the best line?
      Don't mean to be funny, but why?

      Comment


        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
        Whats the best line here

        15c 30c

        150bbs deep

        I raise TT utg. Tight reg 3bets me from cutoff. Very little 3betting going on, he definitely has a good hand here

        Flop is T8Jr. I check, he bets, I raise and he calls.

        Turn is the worst card in the deck, - Ace. I have 31 left and there's 28 in the pot. Whats the best line?
        No scenario where a fold is good with so much in the middle, b/c is fine I like check shove

        Comment


          Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
          Don't mean to be funny, but why?
          His likely hands are:

          AA - Now beats me
          KK - Folds to shove
          QQ - Folds to shove

          His somewhat unlikely hands are

          KQ - Beats me
          AJ - will prob get it in
          JJ - Beats me

          The ace is terrible because its really good for my perceived range - so hands like KK, QQ etc all fold, and is good for his actual range.

          A queen seems bad but is actually ok, its very hard for him to have a straight bar QQ

          King is slightly better than an ace because KQ is much more likely than AQ

          Comment


            Originally posted by brady23 View Post
            No scenario where a fold is good with so much in the middle, b/c is fine I like check shove
            Why do you like check shove? I think its my least favourite line. I agree that folding seems bad, although I'm not sure.

            Comment


              Chk call twice seems like best to me, agree its worst card in deck if he is that tight.
              Hopefully he goes for some thin value or some bluffy line, cant see much value in a c/r

              Comment


                I really hate c/c here after c/r flop,seems pretty weak imo,i would probly just bet get it in ott,if he has AA or KQ well nice hand..

                if you have a good a read/stats on him and u know hes never gna shove the turn as a bluff you could even b/f the turn aswell but 90%of the time i think i just bet get it in,

                Im a sng/mttplayer so i might be way off here
                Last edited by shanno66; 28-04-13, 09:51.
                “The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent.”

                Comment


                  what does weak mean? Any why is it bad?

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                    what does weak mean? Any why is it bad?
                    By weak i mean it looks like youre afraid of the A (which your are of course).

                    Im not saying its bad, i just think it leaves us exposed to being bluffed out of the pot alot,obv thats not really the case here with your hand being so strong but i think i like betting the turn because worse hands can still call that might check back the turn and like i said if you think he never bluff shoves the turn is b/f terrible ?

                    btw HJ really like your strat posts in general

                    like i said im a micro stake sng/mtt player so im probly way off,
                    “The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent.”

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post


                      Why do you like check shove? I think its my least favourite line. I agree that folding seems bad, although I'm not sure.
                      I just think that the turn will hit some of his range that may fold if u c/r flop and then fire 2 streets, a hand like AK, AQ, AJ may be able to find a hero fold on river.
                      I would be thinking that if u check turn he bets like 12-15$ be can't lay down much of his range that he bet/calls, flop and fires turn with.
                      I know that Ace can have you crushed/kill your action but if you check and he bets, I can't see many bluffs in his range, would imagine KK and QQ goes for showdown.

                      I could be wrong and he b/f turn but I doubt it.

                      Comment


                        How do people feel about donking small to maybe induce a shove/get value?But you said he's tight so probably not the best to get bluff shoves/semi bluff shoves. Like say 5.00-6.50. Think that's gets KK/QQ to peel also which is obviously great for us. Can't see much of his toght range folding. Looks really goofy and allows us to shove river and maybe get him to level himself a bit.
                        Last edited by peterswellman; 28-04-13, 11:58.

                        Comment


                          Thanks for the replies.

                          As played we both checked and I bet very small on the river, 7 or so, he tank called with KK

                          Comment


                            50 FO on Monday night. Down to 5 players and payouts are roughly as follows:

                            €900, €605, €460, €340, €220

                            Blinds 5k/10k I think. Deal being discussed to chop the tourn evenly between the remaining players for €508 each which seems to be acceptable to everyone, but hand in progress has to be played out.

                            I'm UTG with JJ, and min open playing 190k. Folded to Dice in bb who ships for 170k. 2 players at the table playing c. 200k and other player playing only 80k.

