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    Ambiguous Bet? JP's game

    This hand was discussed in the Live Updates thread but I'm posting it here as I think it merits discussion and I'm not a rules expert but IMO the rules quoted in the Live thread do not fully cover the action in the hand.

    Blinds 250/500 with Antes and I 3 bet KK out of the SB and get 2 calls (UTG and Button), 9k in the pot preflop.

    J22
    I lead for 2400, UTG flats and Button makes it 8000. At this stage I ask him how much he has behind as hes in seat 9 and im in seat 2. He doesn't say anything but just puts his big chips to the front of a messy stack which includes lots of small denomination chips. I guesstimate roughly 20k.
    I call, UTG folds. 27k in the middle.

    The turn is a 5, I check.
    He starts stacking his chips as if he's counting them and brings them together into a kind of triangle (I think he's gonna shove) and he simultaneously says "twenty two" while throwing out 2 5k chips and 2 100 chips (ie 10200).

    There is then a discussion between the dealer and player as to the bet size (I think the dealer thinks he's all in but I'm not sure). I ask for a ruling. He says that his intention was 2200.

    When JP comes the dealer relates everything correctly (obviously omitting some of the acting pre announcing twenty two.
    JP rules the bet to be 2200.
    FWIW the guy was about 800 chips short of 22000 at the time.

    I dunno, I think it's not a great rule/ruling.
    Any thoughts, is it black and white?

    #2
    If he says 22 while the blinds are in the hundreds (500) then it means 22 hundred??? as he announces bet then it stands?

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Arazi View Post
      This hand was discussed in the Live Updates thread but I'm posting it here as I think it merits discussion and I'm not a rules expert but IMO the rules quoted in the Live thread do not fully cover the action in the hand.

      Blinds 250/500 with Antes and I 3 bet KK out of the SB and get 2 calls (UTG and Button), 9k in the pot preflop.

      J22
      I lead for 2400, UTG flats and Button makes it 8000. At this stage I ask him how much he has behind as hes in seat 9 and im in seat 2. He doesn't say anything but just puts his big chips to the front of a messy stack which includes lots of small denomination chips. I guesstimate roughly 20k.
      I call, UTG folds. 27k in the middle.

      The turn is a 5, I check.
      He starts stacking his chips as if he's counting them and brings them together into a kind of triangle (I think he's gonna shove) and he simultaneously says "twenty two" while throwing out 2 5k chips and 2 100 chips (ie 10200).

      There is then a discussion between the dealer and player as to the bet size (I think the dealer thinks he's all in but I'm not sure). I ask for a ruling. He says that his intention was 2200.

      When JP comes the dealer relates everything correctly (obviously omitting some of the acting pre announcing twenty two.
      JP rules the bet to be 2200.
      FWIW the guy was about 800 chips short of 22000 at the time.

      I dunno, I think it's not a great rule/ruling.
      Any thoughts, is it black and white?

      It’s a strange one. The action described and a bet of 2200 into a pot of 27000 doesn’t make much sense, so easy to see where your coming from.

      But, going by the ruling given by carlinrose in the live updates thread, it seems that the td has to give the benefit of the doubt to the other player when the bet amount is in doubt.

      Seems like jp made the only ruling that he really could have made in fairness.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Delooners View Post
        It’s a strange one. The action described and a bet of 2200 into a pot of 27000 doesn’t make much sense, so easy to see where your coming from.

        But, going by the ruling given by carlinrose in the live updates thread, it seems that the td has to give the benefit of the doubt to the other player when the bet amount is in doubt.

        Seems like jp made the only ruling that he really could have made in fairness.
        Ye my problem really is with the "Rule".
        Number one I think it's a bullshit rule. Surely if at 100/200 if there's 6500 in the pot and a guy says "Four" as he throws out a 5k chip then ruling that the bet is 400 can't be correct, so I have a big problem with the "Rule".

        As to the "Ruling", I agree that it's difficult for JP but "rules" should be such that a TD can consider the full picture. That rule as quoted by Carlinrose doesn't take the previous betting rounds into account. It also doesn't take the fact that the lad threw 10200 into the middle into account. IMO it wasn't his intention to bet 2200, I think everything at the time points to that.

