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    Incident at Final Table

    Ok, Its the Cash League Final and there is €1200 in the prize pool. There are five players left and the blinds are at 800/1500. I am in the big blind but am pretty low stacked with only 12/13 big blinds left.
    I get dealt Jack,3 off and of course am eager to see a flop for nothing more! The three other players all fold and it comes around to the small blind.
    The small blind drops out a 5,000 chip out on the table.
    The dealer says; " Is that a call or a raise?"
    The small blind says; " Call... or I mean raise!"
    I. of course object to the raise. The dealer goes about justifying the raise when I am not having any of it. He reckons that the chip speaks! I ask him then why the query? He apologies for the query when it was obvious that it was a raise! I say it wasn't that obvious a raise as the player when asked the question answered "call!"
    The dealer goes into more detail as to how the small blind has the smaller chips to just call and it's "obvious" that she meant to raise.
    I call the floor manager over and he is pretty clueless to the situation.
    Of course I know that she meant to raise but she said the word call in response to the specific question.
    Opinions?

    #2
    1 chip with no verbal declaration = call
    Pining for Wa'erford

    Comment


      #3
      In any tournie I have played. One chip just means a call, unless you say it. This is just a call in my book. Then he goes on to say it was a call first before a raise. I'd have kicked up holy hell to be fair because you're 100% right.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Shogun View Post
        Ok, Its the Cash League Final and there is €1200 in the prize pool. There are five players left and the blinds are at 800/1500. I am in the big blind but am pretty low stacked with only 12/13 big blinds left.
        I get dealt Jack,3 off and of course am eager to see a flop for nothing more! The three other players all fold and it comes around to the small blind.
        The small blind drops out a 5,000 chip out on the table.
        The dealer says; " Is that a call or a raise?"
        The small blind says; " Call... or I mean raise!"
        I. of course object to the raise. The dealer goes about justifying the raise when I am not having any of it. He reckons that the chip speaks! I ask him then why the query? He apologies for the query when it was obvious that it was a raise! I say it wasn't that obvious a raise as the player when asked the question answered "call!"
        The dealer goes into more detail as to how the small blind has the smaller chips to just call and it's "obvious" that she meant to raise.
        I call the floor manager over and he is pretty clueless to the situation.
        Of course I know that she meant to raise but she said the word call in response to the specific question.
        Opinions?
        Horrible horrible ruling, its only a call.

        I do see it all the time and have been guilty of it myself from time to time when I mean to raise but mistakenly say nothing when I throw a chip into the pot.

        I use to think this myself when starting out that when you throw a larger denomination chip into a pot when its obvious you would have chips to make just the call that logic would dictate that I meant to raise.

        But no declaration was made as to the intention of the what was going to be done so its just a call, should be pretty universal so the TD should of really known this and over ruled the dealer.
        "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

        Comment


          #5
          The small blind had 800 out and then threw out another 5000 chip in silence without first retrieving the 800?

          If so, it is a raise and it doesn't matter what questions are asked or how these questions are answered.

          Comment


            #6
            Any place I've ever played poker in would rule that as a call because the player didnt state raise, yes its obvious she wanted to raise but in the vast majority of clubs and poker tours td would rule this as a call.
            Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by sligboi View Post
              1 chip with no verbal declaration = call
              this imo.

              Also, where the fuck are people getting "it's obvious she wanted to raise"?

              She was asked what she wanted to do and replied that she wanted to call, before then declaring that she wanted in fact to raise.

              It's very far from "obvious she wanted to raise".

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by sligboi View Post
                1 chip with no verbal declaration = call
                I agree with this 100%, but the way OP describes it, it is a non-verbal, muliple chip action, the total of which is more than double the bet.

                It is a raise.