                            So fold and take the €508 on offer for the even chop or call and play on? I think that covers it

                            Comment


                              As the BB appears to be some sort of very handsome superstar, I fold as played.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by ghostface View Post
                                50 FO on Monday night. Down to 5 players and payouts are roughly as follows:

                                €900, €605, €460, €340, €220

                                Blinds 5k/10k I think. Deal being discussed to chop the tourn evenly between the remaining players for €508 each which seems to be acceptable to everyone, but hand in progress has to be played out.

                                I'm UTG with JJ, and min open playing 190k. Folded to Dice in bb who ships for 170k. 2 players at the table playing c. 200k and other player playing only 80k.

                                So fold and take the €508 on offer for the even chop or call and play on? I think that covers it
                                Villain doesn't have the balls to man up and say he doesn't want to do the deal

                                I never fold and I always lose the race
                                Turning millions into thousands

                                Comment


                                  Before you make your decision, agree with Dice to take the €508 each so there's €1016 between the 2 of you. Take €308 each and then run the hand twice for 2 pots of €200

                                  Comment


                                    Is there a rough guide to the number of MTTs you need to play to get a rough guide of your roi? Say +- 5%, nothing too exact?

                                    I am a consistent winner on iPoker over ~520 tournaments and a big loser on Stars over ~350. Are these samples too small to draw any inference or would it be fair to say based on that sample that I obv have leaks which are being exploited on Stars?

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by mcnugget View Post
                                      Is there a rough guide to the number of MTTs you need to play to get a rough guide of your roi? Say +- 5%, nothing too exact?

                                      I am a consistent winner on iPoker over ~520 tournaments and a big loser on Stars over ~350. Are these samples too small to draw any inference or would it be fair to say based on that sample that I obv have leaks which are being exploited on Stars?
                                      Your ipoker numbers will give you a greater idea of where you are at due to smaller numbers. The variance on stars especially at lower levels is huge because of field size. Good players who are more than +ev can have even losing years. Personally I now aim for 500mtts on stars a month without sats etc.
                                      I would say regular speed mtts on ipoker over a sample of about 1000 mtts would give a good estimate

                                      Comment


                                        OOPs tried to show diff examples there done it wrong
                                        Attached Files
                                        Last edited by jazzyfish; 29-05-13, 13:38.

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by mcnugget View Post
                                          Is there a rough guide to the number of MTTs you need to play to get a rough guide of your roi? Say +- 5%, nothing too exact?

                                          I am a consistent winner on iPoker over ~520 tournaments and a big loser on Stars over ~350. Are these samples too small to draw any inference or would it be fair to say based on that sample that I obv have leaks which are being exploited on Stars?
                                          Sample size on stars needs to really large to get a good gauge.. I'm b/e over my last 2k games and I know a very good player whos never been +$ over a 2.5k sample.

                                          1-2k games in relatively small fields on other sites should provide a decent estimate though.
                                          "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                                          Comment


                                            Lots of Mistakes here by me I think........

                                            €250 Game
                                            Blinds 150/300/25

                                            Folded to me on the button (13.5k) with 88
                                            I make it 700.
                                            Both blinds call.

                                            Flop 842
                                            Checked & I c-bet 675 (meant to be 1175 but didn't give off a reaction) & BB (14k) calls.
                                            No history, only played 30 mins at table. His preflop call screamed of priced in.

                                            Turn 9

                                            He leads for 1675.

                                            Me?

                                            Comment


                                              Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                              Lots of Mistakes here by me I think........

                                              €250 Game
                                              Blinds 150/300/25

                                              Folded to me on the button (13.5k) with 88
                                              I make it 700.
                                              Both blinds call.

                                              Flop 842
                                              Checked & I c-bet 675 (meant to be 1175 but didn't give off a reaction) & BB (14k) calls.
                                              No history, only played 30 mins at table. His preflop call screamed of priced in.

                                              Turn 9

                                              He leads for 1675.

                                              Me?
                                              Raise to 4100-4200 and call or shove any river.

                                              Comment


                                                Cbet isn't bad dice by any means, no harm betting small there, board is dry and can induce some action. As played I just flat turn, you fold out all his bluffs by raising. Flat and reevaluate river!