        Comment


          #5
          The TDA rules clearly state that in cases like this the bet will be with the lower amount:

          49: Non-Standard & Unclear Betting
          Players use unofficial betting terms and gestures at their own risk. These may be interpreted to mean other than what the player intended. Also, whenever the size of a declared bet can reasonably have multiple meanings, it will be ruled as the lesser value. Ex: “I bet five”. If it is unclear whether “five” means $500 or $5,000, the bet stands as $500. See Rules 2, 3 & 40.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Arazi View Post
            Ye my problem really is with the "Rule".
            Number one I think it's a bullshit rule. Surely if at 100/200 if there's 6500 in the pot and a guy says "Four" as he throws out a 5k chip then ruling that the bet is 400 can't be correct, so I have a big problem with the "Rule".

            As to the "Ruling", I agree that it's difficult for JP but "rules" should be such that a TD can consider the full picture. That rule as quoted by Carlinrose doesn't take the previous betting rounds into account. It also doesn't take the fact that the lad threw 10200 into the middle into account. IMO it wasn't his intention to bet 2200, I think everything at the time points to that.
            I agree with you but to play devils advocate here if he was 800 short of 22k surely he would announce all in?

            Comment


              #7
              IF someone says 22 and puts out 10k then I'm making it 22k not 2200 . However I've no idea on the rules and whatever official rule set there is seems to mean JP made the correct ruling.

              Could he have not made 10200 the bet?
              Hunter S Thompson 1937-2005 - "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro"

              Comment


                #8
                Arazi, was there any confusion with players over the colours of the 1k chip vs 5k, and/or was the player a frequent visitor to JPs?
                ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

                Comment


                  #9
                  ...
                  "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by RasTa View Post
                    IF someone says 22 and puts out 10k then I'm making it 22k not 2200 . However I've no idea on the rules and whatever official rule set there is seems to mean JP made the correct ruling.

                    Could he have not made 10200 the bet?

                    I was at the table for this one, it was a wierd one alright. The problem was you couldn't know if he meant twenty two hundreds or twenty two thousand. If you give him the benefit of the doubt, you could say he put in 2 yellow chips by mistake instead of two blue chips (yellow 5k, blue 1k).

                    I don't see how JP could rule any different. I am not going to comment on the play though as that is a totally different matter
                    No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Micknail View Post
                      Arazi, was there any confusion with players over the colours of the 1k chip vs 5k, and/or was the player a frequent visitor to JPs?
                      Nope Yellow and Blue. Tbh I'm not a regular so I don't know about yer man. I think my issue really is with the rule, it takes nothing else into consideration.
                      I actually think that the intended bet was 10200 but I dunno how/if that can be enforced.
                      The guy had Ace high so there's no way IMO that he intended to bet 2200.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Out of interest, how did the player go about changing his intentions? What happened between his attempting to go all in and then changing his bet to very small?

                        As for the rules, a) the less they rely on TDs/Dealers trying to gauge peoples intent the better and b) the rules are neutral, and so when enforced will sometimes have a negative impact on other players. There is no way around this. For example, in this hand you would rather a big bet, but there are many situations in which a smaller bet would suit you better.

                        This is quite an unusual situation since the player has made several mistakes at once.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Well I don't know what his intentions were and my view wasnt great (seat 2 to 9), but he started by sorting/counting/stacking his chips together - then he said "twenty two" as he threw the 4 chips in front of him. There was then some discussion between himself and the dealer and some of the other players started getting involved then so I just asked the dealer what was going on and then asked for a ruling.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Was at table too, the player meant to bet 10,200 and just got real lucky he announced 22 by accident. Was in no way an angle it was just a big pot (with a bluff) and he panicked. I was on your side yesterday but cant blame jp its just the rule. I wouldnt blame the player either as when dealer was like 22k he was like okay imall in then, it wasnt him who called for the ruling to make it 2200.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                              The TDA rules clearly state that in cases like this the bet will be with the lower amount:

                              49: Non-Standard & Unclear Betting
                              Players use unofficial betting terms and gestures at their own risk. These may be interpreted to mean other than what the player intended. Also, whenever the size of a declared bet can reasonably have multiple meanings, it will be ruled as the lesser value. Ex: “I bet five”. If it is unclear whether “five” means $500 or $5,000, the bet stands as $500. See Rules 2, 3 & 40.
                              Think Arazi has resigned that the rule was implemented in the correct way........ I assume is is questioning the fairness of it....
                              D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Sounds like he was looking to get a read on you and knew he could take advantage of the rules if he didn't like what was coming. Piss poor etiquette. Either that or he had absolutely no idea what he was doing. What standard was he?