                Comment


                  #9
                  if it happened to me and i thought that she really meant raise and got flustered i would let it go. i do believe you can call for a ruling and that it should be made a call going strictly by the rule book.

                  i dont like when people scream for a ruling in cases where there is a genuine mistake or misreading of the situation. If for a moment i thought there was any angleshooting or underhandedness i wouldnt let it go for a second and demand the rule was adhered to.

                  i would also consider how much of a stickler this person was for rules or had poor etiquette
                  at the table and dig my heels in if i felt for a minute they were the type that wouldnt be reasonable towards another player's genuine mistake.

                  i see this all the time in live games and i wish players would go with common sense and a sense of sportmanship. this exact incident happens so so often that it should be made a huge issue of when dealers are being trained.

                  dealers should be in like a flash to say its a call and nothing more. this nips it in the bud. if the dealer asks the question did you mean to raise and entertains the other player is when it gets real messy and this could be so easily avoided if dealers would just clue into this easily preventable problem.

                  thats just my view on it. i know peolple will say to hell with that, there's money involved and if they made a mistake they couldnt expect leniency but for me personally in the long run i feel better about having a sense of sportsmanship and reasonableness in a spot like this where a player had genuinely made and error and not changed there tune so as to gain an advantage. just my 2cent.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                    I agree with this 100%, but the way OP describes it, it is a non-verbal, muliple chip action, the total of which is more than double the bet.

                    It is a raise.
                    Multi what?

                    Says in op she dropped a single 5k chip

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Emmet View Post
                      Multi what?

                      Says in op she dropped a single 5k chip
                      He means she is the small blind and as such has chip already beyond the line and tbh honest I hadn't considered this when I replied so I'm inclined to agree. Obv only if she never retrieves what she had in the pot before putting in the chip.

                      Think the rule is if it's more than one chip and 50% more than the current bet then it's a raise.
                      Pining for Wa'erford

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Emmet View Post
                        Multi what?

                        Says in op she dropped a single 5k chip

                        Folded to sb, who drops in a 5000 chip. There is now 5800 out in front of sb:

                        Originally posted by Shogun View Post
                        The three other players all fold and it comes around to the small blind.
                        The small blind drops out a 5,000 chip out on the table.
                        I am reading this exactly how it reads. If she had taken in her 800 before throwing out the big chip then yes, it's a call. If, as is suggested in OP, her only action was to throw out the big chip, then it is a raise.

                        Maybe the OP can clarify.
                        Last edited by Morihei; 09-12-10, 21:39.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Blinds are part of the pot, not part of a players stack no?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                            Folded to sb, who drops in a 5000 chip. There is now 5800 out in front
                            Ah, forgot about blinds. 10 days pokerless messes with your brain.

                            Starting to rethink my intial "it's a call" thought

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Keane View Post
                              Blinds are part of the pot, not part of a players stack no?
                              I hear you, but there is no pot until all actions have been completed.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Def should be a raise. She clearly meant to raise. If you know this and are trying to get a ruling it's angleshooting pretty much

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Again, where is her clearly meaning to raise coming through for people?

                                  When asked to clarify her intention she says "call" FFS!

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by cardshark202 View Post
                                    Def should be a raise. She clearly meant to raise. If you know this and are trying to get a ruling it's angleshooting pretty much
                                    Throwing one chip in and then saying you wanted to 'call' is def not taking as a raise. Angleshoot or not, if you son outta it that you make this many mistakes you deserve to be punished. Awful ruling.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                                      I agree with this 100%, but the way OP describes it, it is a non-verbal, muliple chip action, the total of which is more than double the bet.

                                      It is a raise.
                                      Nice post, is that what it say's in Robert's Rules?

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        I would think it should be just a call as no raise was announced it doesn't matter what she had in her chip stack.If the 5000 chip had been her final chip would it be classed as an all-in without stating her intention its a call as it cuts out the angle-shooting as if the bb shoved she could say it was only a call and fold,and had stated mistake or not call first.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Keane View Post
                                          Again, where is her clearly meaning to raise coming through for people?
                                          Originally posted by Shogun View Post
                                          Of course I know that she meant to raise but she said the word call in response to the specific question.
                                          I think this is where.

                                          Sounds like a raise to me, also agree with cardshark that you're simply angleshooting as you've said you know she was trying to raise.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                            Nice post, is that what it say's in Robert's Rules?
                                            I've never read Robert's Rules. Have you?