                                                Comment


                                                  Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                                                  Cbet isn't bad dice by any means, no harm betting small there, board is dry and can induce some action. As played I just flat turn, you fold out all his bluffs by raising. Flat and reevaluate river!
                                                  Its like I'm reading a different hand. I wouldn't consider this a dry flop, straight+flushdraws on. It's multi way so not mad about the idea of inducing, I just don't think it works as often as you want it to. Prob betting about 1.3-1.6k. Also don't live folk have a tendency not to fold pairs or draws or any kind of rubbish regardless of position or bet sizing?

                                                  And as played probably slightly less than what SICKPUPPY said on the turn, but def raising. The amount isn't really important because we will always have enough to shove the river.

                                                  Comment


                                                    Originally posted by Caf View Post
                                                    Its like I'm reading a different hand. I wouldn't consider this a dry flop, straight+flushdraws on. It's multi way so not mad about the idea of inducing, I just don't think it works as often as you want it to. Prob betting about 1.3-1.6k. Also don't live folk have a tendency not to fold pairs or draws or any kind of rubbish regardless of position or bet sizing?

                                                    And as played probably slightly less than what SICKPUPPY said on the turn, but def raising. The amount isn't really important because we will always have enough to shove the river.
                                                    Well only bb calls so it's head up now, I think raising turn will fold out all his air or weaker pairs. Can defo have a 9 after calling 2 overs etc.
                                                    By flatting we disguise our hand imo. The flop isn't too wet imo and after only getting flatted on the flop and a turn lead, what hand does he stack off with if we raise?? I think flat and reevaluate river, our hand range is uncapped and we can get heroed on river and/or let him barrel off.

                                                    I wouldn't say I bet that size on flop but dnt think it's terrible, however if you bet flop that size and raise turn, it looks ridiculously strong

                                                    Btw I see the point in raising trying to build a pot etc maybe a raise is better but I would just flat, dnt wanna give him the chance to fold out
                                                    Last edited by Guest; 12-06-13, 22:45.

                                                    Comment


                                                      Originally posted by Caf View Post
                                                      Its like I'm reading a different hand. I wouldn't consider this a dry flop, straight+flushdraws on. It's multi way so not mad about the idea of inducing, I just don't think it works as often as you want it to. Prob betting about 1.3-1.6k. Also don't live folk have a tendency not to fold pairs or draws or any kind of rubbish regardless of position or bet sizing?

                                                      And as played probably slightly less than what SICKPUPPY said on the turn, but def raising. The amount isn't really important because we will always have enough to shove the river.
                                                      If he is fishy he will not fold a 9 or any draw to a small raise.
                                                      Thats why i think flatting is poor nothing wrong with getting chips in with the nuts.

                                                      I know the result of the hand asked dice so maybe now my comments might become biased.

                                                      Comment


                                                        Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                                                        Well only bb calls so it's head up now, I think raising turn will fold out all his air or weaker pairs. Can defo have a 9 after calling 2 overs etc.
                                                        By flatting we disguise our hand imo. The flop isn't too wet imo and after only getting flatted on the flop and a turn lead, what hand does he stack off with if we raise?? I think flat and reevaluate river, our hand range is uncapped and we can get heroed on river and/or let him barrel off.

                                                        Btw I see the point in raising trying to build a pot etc maybe a raise is better but I would just flat, dnt wanna give him the chance to fold out
                                                        It was multi way on the flop though, that's where you were saying to induce. Even on a dry flop I wouldn't be cbetting 1/4 pot.

                                                        I think there's plenty of value to be gotten by raising the turn and let villain call and reevaluate all the while building the pot to play for stacks. I would consider it a better point in the hand
                                                        to try and induce than the flop too btw.

                                                        Comment


                                                          This posting from the phone is way too slow to keep up with your edits Brady! I only saw one paragraph when I quoted your post!

                                                          Comment


                                                            That is the opposite of a dry flop, especially live.

                                                            I think against a random live player flat calling the turn is bad.

                                                            Flat calling the turn is bad for many reasons. First of all live players will call a raise on the turn with a single pair. Your line will look strong to them, and they will fold to the river bet, but you still get more chips from raising (and charge them more to draw) than just calling. Live players never fold to a single raise. The problem with just calling is that half the deck turn your hand into not much more than a bluff catcher.

