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.25/.50 w/ante; Tough river spot with AK in 4b pot

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    .25/.50 w/ante; Tough river spot with AK in 4b pot

    Just sat down to pass time while deep in last MTT of the night but have been 3betting a ton and table generally seems pretty aggro.

    Hero is running 43/36 with 31% 3bet over 29, while villain in question is 41/35 with a 33% 3bet over the same small sample and 4-tabling 6max. Relevant history; CO in hand has r/f to my 3b three times so may seem like a spot, villain has 3bet me once IP and gave up on KxxT9 when I floated flop and bombed river.

    Given texture I figure calling flop makes villains turn action pretty transparent, river seems less clear but overall I think villain reps very little when I block almost every hand he can take this line with for value.. Thoughts on our line thus far? Having got here what are we doing?

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    UTG ($77.13)
    MP ($94.65)
    CO ($55.23)
    Hero (Button) ($144.49)
    SB ($129.87)
    BB ($50.95)

    Preflop: Hero is Button with A, K
    2 folds, CO bets $1.50, Hero raises to $4.42, SB raises to $13.54, 2 folds, Hero calls $9.12

    Flop: ($29.68) 5, 4, Q (2 players)
    SB bets $14.75, Hero calls $14.75

    Turn: ($59.18) 9 (2 players)
    SB checks, Hero checks

    River: ($59.18) 2 (2 players)
    SB bets $37.64, Hero ?
    "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

    #2
    It's not a 3bet tho, it's a cold 4bet so how often would be take this line with a hand worse than AK? If he got funky with AQ/KQs would be not check the turn for pot control and then fire the river? After 3betting, you're probably going to call that flop with every hand you've called his 4 bet with so i don't mind him checking all his nut hands on the turn. If we call the river, the only bluffs i'd expect to see would be KJs/J10s. I'm useless at cash tho

    Comment


      #3
      I think he has AA and KK a lot here. People are very uncomfortable stacking off with just an overpair for 250bbs so i guess he was going for the c/c turn and river line. Now that it gets checked through it looks like he is trying to get value from your top pair hands. I find that bet/check/bet lines are rarely bluffs and that's all you beat so even though we block them, i still think it's a fold. Played fine but I might stab the turn and check back river if called.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by ikilldurrr1 View Post
        I think he has AA and KK a lot here. People are very uncomfortable stacking off with just an overpair for 250bbs so i guess he was going for the c/c turn and river line. Now that it gets checked through it looks like he is trying to get value from your top pair hands. I find that bet/check/bet lines are rarely bluffs and that's all you beat so even though we block them, i still think it's a fold. Played fine but I might stab the turn and check back river if called.
        Im thinking along these lines too

        Comment


          #5
          i would fold flop and fold river.

          Comment


            #6
            ha what a good hand. His check back on the turn would suggest to me anyway that he isnt nutted especially with so much more to go in his default line should be bet bet bet.

            In saying that he could be taking a weak line with AA/KK and going for thin value on the river or bluffing with AK. The problem with calling is that you can still lose to some of his bluffs e.g 9Ts and only chop with AK

            basically his river line looks like thin value and some bluffs so calling is definitely worse than folding

            wait for it.......
            wait for it...........
            wait for it.............

            You should use the force Luke, and shove like a motha fucking boss

            Comment


              #7
              I don't agree with this stuff about him not betting AA/KK again on the turn. People may be uncomfortable getting it in with an OP but that isn't the same as being uncomfortable with betting the turn again. A good/decent player always bets for value on the turn.

              I'd probably make a crying hero call on the river.

              Opr

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Opr View Post
                I don't agree with this stuff about him not betting AA/KK again on the turn. People may be uncomfortable getting it in with an OP but that isn't the same as being uncomfortable with betting the turn again. A good/decent player always bets for value on the turn.
                Why do you say that? It seems like a perfect spot to check AA/KK occasionally, if you don't your turn checking range is going to be incredibly weak.

                I don't really understand OP's play or thinking on this hand. If I'm calling the flop then I'm definitely calling the river given the runout and betting sequence; I'm not sure what you were hoping for. I'd fold the flop - the queen is the worst card in the deck for your relevant ranges.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Not really that concerned with my turn checking range in a 4bet pot. He basically checks everything through that we might have got value from and he bets all the stuff we are behind.

                  Edit - Just on the relevant ranges. I presume the thinking is that it's a pretty amazing 4bet spot for the villain. Re-popping a CO open BTN 3bet his range can be pretty wide given both players are extremely active. He is going to fire most flops but his range is still pretty wide.

