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Real tricky Turn spot 2/5 Live

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    Real tricky Turn spot 2/5 Live

    This hand is from cash at City West last night, think its a tricky spot.
    Game is 2/5 with a live straddle of 10 in play.
    First to act is a Frenchie (playing 2k) who's been opening lots and makes it his normal 25, next to act is a good Scandi (playing 1700) who's 3-bet the Frenchie on a regular basis (at least 6 times in 3 hours) and he makes it 60.
    I've been playing generally tight although I've played with Scandi before several times so I'd imagine he knows that despite my image on the night I can mix it up. Its folded to me in the HJ and I cold 4-bet to 150 with 9s7d (playing 1300)
    Folded to Scandi who calls.

    Flop (340) 10c 8c 5h
    He checks, I bet 190, he calls

    Turn (720) 2d
    He checks,

    What do we think is the best move/plan for the hand is given stacks etc?

    #2
    I don't like the cold 4bet pre all that much, maybe with something that flops better. Our position is pretty poor and even aggro scandis have to get credit for UTG+1 3bets, assuming this is full-ring.

    As played I'd b/fold turn ~350, setting up a decent river shove, continue our story despite the fact his range is quite strong. Doubt we see Tx/8x very often given preflop line, it would help if we did though, since we would expect QQ/JJ/NFD/Tx fold to a second barrel a decent % of the time.

    The problem with checking behind is we will almost always be looked up on the river if we try to bluff, so we need to hit, but our implied odds for hitting our straight aren't huge since villain will rarely stack off. If a 6 falls villain will just c/c w JJ+, or maybe b/f missed draws, the only way we stack him is if he has precisely JJ/TT and the river is an offsuit Jack.
    "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

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      #3
      All 3 IMO.
      Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

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        #4
        Fold pre.

        Flop betsize isn't great. I prefer $110 (planning to 3 brl) or $250 (planning to ship turn).
        I think the smaller size is prob best here.

        Comment


          #5
          tricky spot all right,

          as winning said, his hand looks strong jj/qq seem v.likley given line unless he's a true atc kinda guy. for this reason i dont think a second barrell is getting through, so as long as your prepared to shove river then bettign 300-350 certainly an ok option..

          Personally as played I'd either check back with the intention of giving up if miss (weak i know but you cant win evry hand) or else I'd bet circa 690 to maximise your f.e. and let him know he has none..i prefer this to triple barreling on a missed river, a big bet here also looks believable as a value bet imo as you could conceivably think he had a flush draw that needed to be charged

          (fwiw- love the 4 bet, if you cant man up abd act on your info/reads then gtfo

          Comment


            #6
            I hate pretty much everything but letting a card come off on the turn here. Like what would you do with AA-JJ? Im not too keen on pre either.

            Comment


              #7
              I like your thinking for cold 4 betting but this isnt really the right spot to get frisky as both the original pre flop raiser and the 3 bettor have a stronger range even if the scandi has been very active. If the scandi likes to fight for pots then I hate cold 4betting hands like 97cc and I would prefer to make this play a bit more profitable by using blockers Axs or Kxs here.

              As played (if i was a bit drunk and feeling aggressive), Id cbet less circa 35%, and db about 60% and shove any A or K river, any club or of course our gin cards.

              If I was sober and scared, Id cb once and take free card and give up on river as I really dont think you will get an easy fold here and you havent given us a more detailed description of how you think the scandi thinks you play...., like take for example, has he scandi seen you Triple barell TPTK or have you been missing out on value bets and checking back rivers??....So if an A or K comes on river and you decide to bluff here, the scandi will know you are polarised and call with QQ,JJ if he has seen you check back TPTK on the river before....

              Sh1tty answer I know but it really is a tricky spot..

              Comment


                #8
                I think I would check back the turn, take your card and make a decision on what he does there. where do you see his range?

                Comment


                  #9
                  I don't really like the 4b given your hand and if anyone calls you their range is going to be very strong given their positions.