                                                            If a diamond falls on the river it is going to be hard to extricate much value, and any QJT7653 or ACE make a possible straight. Good luck dodging those outs. If any of them happen to hit your hand looks exactly like a hand that bet scaredly small on the flop as a cheap bluff, called on the turn as you picked up outs, and made your hand on the river. So you will be representing a stronger hand than you have.

                                                            The only advantage to flat calling the turn is that against some decent/weaktight players they will just fold weak/medium strength hands to you, and you discourage him from bluffing on the river. There are plenty of other hands in your range that you can use to bluff catch the river with, not the effective nuts. This is the type of hand that separates good tight players from bad tight players. The good ones stack players, the bad ones slow player it to the river, min raise; and end up getting curiosity calls.

                                                            Comment


                                                              Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                              That is the opposite of a dry flop, especially live.

                                                              I think against a random live player flat calling the turn is bad.

                                                              Flat calling the turn is bad for many reasons. First of all live players will call a raise on the turn with a single pair. Your line will look strong to them, and they will fold to the river bet, but you still get more chips from raising (and charge them more to draw) than just calling. Live players never fold to a single raise. The problem with just calling is that half the deck turn your hand into not much more than a bluff catcher.

                                                              If a diamond falls on the river it is going to be hard to extricate much value, and any QJT7653 or ACE make a possible straight. Good luck dodging those outs. If any of them happen to hit your hand looks exactly like a hand that bet scaredly small on the flop as a cheap bluff, called on the turn as you picked up outs, and made your hand on the river. So you will be representing a stronger hand than you have.

                                                              The only advantage to flat calling the turn is that against some decent/weaktight players they will just fold weak/medium strength hands to you, and you discourage him from bluffing on the river. There are plenty of other hands in your range that you can use to bluff catch the river with, not the effective nuts. This is the type of hand that separates good tight players from bad tight players. The good ones stack players, the bad ones slow player it to the river, min raise; and end up getting curiosity calls.
                                                              I can totally understand the value in the raise as far as building a pot and also when you say the flop is not as dry live as it would be online etc, however I don't think the board is that wet 842 with a fd. Turn will obv be good for some hands he flats with 56, 76 but shouldn't change too much imo. Can obv have a hand like j10 but equally way more combos which contain a 9 that we crush, so let him barrel imo. If he's poor he prob won't fold a 9 if we raise but he won't stack either.
                                                              I do think raising turn is a strong line after mistakenly betting so little on the flop. I'm assuming after paying 250e into a game that they're not totally horrendous also. I just think raising the turn vs anyone semi competent looks extremely transparent and can never see us with a bluff range here ever. I just think flatting widens our range.
                                                              I would agree that perhaps I am overthinking the hand and maybe a raise on the turn will get called by much worse and we'll get value.
                                                              I would disagree that this is what separates bad and good players tbh. I would actually think quite the opposite often, that bad players would raise big on the turn and lose value here as they will often fold out so many bluffs/hands they crush.

                                                              I'm by no means saying raising is bad and in a lot of spots, I would raise, however I think flatting after mistakenly betting so small is better as we never have a bluff range if we raise so looks extremely nutted.

                                                              Comment


                                                                Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                                                                Can obv have a hand like j10 but equally way more combos which contain a 9 that we crush, so let him barrel imo. If he's poor he prob won't fold a 9 if we raise but he won't stack either.
                                                                *Why are hands like JT or a 9 so obvious or likely? Are we assuming he's going to just float oop with random overs and donk turn if he hits one? I'd be thinking his range is more likely to be along the lines of a non-nut fd(which may contain a 9 but would probably not donk turn if it did conatin 9d) , a lot of flopped gutshots A3,A5,56,57,67 maybe 36s and for value maybe 22 or 44 that didn't raise the flop but i'd say they are more unlikely combo wise and line-he-took-wise. Also there may be some small % of the time he doesn't squeeze with TT+ pre but versus a random player this has to be a pretty small % given button raise/sb flat and villain in BB.

                                                                *disclaimer - haven't played much poker in 2013

                                                                Comment


                                                                  would anyone ever bluff raise this turn?