                  Opr
                  Last edited by Opr; 01-04-12, 22:41.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    As your villian is 4 tabling, I don't think i'd give that much weight to him seeing or noting all the raise/fold history between you and the cutoff.

                    On other hand, I'd give more weight to history between you and villian - and he has folded to your 'bombing' in 3bet pot previously.

                    If you make the call it really will be a 'hero call' given you only have A high, and its unlikely he's cold 4betting much below A,j.

                    Maybe I'm too weak here, but in my head I thank the man for letting me get to the river and giving me the chance to hit and I click fold noting to myself to bet turn against this villian in the future...

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I don't play much cash on stars, so I would expect any reg to have little or no hands on me. Thus, playing a super-aggro game over a small sample I doubt I get much credit for skill, but rather appear a monkey ready to gamble.

                      With this dynamic, recent history vs CO, and facing a BTN 3bet, I figure villain will be wider than usual in this spot; a range like 88+,A9s+,AJo+,KTs+,KQo+,QTs+,JTs maybe. Vs this range calling flop seems fine with a plan to either showdown or take it away later, so I wasn't too bothered about that, and even if I'm wrong, and he simply hasn't paid any attention to the table/stats/etc, and is tighter at like TT+,AJs+,AQo+,KQs it should just mean dumping more combos of hands which beat us now.. (thoughts?)

                      I think OPR nails it OTT. Vs my image any capable players should be barreling for value with QQ+,AQ+ since I'm paying off with worse a ton, and almost never have TPTK+ so fearing getting stacks in seems quite weak. Under this assumption I felt his check represented either pot-control or a plan to c/r having picked up some sort of draw, I doubted this is ever c/f with a hand that beats me so bluffing seemed somewhat bad when I still have showdown value, might have been best on a blank turn though with a plan to shove any river..?

                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                      If I'm calling the flop then I'm definitely calling the river given the runout and betting sequence; I'm not sure what you were hoping for
                      The plan wasn't exclusively to call-down with A-high tho, I felt that if we weren't already ahead there would be some scope to take the pot away later IP, or even to hit.. But in any case, having got here in a 4b pot, I doubt calling river unimproved will ever be as easy as calling flop, since villain cbets his entire range but will give on his bluffs a non-zero % on later streets. Also, just out interest, since you mentioned the Qxx being terrible for our respective ranges, what kind of flops would you peel here unimproved?

                      Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                      You should use the force Luke, and shove like a motha fucking boss
                      OTR villains range is almost certainly capped at 1P, so shoving definitely seems an option, problem is we rep very little and offer a decent price. Then again we have no history of predictability so villain may fathom we show him the blade here some, very difficult to guess how he will perceive this spot with so little history tho..

                      I thought it was close between all three options tbh
                      "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Why is there no 5bet pre?? seems standard no?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by pumpkinS00P View Post
                          Why is there no 5bet pre?? seems standard no?
                          because 5b/f is terrible and we definitely don't want to get in 260BB pre when villain will never stack off with worse
                          "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Yeah 5betting would be horrific. Seeing a flop IP is way better.

                            As played i've found myself in this spot so infrequently I don't know what advice to give tbh!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              agree with ikildurr, what pure bluffs can he have? in general line looks like pot control 100% to me so folding/shoving would be my options, going with fold a lot of the time, i could be under-thinking it tho, imo:
                              bad player plays 99 like this... (obv fold)
                              standard player AQ... (folds most, shove some)
                              good player any 2.... ( flip a coin?)

                              Comment


                                #16
                                when I floated flop and bombed river.
                                How did that river play out, villain check you bet villain fold?

                                If villain is to max his value versus your aggro image, would bet bet bet really be his best line?
                                "Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure, when, in fact, to be proven wrong should be celebrated, for it elevates someone to a new level of understanding."

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by TheSnapper View Post
                                  How did that river play out, villain check you bet villain fold?

                                  If villain is to max his value versus your aggro image, would bet bet bet really be his best line?
                                  He 3b BTN vs my CO open, I c/called like 1/3pot OTF, ck/ck OTT, overbet lead OTR.

                                  I think with my play so far I've painted a more monekyish-aggro image than that of a good LAG player, so against me bet, bet, bet would definitely be a solid value line here with TPTK+ and I think villain should be aware of this having paid any attention. My perceived calling range on that flop is almost exclusively TP/PPs not much of which is folding after calling flop, so barreling all three seems clearly better than checking to disguise and get two streets instead. All assumptions about what villain thinks though so is w/e
                                  "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

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