                  I think your flop bet pretty poor as your turn bet size is very very awkward now. You need to decide before you bet if you are going for 2 streets or 3 streets, given you flop a good draw I might just go for 2 streets, betting very big on the flop and jamming the turn. This way you have most fold equity and get to put your money in at least with some equity.

                  My bet sizing would be something like this:
                  Flop (340) Bet 280, Turn (900) Jam for 870

                  Or else go with small bets and Jam, give up on river depending on what cards fall.
                  Flop (340) Bet 125, Turn (590) Bet 230, River (1050) 945 to put him to a decision.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    This really depends on dynamics, but if you're prepared to go all the way with the hand then bet ~250 now and shove any river. I don't think anyone here can tell you if that's the right play because we weren't at the table. I can certainly see villian folding QQ (his most likely holding) on a lot of river cards if he's not an idiot and you have a tight image, but it would be fairly marginal. I probably just peel a river and check/fold if I miss. As Winning! said you aren't going to get a lot of folds without 3-barrelling.

                    Pre is obviously not great. I do like the play and I tend to do this sort of thing a lot vs frequent 3betters. But I'd prefer it with a hand with blockers or with better equity vs his continuing range.
                    "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                    Comment


                      #11
                      hey guys, intresting reading on the 4 bettin with blockers, I get the principle , but doesnt 4 betting with blockers just increase our chances of getting pre-flop folds with villain? and if we get called we either hit the scare card/blocker and get no action or hit it - get action and have no idea if we're good....?? jus a thought?
                      Hence I'd generally prefer 4 betting occasionally with 89 type of hands and save the blockers for 5 betting ??

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Kie Diddy View Post
                        hey guys, intresting reading on the 4 bettin with blockers, I get the principle , but doesnt 4 betting with blockers just increase our chances of getting pre-flop folds with villain?
                        Yes and this is fine by us. We are bluffing, after all.

                        and if we get called we either hit the scare card/blocker and get no action or hit it - get action and have no idea if we're good....?? jus a thought?
                        Yes it can be tricky to play when you get called and hit. In general you will be bluff-catching if you're holding a hand like KT on a K high flop in a 4bet pot this deep.

                        Hence I'd generally prefer 4 betting occasionally with 89 type of hands and save the blockers for 5 betting ??
                        The effect of your blockers is still very good against your opponent's range for continuing vs a 4bet, even when you are 200BB+ deep. I guess the wider his calling range, the more we have to worry about RIO. Given you have a tight image I don't think it's a problem in this instance. Villain should still be folding hands like KQ and AJ - the marginal hands that put us in bad RIO spots.
                        Last edited by AndyFatBastard; 10-01-12, 20:15.
                        "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Goodluck2me View Post
                          I think I would check back the turn, take your card and make a decision on what he does there. where do you see his range?
                          Thanks for all the replys. Preflop I thought I'd picked up a live tell on opponent but tbh I'd dismissed this when he called and then called again on the turn.
                          On ranges: after his call on the flop I was thinking 1010, JJ, QQ, some one pair hands and Club draws but at all stages given my perception of opponents ability I was wary of him playing back @ me.
                          Normally I'd be betting smaller on the flop but given my holding I was just trying to take it down there and was wary of him sniffing weakness and CR'ing. In retrospect my flop sizing was bad, I'd have liked to bet bigger and jammed turn if he called and I missed.
                          As played on the turn I really wanted to jam but was aware that I'm almost never doing this with KK, AA and I didn't think I had a great stack to 3 barrel.
                          I took the weak option of checking behind, river was an offsuit 3. He checked it, I felt that I couldn't stab at it then (Mmmmm???) so I gave up on it and he won the pot.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                            I took the weak option of checking behind, river was an offsuit 3. He checked it, I felt that I couldn't stab at it then (Mmmmm???) so I gave up on it and he won the pot.
                            Don't think you can profitably bluff a blank river after checking back the turn in this hand, since he wont check a busted FD OTR much, and it's all we can potentially fold out.
                            "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                            Comment


                              #15
                              What does the Scandi look like?

                              It might be me :-)

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by DanishDynamite View Post
                                What does the Scandi look like?

                                It might be me :-)
                                It was you if you were holding 42off

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