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    Originally posted by BobSloane View Post
                                                                    *Why are hands like JT or a 9 so obvious or likely? Are we assuming he's going to just float oop with random overs and donk turn if he hits one? I'd be thinking his range is more likely to be along the lines of a non-nut fd(which may contain a 9 but would probably not donk turn if it did conatin 9d) , a lot of flopped gutshots A3,A5,56,57,67 maybe 36s and for value maybe 22 or 44 that didn't raise the flop but i'd say they are more unlikely combo wise and line-he-took-wise. Also there may be some small % of the time he doesn't squeeze with TT+ pre but versus a random player this has to be a pretty small % given button raise/sb flat and villain in BB.

                                                                    *disclaimer - haven't played much poker in 2013
                                                                    I don't think they are obvious hands at all, but given bet sizing I wouldn't be surprised to see him show up with any 2 overs, if he felt blinking a pair puts him in front. Equally if he does feel that, he could defo lead turn with a 9 or J10 is all, as it is quite disguised. Equally if he flats with a gutter, he could donk the turn with the dbl gutter on a semi bluff. Just an idea.

                                                                    Just to say to DC, I don't believe anyone raises turn on a bluff tbh, maybe a semi bluff jd10d type hand but I'm not sure cos you might get it jammed in your eye in some spots.
                                                                    it's my whole point, raising the turn in this specific spot is never a bluff and always super nutted.
                                                                    Last edited by Guest; 13-06-13, 08:02.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      Ok, as I mentioned in OP - Lots of mistakes by me in this hand.

                                                                      His turn lead on the 9 (going from passive check calling to leading) threw me a bit.

                                                                      I have about half a dozen hands in my head and elect to flat in position.

                                                                      River is 10

                                                                      He leads for 5k (from the 11k we are both playing)

                                                                      Me?

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                                        Ok, as I mentioned in OP - Lots of mistakes by me in this hand.

                                                                        His turn lead on the 9 (going from passive check calling to leading) threw me a bit.

                                                                        I have about half a dozen hands in my head and elect to flat in position.

                                                                        River is 10

                                                                        He leads for 5k (from the 11k we are both playing)

                                                                        Me?
                                                                        Only behind to two possible combos and don't see him leading turn with QJ unless it's dd I guess, seems like a call

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                                          would anyone ever bluff raise this turn?
                                                                          No, because you nearly always get called.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            I would never ever ever bluff raise the turn unless I was ready to kamikaze the fook out of the river. Even then it would be pure, unadultered punting playing live.

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                                              Ok, as I mentioned in OP - Lots of mistakes by me in this hand.

                                                                              His turn lead on the 9 (going from passive check calling to leading) threw me a bit.

                                                                              I have about half a dozen hands in my head and elect to flat in position.

                                                                              River is 10

                                                                              He leads for 5k (from the 11k we are both playing)

                                                                              Me?
                                                                              I'd move in I think

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                                                Ok, as I mentioned in OP - Lots of mistakes by me in this hand.

                                                                                His turn lead on the 9 (going from passive check calling to leading) threw me a bit.

                                                                                I have about half a dozen hands in my head and elect to flat in position.

                                                                                River is 10

                                                                                He leads for 5k (from the 11k we are both playing)

                                                                                Me?
                                                                                I jam because I'd always rather be going home than having to look at the smarmy cnut when he turns over whatever it was he had (JQo or probably more likely the thin end of it ) that got there for another 20 minutes

                                                                                Also there is a very remote possibility he folds a set of 9's to a shove
                                                                                Turning millions into thousands

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  Easy all in I would have thought. You look weak and his range is pretty wide.

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    Villain a JP reg?

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      Originally posted by ghostface View Post
                                                                                      Villain a JP reg?
                                                                                      No, guy I recognise but dont know. Looks like Willie Mullins.

                                                                                      Prob plays in the Fitz or SE maybe.

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        Originally posted by Caf View Post
                                                                                        It was multi way on the flop though, that's where you were saying to induce. Even on a dry flop I wouldn't be cbetting 1/4 pot.

                                                                                        I think there's plenty of value to be gotten by raising the turn and let villain call and reevaluate all the while building the pot to play for stacks. I would consider it a better point in the hand
                                                                                        to try and induce than the flop too btw.
                                                                                        How many players are bad enough to call a turn raise and c/f the river? Or call a turn raise raise and call a river shove with worse against a guy that raises pre, bets flop, raises the turn and jams the river?

