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    underraise ruling query

    i was wonder could any1 send me a link to a set of rules that will cover these actions in a cash game been looking for a while cant find any ty
    it happened in a club i play in a few times now and we really need to clear it up.
    last night this is the way the action went.this is a 1/2 cash game
    utg limp
    co raise 16
    button allin 21
    sb calls 21
    utg reraise 100

    the raise is good for me but i really need an official rule so this argument wont hold up the game in future

    #2
    Originally posted by knokies View Post
    i was wonder could any1 send me a link to a set of rules that will cover these actions in a cash game been looking for a while cant find any ty
    it happened in a club i play in a few times now and we really need to clear it up.
    last night this is the way the action went.this is a 1/2 cash game
    utg limp
    co raise 16
    button allin 21
    sb calls 21
    utg reraise 100

    the raise is good for me but i really need an official rule so this argument wont hold up the game in future
    i dont see the problem? where is the under raising issue?

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Maddogg View Post
      i dont see the problem? where is the under raising issue?
      the button is all in for 21 and the cut off has raised to 16

      Comment


        #4
        utg cant come over the top as he has acted already.

        also if the club dont know this ruling imo better off going somewhere else.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Maddogg View Post
          i dont see the problem? where is the under raising issue?
          UTG has acted already so surely he can't be allowed to raise when the action gets back to him?

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Donk Magnet View Post
            utg cant come over the top as he has acted already.

            also if the club dont know this ruling imo better off going somewhere else.
            Utg limped for 2 so of course he can raise its 19 back to him to call that is a raise.
            I hope your not involved in a club with such brilliance as this.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
              UTG has acted already so surely he can't be allowed to raise when the action gets back to him?
              Surely the original raise to 16 re-opened the betting to utg??

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                UTG has acted already so surely he can't be allowed to raise when the action gets back to him?
                What am i missing he limped for 2 so surely hes allowed raise when its raised
                it seems to simple to even talk about?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Donk Magnet View Post
                  utg cant come over the top as he has acted already.

                  also if the club dont know this ruling imo better off going somewhere else.
                  is the utg not acting on the co raise

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by SICKPUPPY View Post
                    Utg limped for 2 so of course he can raise its 19 back to him to call that is a raise.
                    I hope your not involved in a club with such brilliance as this.
                    I'm wrong too then? I thought that if someone acts in the pot, then an underraise occurs (which the 16 to 21 is) then only people who have yet to act have all their options back?

                    If UTG raised to 4 and the same action happened, what would the ruling be?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I think utg is allowed to raise here, he only limped which means when the action gets around to him he can raise the 16eur bet. If he had originally raised to 12 for example and the co called,and the button went all in for 21 then he is not allowed to come over the top.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by SICKPUPPY View Post
                        Utg limped for 2 so of course he can raise its 19 back to him to call that is a raise.
                        I hope your not involved in a club with such brilliance as this.
                        why ur basicly saying that the guy that opens for 16 is the only 1 to bear the brunt of the under raise. utg can fold or call 19.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          UTG can do whatever he wants here, I'm surprised there is confusion as this seems a relatively simple issue

                          Comment


                            #14
                            CO is the only one affected by the underraise rule & this is only if UTG only flat calls the 21 or folds.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Donk Magnet View Post
                              why ur basicly saying that the guy that opens for 16 is the only 1 to bear the brunt of the under raise. utg can fold or call 19.
                              Utg can call fold or raise simples

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Donk Magnet View Post
                                why ur basicly saying that the guy that opens for 16 is the only 1 to bear the brunt of the under raise
                                That is right surely???

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by mfoleyAA View Post
                                  I think utg is allowed to raise here, he only limped which means when the action gets around to him he can raise the 16eur bet. If he had originally raised to 12 for example and the co called,and the button went all in for 21 then he is not allowed to come over the top.
                                  i thought was a simple rule to poker and i was a bit reluctant to put it up here but happy i did now did any1 find a link to the the ruling that i can use

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                                    UTG can do whatever he wants here, I'm surprised there is confusion as this seems a relatively simple issue
                                    The reason i'm not sure is because i was called on this ruling on 2 occasions in the Sporting Emporium and each time i argued that i had my options but i was told that once i acted, i don't have full options. Sounds like it's not a universal rule

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                      The reason i'm not sure is because i was called on this ruling on 2 occasions in the Sporting Emporium and each time i argued that i had my options but i was told that once i acted, i don't have full options. Sounds like it's not a universal rule
                                      The SE are weird tho Considering I dont play much cash, I know if this situation arises in tournament poker all options will be open to you if you are in the UTG position. I can't see any reason why this would not be the same in cash. there is no reason I can see as to why this would not be the case

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                        The reason i'm not sure is because i was called on this ruling on 2 occasions in the Sporting Emporium and each time i argued that i had my options but i was told that once i acted, i don't have full options. Sounds like it's not a universal rule
                                        surely this has to b a universal its black or white for me

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          UTG definately has all options open to him. The only guy affected by the underraise is the original raiser.

                                          Connie


                                          And yes, it is a universal thing.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                                            The SE are weird tho Considering I dont play much cash, I know if this situation arises in tournament poker all options will be open to you if you are in the UTG position. I can't see any reason why this would not be the same in cash. there is no reason I can see as to why this would not be the case
                                            Probably 4-5 years since i played cash in the SE so no idea what it's like now! It didn't make much sense to me at the time, and i remember it cost me a €1k pot v Oberon which is why it sticks in my head

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Really simple standard hand, and I'm amazed at some people getting this wrong. Of course UTG can raise again here. If I played somewhere and they were not allowed to, I would never play there again as it would be so wrong.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                So Bascially I limp with aces and there is action all round and now I cant rerasie.
                                                Your taking the mick OP for sure in this.
                                                http://www.sitnpoker.com/?amigosid=18

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Ok, what if the following occures:

                                                  Same story as above, but with hole cards........