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  the problem is you are assuming intention.

                                  Unfortunately in situations like these (outside of poker too) it is impossible to prove intention.

                                  You can only be held accountable for what you actually do not what someone else assumes you should/would do.

                                  In the reverse, if the had thrown out more chips than he intended he would be bound to that bet as well.

                                  No matter what play acting (or genuine display) he makes before he bets, it is only the chips that hit the felt, or the verbal declaration that is binding.

                                  If someone is showboating counting their chips in an effort to get you to give up some free information before betting 10% of his stack as a wind up, then the show boating is irrelevant, no one can say whether or not he intended to bet more, or that he should bet more because it looked like he was preparing to go all in. It is up to you to not react to his display and not give away the information he is seeking.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    If he pushed 10200 across the line should that bet not stand regardless of what he said . ??

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by AKQJ10 View Post
                                      Was at table too, the player meant to bet 10,200 and just got real lucky he announced 22 by accident. Was in no way an angle it was just a big pot (with a bluff) and he panicked. I was on your side yesterday but cant blame jp its just the rule. I wouldnt blame the player either as when dealer was like 22k he was like okay imall in then, it wasnt him who called for the ruling to make it 2200.
                                      Originally posted by Nic View Post
                                      Sounds like he was looking to get a read on you and knew he could take advantage of the rules if he didn't like what was coming. Piss poor etiquette. Either that or he had absolutely no idea what he was doing. What standard was he?
                                      lol
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                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                        If he pushed 10200 across the line should that bet not stand regardless of what he said . ??
                                        if the chips hit the felt before he speaks yes.
                                        just cos he's thinking one thing but doing something else doesn't mean we can change his bet for him.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Hi Guys,

                                          I wanted to let this run for a few days so people could air their opinions before I came on and replied.

                                          I spoke to Ciaran on Saturday night and mentioned to him this is a rule which has seen a change in the most recent TDA's summit of June'13. At the time I wasn't 100% sure what was the deciding factor on determining if the bet was at the higher or lower amount but told Ciaran it was to do with the last round of betting.

                                          I've since checked it out and under the old rule...

                                          If a player makes an ambiguous bet were the bet amount could have two meanings as in this case with twenty two (2,200 or 22,000). Under the old rule, if the last round of betting was at the higher amount i.e bet of 22k then this round of betting would also be 22k.

                                          The betting action on the flop was 8k so under both the old rule and current rule the ambiguous bet of twenty two would mean 2,200.

                                          The TDA added a new rule in this years summit which I personally love.

                                          2: Player Responsibilities
                                          Players are expected to verify registration data and seat assignments, protect their hands,
                                          make their intentions clear, follow the action, act in turn, defend their right to act, keep cards
                                          visible, keep chips correctly stacked, remain at the table with a live hand, speak up if they see a
                                          mistake being made, transfer tables promptly, follow one player to a hand, know and comply
                                          with the rules, follow proper etiquette, and generally contribute to an orderly tournament.


                                          This is in addition to a rule added in the summit of 2011

                                          3: Official Terminology of Tournament Poker
                                          Official betting terms are simple, unmistakable, time-honored declarations like: bet, raise, call,
                                          fold, check, all-in, pot (in pot-limit only), and complete
                                          . Regional terms may also meet this
                                          standard. The use of non-standard language is at player’s risk because it may result in a ruling
                                          other than what the player intended. It is the responsibility of players to make their intentions
                                          clear. See also Rules 40 & 49.


                                          The combination of these two rules sends a clear message from the TDA that players need to take more responsibility for their actions on a poker table as ambiguous bets and unclear non official poker terminology may be ruled differently to the players intentions.

                                          This is a prime example of intentions been different to their action.

                                          At the time I thought his intention was to bet 10,200, which would make sense as the pot was approx 27k and indeed other players on the table thought this also.

                                          However the player in question announce twenty two before he placed any chips into the pot, and verbal declarations are binding.