                                                                                        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                        That is the opposite of a dry flop, especially live.

                                                                                        I think against a random live player flat calling the turn is bad.

                                                                                        ....First of all live players will call a raise on the turn with a single pair. Your line will look strong to them, and they will fold to the river bet, but you still get more chips from raising (and charge them more to draw) than just calling. Live players never fold to a single raise. The problem with just calling is that half the deck turn your hand into not much more than a bluff catcher.

                                                                                        If a diamond falls on the river it is going to be hard to extricate much value, and any QJT7653 or ACE make a possible straight. Good luck dodging those outs. If any of them happen to hit your hand looks exactly like a hand that bet scaredly small on the flop as a cheap bluff, called on the turn as you picked up outs, and made your hand on the river. So you will be representing a stronger hand than you have.

                                                                                        This is the type of hand that separates good tight players from bad tight players. The good ones stack players, the bad ones slow player it to the river, min raise; and end up getting curiosity calls.
                                                                                        That's some really strange generalising imo. Dice hasn't mentioned anything about the guy in the BB. He could be tight, could be a fish, could be flairy, could be a big winner, could be a JP regular having a few pints. What's a 'live player'? Dice is playing live and there's probably 2 dozen players there that know how to play the game and would have some idea so we can't call everyone a live player and presume they are terrible and going to stack off 45 bigs or whatever with 1 pair or a much worse hand.

                                                                                        Would be interesting to hear peoples comments if this hand was put up as a reverso from the BB's POV and how our hand would look if Dice raised the turn against us.

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                          No, because you nearly always get called.
                                                                                          easy raise then no?

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                                                            would anyone ever bluff raise this turn?
                                                                                            No, but you don't have to worry about that going through the mind of live unknown. Def raise the turn. Think of a raise you might be able to get away with and make it bigger. People always limit themselves into how they would think about it. Most of the time he won't be able to see passed his cards.

                                                                                            River looks like QdJd,7d6d,T9s,98s,T9o,98o all day. Stove has us 86% fav. Jam your socks off.
                                                                                            It's all an illusion

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              Actually that's not right on river. More like QdJd,Td9d,98s,7d6d,T8o,98o 77.7% fav. Giving that range because the donk on turn looks to have picked up equity and the river made.

                                                                                              edit: changed range again. I'm confusing myself now
                                                                                              Last edited by 72over; 13-06-13, 13:47.
                                                                                              It's all an illusion

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                                                                                How many players are bad enough to call a turn raise and c/f the river? Or call a turn raise raise and call a river shove with worse against a guy that raises pre, bets flop, raises the turn and jams the river?
                                                                                                Most live players will do exactly that. I don't think you get looked up on the river by one pair that much, but 2 pair + prob never folds no matter. Live players never fold to the first raise.

                                                                                                Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                                                                                That's some really strange generalising imo. Dice hasn't mentioned anything about the guy in the BB. He could be tight, could be a fish, could be flairy, could be a big winner, could be a JP regular having a few pints. What's a 'live player'? Dice is playing live and there's probably 2 dozen players there that know how to play the game and would have some idea so we can't call everyone a live player and presume they are terrible and going to stack off 45 bigs or whatever with 1 pair or a much worse hand.

                                                                                                Would be interesting to hear peoples comments if this hand was put up as a reverso from the BB's POV and how our hand would look if Dice raised the turn against us.
                                                                                                He didn't give a description as to the player, so we are all assuming he is a standard live player. Which means he is probably pretty bad, and will do all of the things I have stated he is likely to do. A reverso would be meaningless as the standard of people posting here is much higher than that of a random live player.

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                                                                                                  Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                                                                  easy raise then no?
                                                                                                  Yes

                                                                                                  If the player is bad then a raise is far superior.

                                                                                                  If the player is ok then a raise is superior.

                                                                                                  If the player is good, very good or very tight then its close.

                                                                                                  Its live so the last option is about a one in fifty shot.

                                                                                                  As sick puppy almost said - 4k, jam most rivers.

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                                                                                                    Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                                                                    No, guy I recognise but dont know. Looks like Willie Mullins.