                                                  utg limps for €2 with AA
                                                  co raises to €16 with JJ
                                                  button allin for €21 with some value hand
                                                  sb calls €21 with a small pair
                                                  utg reraises to €100

                                                  Should the utg limper be punished for trying to play tricky and just limping in with AA, by this rule?

                                                  The way I would see this is the utg limper has the option to raise in this spot because he didn't raise in the first place. I don't see why he/she gets mauled by the rule.

                                                  I definitely agree though that these types of rules can change not only from cash to tournament but also from venue to venue. Hence the reason why there should be a universal/national set of rules.
                                                  NextStopWhoKnows

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by knokies View Post
                                                    surely this has to b a universal its black or white for me
                                                    i agree seems very straightforward to me

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Four of a Kind View Post
                                                      Ok, what if the following occures:

                                                      Same story as above, but with hole cards........

                                                      utg limps for €2 with AA
                                                      co raises to €16 with JJ
                                                      button allin for €21 with some value hand
                                                      sb calls €21 with a small pair
                                                      utg reraises to €100

                                                      Should the utg limper be punished for trying to play tricky and just limping in with AA, by this rule?

                                                      The way I would see this is the utg limper has the option to raise in this spot because he didn't raise in the first place. I don't see why he/she gets mauled by the rule.

                                                      I definitely agree though that these types of rules can change not only from cash to tournament but also from venue to venue. Hence the reason why there should be a universal/national set of rules.
                                                      OK, the bolded bits above aren't quite right. It has nothing to do with whether he has previously raised or not, it is the bet amounts. If he raised to 8 initially, he would still have all his options (or even 10) the same as he does when he limps.

                                                      Also, this is a universal rule in poker, whether it be cash or tournament. If there are variations it is due to the people in charge of that place not knowing what they are talking about, nothing else.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by 5starpool View Post
                                                        OK, the bolded bits above aren't quite right. It has nothing to do with whether he has previously raised or not, it is the bet amounts. If he raised to 8 initially, he would still have all his options (or even 10) the same as he does when he limps.

                                                        Also, this is a universal rule in poker, whether it be cash or tournament. If there are variations it is due to the people in charge of that place not knowing what they are talking about, nothing else.

                                                        Exactly, sorry Dom my wording was meant to reflect this.
                                                        NextStopWhoKnows

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          im happy wit the results here thanks every1 for there imput

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by knokies View Post
                                                            i was wonder could any1 send me a link to a set of rules that will cover these actions in a cash game been looking for a while cant find any ty
                                                            it happened in a club i play in a few times now and we really need to clear it up.
                                                            last night this is the way the action went.this is a 1/2 cash game
                                                            utg limp
                                                            co raise 16
                                                            button allin 21
                                                            sb calls 21
                                                            utg reraise 100

                                                            the raise is good for me but i really need an official rule so this argument wont hold up the game in future
                                                            Where is this club?
                                                            people should be made aware of such nonsense

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                                              I'm wrong too then? I thought that if someone acts in the pot, then an underraise occurs (which the 16 to 21 is) then only people who have yet to act have all their options back?

                                                              If UTG raised to 4 and the same action happened, what would the ruling be?
                                                              Under-raise rules confuse people, people think of them as freezing the bets when they are simply ignored bets.

                                                              Using the OP as an example
                                                              utg limp
                                                              co raise 16
                                                              button allin 21
                                                              sb calls 21
                                                              utg reraise 100

                                                              Ignoring the UR
                                                              utg limp
                                                              co raise 16
                                                              sb calls
                                                              utg reraise 100

                                                              Here UTG ir re-raising the COs 16. Perfectly fine had the regardless of the underraise happening or not.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                of course utg can raise!!! the action was re-opened for 16, utg obviously has the right to act on this bet. its a completely new round of betting once it is re-opend for 16. if the button for example called the 16 he would not be able to raise the 21 as he has acted ON THE NEW ROUND OF BETTING already.

                                                                imo you should play somewhere else cos wherever it is u play obv dont know the rules

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Donk Magnet View Post
                                                                  utg cant come over the top as he has acted already.

                                                                  also if the club dont know this ruling imo better off going somewhere else.
                                                                  of course utg can raise!!! the action was re-opened for 16, utg obviously has the right to act on this bet. its a completely new round of betting once it is re-opend for 16. if the button for example called the 16 he would not be able to raise the 21 as he has acted ON THE NEW ROUND OF BETTING already.

                                                                  imo you should play somewhere else cos wherever it is u play obv dont know the rules

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by moneymilker View Post
                                                                    of course utg can raise!!! the action was re-opened for 16, utg obviously has the right to act on this bet. its a completely new round of betting once it is re-opend for 16. if the button for example called the 16 he would not be able to raise the 21 as he has acted ON THE NEW ROUND OF BETTING already.

                                                                    imo you should play somewhere else cos wherever it is u play obv dont know the rules
                                                                    i was wrong so what???
                                                                    get over it

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Donk Magnet View Post
                                                                      i was wrong so what???
                                                                      get over it
                                                                      lol
                                                                      well it was ur arrogant attitude when giving ur point that i found worthy of a reply, especially the fact it was very very very very wrong.
                                                                      learn something new everyday eh.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        How Ironic, how condescending.
                                                                        Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                        My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                        My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Thread locked. Further discussion is not going to add anything of use.

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