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                                              I've never read Robert's Rules. Have you?
                                              Dealer Boo Boo here!! simple as that ,1 chip= call plus verbal declarations are binding as well.
                                              Dissappointed u didnt get nice X33, XJ3 for free and chance to get a nice pot brewing
                                              and have a better stack.......
                                              Poker players sometimes dont do what they say and dont mean what they do, even if they do say it!!!!!

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                                                I agree with this 100%, but the way OP describes it, it is a non-verbal, muliple chip action, the total of which is more than double the bet.

                                                It is a raise.
                                                If the SB only had 5k chips behind, then forcing a raise because she didn't take back the 800 first would be both stupid and wrong.

                                                But because the OP had 100 chips, and prob 1k chips, the fact that she choose a 5k chips shows her intentions.

                                                The fact that she said call first means nothing as she quickly corrected herself.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Shogun View Post
                                                  Ok, Its the Cash League Final and there is €1200 in the prize pool. There are five players left and the blinds are at 800/1500. I am in the big blind but am pretty low stacked with only 12/13 big blinds left.
                                                  I get dealt Jack,3 off and of course am eager to see a flop for nothing more! The three other players all fold and it comes around to the small blind.
                                                  The small blind drops out a 5,000 chip out on the table.
                                                  The dealer says; " Is that a call or a raise?"
                                                  The small blind says; " Call... or I mean raise!"
                                                  I. of course object to the raise. The dealer goes about justifying the raise when I am not having any of it. He reckons that the chip speaks! I ask him then why the query? He apologies for the query when it was obvious that it was a raise! I say it wasn't that obvious a raise as the player when asked the question answered "call!"
                                                  The dealer goes into more detail as to how the small blind has the smaller chips to just call and it's "obvious" that she meant to raise.
                                                  I call the floor manager over and he is pretty clueless to the situation.
                                                  Of course I know that she meant to raise but she said the word call in response to the specific question. Opinions?
                                                  Shogun says himself that he new she meant to raise so the real question is should he be able to take advantage of the situ to see a cheap flop or not .I think not , take it as a raise multi chips / more than 50% etc and warn the player to be clear infuture .

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                                                    The small blind had 800 out and then threw out another 5000 chip in silence without first retrieving the 800?

                                                    If so, it is a raise and it doesn't matter what questions are asked or how these questions are answered.
                                                    It's still just a call if he only places 1 chip into the pot.
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                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      I've never been in a Casino where they even asked if you just threw in one chip, it's always just a call. It's a bummer because sometimes it happens to me, but I accept my error and move on.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                        It's still just a call if he only places 1 chip into the pot.
                                                        what?
                                                        So the small blind doesnt count wtf?

                                                        SB already in the pot, placing one more chip in the pot = multiple chips in the pot and is clearly a raise

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Donkathon View Post
                                                          what?
                                                          So the small blind doesnt count wtf?

                                                          SB already in the pot, placing one more chip in the pot = multiple chips in the pot and is clearly a raise
                                                          If it was clearly a raise then this discussion wouldn't be continuing.

                                                          I think it opens up possible angleshooting for the person in the sb because they get to see the reaction of the bb before they have to decide if it's a raise or not.

                                                          If you throw 1 chip in and don't say anything then it's a call regardless of what position at the table you are in.

                                                          Example: If a player limps for 500 and someone makes it 1500, comes back around to limper and he throws in a 5k chip then reaches for his 500.
                                                          Is this a call or a 5.5k raise?

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Imo its a raise. Small blind is in the pot so any chip thats put in to the pot thats equal to or greater than 1.5 times the big blind constitutes a raise if nothing has been said before the action takes place.
                                                            'Mental Toughness is doing the right thing for the team when it's not the best thing for you' - Bill Belichick

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                                              Example: If a player limps for 500 and someone makes it 1500, comes back around to limper and he throws in a 5k chip then reaches for his 500.
                                                              Is this a call or a 5.5k raise?
                                                              If the muppet throws a $5k chip in without saying anything and without removing his limp from the pot then that is a raise to $5.5k because there is multiple chips now in the pot,

                                                              Now if he takes the $500 chips out then throws the lone $5k chip in I would class this as a call unless he announces raise simples

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                                It's still just a call if he only places 1 chip into the pot.
                                                                really like to hear a reply from JP does he seriously not count the sb as chips in the pot?