                                                                                                    Prob plays in the Fitz or SE maybe.
                                                                                                    Ha! SE Reg IMO
                                                                                                    Turning millions into thousands

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                                                                                                      Wrap it up from Villians POV.

                                                                                                      In the BB at 150/300/25 level & buttons raises to 700, SB calls so I complete with 67o
                                                                                                      (after we call, button makes a joking remark about the two stubborn old blinds)

                                                                                                      Flop is 842 with two diamonds, checked to button who bets a small 675 so I call.

                                                                                                      Turn is a 9, giving me open-ender so I lead for 1675.

                                                                                                      Button takes maybe 30secs & calls.

                                                                                                      10 on the river, giving me thin end of the straight, I bet half my stack & button ships.

                                                                                                      I mutter & call.

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                                                                                                        You dog!

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                                                                                                          Would you have called a raise to 4k?

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                                                                                                            Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                                            Would you have called a raise to 4k?
                                                                                                            To clarify, I was the button with the flopped set.

                                                                                                            Knowing his hand my gut feeling is he would have called a raise on the turn to see if he caught.

                                                                                                            From my POV I can't shove turn so I don't think i can affect the outcome any more once I've made my mistake with the wrong flop bet which kept him interested.

                                                                                                            Its a case of one small early mistake in the hand costing me a lot because I didnt re-evaluate 100% and really couldnt put him on his hand. I guess I should have considered 6d7d as a possibility.
                                                                                                            Last edited by Dice75; 13-06-13, 18:15.

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                                                                                                              What's the rules about showing when all in pre in a live cash game? I always thought there was no obligation to show, one guy insisted that he had the right to see, while the dealer said that whoever was called had to show?

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                                                                                                                Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                                                                                What's the rules about showing when all in pre in a live cash game? I always thought there was no obligation to show, one guy insisted that he had the right to see, while the dealer said that whoever was called had to show?
                                                                                                                No obligation any time I've played anywhere. Whoever's called has to show first (or muck) after river if they want to claim the pot if both are reluctant to turn them over.

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                                                                                                                  Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                                                                                  What's the rules about showing when all in pre in a live cash game? I always thought there was no obligation to show, one guy insisted that he had the right to see, while the dealer said that whoever was called had to show?
                                                                                                                  Only show to claim the pot usually in live cash (though it's been a while since I've been on any side of a live poker table).

                                                                                                                  I guess the other players who reached showdown could ask to see them but its rare enough.
                                                                                                                  May you live in interesting times!

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                                                                                                                    Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                                                                                    What's the rules about showing when all in pre in a live cash game? I always thought there was no obligation to show, one guy insisted that he had the right to see, while the dealer said that whoever was called had to show?

                                                                                                                    Only TDA tournament's have the rule that players need to turn their cards face up once action is concluded.

                                                                                                                    Other ruling federations don't all have this rule, although there aren't many tourneys using those rules anymore.

                                                                                                                    It most definitely does not apply to cash games.

                                                                                                                    Noone ever has the right to see your cards. unless it is at showdown and you are claiming the pot.

                                                                                                                    The dealer is confusing 2 different situations.

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                                                                                                                      Yeah that's what I figured. He claimed the pot and I mucked anyway. What the dealer said was very odd.
                                                                                                                      Last edited by Denny Crane; 11-07-13, 14:56.

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                                                                                                                        Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                                                                                        Yeah that's what I figured. He claimed the pot and I mucked anyway. What the dealer said was very odd.
                                                                                                                        dealers aren't required to learn the rules, most pick them up 2nd or 3rd hand from colleges or customers.
                                                                                                                        Then they get made into floorpeople.

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                                                                                                                          Fitz 55 Double Chance. Villain in the hand is 40ish, seems ok. Has just amassed a huge stack after getting dealt big pairs and people shoving into him. Been raising a lot more with stack. Table is 6 handed for last couple of hands.

                                                                                                                          Blinds 800/1500/100

                                                                                                                          Villain raises 3500 on button and I defend BB with K9 playing c. 55k (effective stack)

                                                                                                                          Flop KQ9 and check call a 5500 bet. Could prob check raise here I suppose

                                                                                                                          Turn is 6 check to villain with intention of raising/getting it in if he bets. He dwells for a few secs and announces all in...

                                                                                                                          Easy call/fold?

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