                                          37: Verbal Bet Declarations / Acting in Turn / Undercalls
                                          A: Players must act in turn. Verbal betting declarations in turn are binding. Chips put in the pot
                                          in turn stay in the pot. An undercall (betting less than the current call amount) is a mandatory
                                          full call if made facing an opening bet multi-way on any betting round, or facing any bet heads
                                          up. In all other situations, TD’s discretion applies. For purposes of this rule, in blind games the
                                          posted BB is the opening bet on the first round.



                                          So while I thought the players intention was 10,200 because he made his verbal declaration before placing chips into the pot this was not an option for me to rule.

                                          Leaving 2,200 or 22,000 as the only options available. Which has been answered above.

                                          I hope this clears things up and explains the though process on the ruling.
                                          €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                                          Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                                          €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                                          CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                            Hi Guys,

                                            I wanted to let this run for a few days so people could air their opinions before I came on and replied.

                                            SPOILER
                                            I spoke to Ciaran on Saturday night and mentioned to him this is a rule which has seen a change in the most recent TDA's summit of June'13. At the time I wasn't 100% sure what was the deciding factor on determining if the bet was at the higher or lower amount but told Ciaran it was to do with the last round of betting.

                                            I've since checked it out and under the old rule...

                                            If a player makes an ambiguous bet were the bet amount could have two meanings as in this case with twenty two (2,200 or 22,000). Under the old rule, if the last round of betting was at the higher amount i.e bet of 22k then this round of betting would also be 22k.

                                            The betting action on the flop was 8k so under both the old rule and current rule the ambiguous bet of twenty two would mean 2,200.

                                            The TDA added a new rule in this years summit which I personally love.

                                            2: Player Responsibilities
                                            Players are expected to verify registration data and seat assignments, protect their hands,
                                            make their intentions clear, follow the action, act in turn, defend their right to act, keep cards
                                            visible, keep chips correctly stacked, remain at the table with a live hand, speak up if they see a
                                            mistake being made, transfer tables promptly, follow one player to a hand, know and comply
                                            with the rules, follow proper etiquette, and generally contribute to an orderly tournament.


                                            This is in addition to a rule added in the summit of 2011

                                            3: Official Terminology of Tournament Poker
                                            Official betting terms are simple, unmistakable, time-honored declarations like: bet, raise, call,
                                            fold, check, all-in, pot (in pot-limit only), and complete
                                            . Regional terms may also meet this
                                            standard. The use of non-standard language is at player’s risk because it may result in a ruling
                                            other than what the player intended. It is the responsibility of players to make their intentions
                                            clear. See also Rules 40 & 49.


                                            The combination of these two rules sends a clear message from the TDA that players need to take more responsibility for their actions on a poker table as ambiguous bets and unclear non official poker terminology may be ruled differently to the players intentions.

                                            This is a prime example of intentions been different to their action.

                                            At the time I thought his intention was to bet 10,200, which would make sense as the pot was approx 27k and indeed other players on the table thought this also.

                                            However the player in question announce twenty two before he placed any chips into the pot, and verbal declarations are binding.

                                            37: Verbal Bet Declarations / Acting in Turn / Undercalls
                                            A: Players must act in turn. Verbal betting declarations in turn are binding. Chips put in the pot
                                            in turn stay in the pot. An undercall (betting less than the current call amount) is a mandatory
                                            full call if made facing an opening bet multi-way on any betting round, or facing any bet heads
                                            up. In all other situations, TD’s discretion applies. For purposes of this rule, in blind games the
                                            posted BB is the opening bet on the first round.



                                            So while I thought the players intention was 10,200 because he made his verbal declaration before placing chips into the pot this was not an option for me to rule.

                                            Leaving 2,200 or 22,000 as the only options available. Which has been answered above.


                                            I hope this clears things up and explains the though process on the ruling.
                                            Hi JP, what I would like to know is if, as it was in this instance, why was the unclear bet deemed binding if there was no action after the bet. Would it not make more sense just to get clarification from the player to what bet he wanted to make and use that clarification as the binding bet?
                                            No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by pokerhand View Post
                                              Hi JP, what I would like to know is if, as it was in this instance, why was the unclear bet deemed binding if there was no action after the bet. Would it not make more sense just to get clarification from the player to what bet he wanted to make and use that clarification as the binding bet?
                                              Yes, all solved painlessly if the dealer says quickly "is that 2,200 or 22,000".

                                              Comment

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