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Donkathon View Post
                                                                  really like to hear a reply from JP does he seriously not count the sb as chips in the pot?
                                                                  The chips are already in the pot!

                                                                  This is a standard rule which I've seen used all across Europe. The players intentions are not clear and so we rule based on the one chip rule.

                                                                  In the OP the SB even said call.

                                                                  Let me give you another example...

                                                                  Say we are on the flop.

                                                                  Player A places a single 5k chip into the pot and says bet 1k.
                                                                  Player B announces raise 3,100.
                                                                  Player A places a single 100 chip into the pot and said nothing.

                                                                  Do we rule its a call because we think that the player was trying to make the dealers job easy so he could give back 2 single 1k chips?

                                                                  Is it a raise to 5,100

                                                                  If we think its a raise and we use double the total bet, do we now use the 50% rule and make it 6,200

                                                                  Or if we think its raise and we use double the increment do we make it a min raise of and make it 5,200
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                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Very nice point JP you've killed two birds with one stone,
                                                                    Converted me to believe it is a call based on the one chip rule and cleared it up after having to explain it to me like a 3yr old

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      JP Poker makes the most complete sense with his post.
                                                                      This is the rule all over the Poker world and common courtesy does not enter the equation!
                                                                      I knew she was meaning to raise but when asked the blurted out "Call!" The fact that I knew what she "meant" to do or say is irrelevant. Rules are rules weather they be to the advantage or not!
                                                                      I cant believe that people are still thinking that it was a justifiable raise..
                                                                      Anyway, the following week the dealer in question apologised profusely and admitted that he had made a huge error and that it was indeed a call.
                                                                      I didn't like the whole "I am angleshooting" accusation either..

                                                                      S

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        If you feel sure that the player's intention was to raise and you try to force them to call that is angleshooting by its definition IMO.

                                                                        How in this particular instance you could have been sure I don't know though.

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                                          The chips are already in the pot!
                                                                          I am of the belief that there is no pot until all preflop actions have been completed.

                                                                          It's folded to me on the small blind (800) and I throw in my last 5000 chip intending to go all in.

                                                                          Would you rule it as a call because I said nothing? I have thrown all my chips in!

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Sounds like a raise to me. If it were the button, it'd be a call.
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                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                                                                              I am of the belief that there is no pot until all preflop actions have been completed.

                                                                              It's folded to me on the small blind (800) and I throw in my last 5000 chip intending to go all in.

                                                                              Would you rule it as a call because I said nothing? I have thrown all my chips in!
                                                                              The bold bit seems a bit random to me, where have you gotten that idea from? How can you raise pot pre-flop in PLO?

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                If the SB has 800 out and throws in 5k then they have put 5.8k in preflop, not a single chip.

                                                                                If they pulled the sb in and threw in a 5k chip saying nothing then its a call.

                                                                                This is a raise imo.

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  From my point of view I would take this as a raise but I think that JPsvote is the one that really counts. I always thought that it was if you had smaller chips to make up the call and chose to throw in a bigger one it was a raise as if you wanted to call then you would have used the smaller stuff

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by Gilligan-Black View Post
                                                                                    I think that JPsvote is the one that really counts.
                                                                                    To my mind, JP is one of the best TDs in the country and I have nothing but respect for the assured way that he runs his events, but the topic in this thread really needs further discussion.

                                                                                    Some similar examples:

                                                                                    Blinds 100/200, player A raises to 600, player B throws in 1100 in silence to make it 'easier for the dealer', and expects 500 change. I'm sorry but this is a RAISE.

                                                                                    Folded to SB, who completes. BB ponders a raise, gets a pile of chips together, and puts them out in front of him. He then takes in his BB. Again, I'm sorry but that BB stays out in front along with the other chips. (I've seen 'experienced' players do this) This never seems to be questioned by the dealer when it happens.

                                                                                    Player throws out a big chip and dealer announces 'call'. Player says 'no, it's a raise! Can't you see that I have small chips that I would've used if I'd wanted to just call?' People, THIS IS A CALL. It is not the job of the dealer to organise a player's stack for him and gauge what kind of chips he wants in it.

                                                                                    Now back to my question: Blinds 800/1500, folded to SB, who throws in his/her last 5000 chip in silence (thus leaving anything up to 9 chips in front of him/herself) intending to go all in. Would the ruling be 'sorry, you didn't say raise, it's only a call'?

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                                                                                      To my mind, JP is one of the best TDs in the country and I have nothing but respect for the assured way that he runs his events, but the topic in this thread really needs further discussion.

                                                                                      Some similar examples:

                                                                                      Blinds 100/200, player A raises to 600, player B throws in 1100 in silence to make it 'easier for the dealer', and expects 500 change. I'm sorry but this is a RAISE.

                                                                                      Folded to SB, who completes. BB ponders a raise, gets a pile of chips together, and puts them out in front of him. He then takes in his BB. Again, I'm sorry but that BB stays out in front along with the other chips. (I've seen 'experienced' players do this) This never seems to be questioned by the dealer when it happens.

                                                                                      Player throws out a big chip and dealer announces 'call'. Player says 'no, it's a raise! Can't you see that I have small chips that I would've used if I'd wanted to just call?' People, THIS IS A CALL. It is not the job of the dealer to organise a player's stack for him and gauge what kind of chips he wants in it.

                                                                                      Now back to my question: Blinds 800/1500, folded to SB, who throws in his/her last 5000 chip in silence (thus leaving anything up to 9 chips in front of him/herself) intending to go all in. Would the ruling be 'sorry, you didn't say raise, it's only a call'?


                                                                                      Blinds 100/200, player A raises to 600, player B throws in 1100 in silence to make it 'easier for the dealer', and expects 500 change. I'm sorry but this is a RAISE.

                                                                                      This is a raise because they threw in more than 1 chip and the total is more than 150% of the previous action. Minimum raise applies up to total put in by 2nd player.

                                                                                      Folded to SB, who completes. BB ponders a raise, gets a pile of chips together, and puts them out in front of him. He then takes in his BB. Again, I'm sorry but that BB stays out in front along with the other chips. (I've seen 'experienced' players do this) This never seems to be questioned by the dealer when it happens.

                                                                                      Dealer and player should know better, I agree, all chips stay in pot unless exact raise announced before chip maneuver.

                                                                                      Player throws out a big chip and dealer announces 'call'. Player says 'no, it's a raise! Can't you see that I have small chips that I would've used if I'd wanted to just call?' People, THIS IS A CALL. It is not the job of the dealer to organise a player's stack for him and gauge what kind of chips he wants in it.

                                                                                      It's a call.

                                                                                      Now back to my question: Blinds 800/1500, folded to SB, who throws in his/her last 5000 chip in silence (thus leaving anything up to 9 chips in front of him/herself) intending to go all in. Would the ruling be 'sorry, you didn't say raise, it's only a call'?

                                                                                      The problem here is, say the BB is ultra tight and SB throws in the 5k chip. If the BB instasnaps pushing the chips in to cover all SB's chips then the SB could say he didn't intend to go all in, that he was just limping.

                                                                                      Then you have to have different rules for what constitutes a call or a raise depending on whether you are in the blinds or if you have limped and someone raises.

                                                                                      Say you are playing 5200, limp for 200 someone makes it 600 and you throw out the 5k and say nothing, what is your intention. If it leaves it open for confusion, angleshooting, discussion etc. then there is something wrong. Hence the rule should be: throw a single chip in and say nothing = call of the current bet and that's it. If you don't stick to the rule then it's your mistake.

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