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Early in Warmup AA multiway
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Originally posted by jazzyfish View Posti would how you gonna balance this against good players ,,, does this mean your gonna limp raise with 55 66 77 88 910 10j QJ AT AK AND THEN RISK GETTING FLATTED and have to play week hands out of postion with a hi % of your stack out there ??? just wondering
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Guest
TBH I really do think Hatton was in fact suggesting the limp-raise pre to isolate but maybe got a little overwhelmed by all the criticism and didn't correct his mistake.
I do however think he is fighting a losing battle here, the correct play is a raise and not 3x as Hatton suggested, that is long gone, min-2.2x!
Personally the flop is a fold for me, such early stages of the tourney I think the only hands you are beating is AQ and maybe some KJ or J9 but it doubtful!
Just fold and curse your opponent on getting lucky :-)
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Originally posted by brady23 View PostTBH I really do think Hatton was in fact suggesting the limp-raise pre to isolate but maybe got a little overwhelmed by all the criticism and didn't correct his mistake.
I do however think he is fighting a losing battle here, the correct play is a raise and not 3x as Hatton suggested, that is long gone, min-2.2x!
Personally the flop is a fold for me, such early stages of the tourney I think the only hands you are beating is AQ and maybe some KJ or J9 but it doubtful!
Just fold and curse your opponent on getting lucky :-)
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Originally posted by brady23 View PostAs I said i dnt do it personally, so not really an issue for me, just seen "rickyhatton" gettin berated a bit and just thought I'd back him up by saying that. Also it's not an issue of balancing ranges here, it's about an isolated scenario early on in a tourney! So it's a low % of your stack not high and some of the hands u mentioned like 910 qj would not personally be In my range at this stage of a tourney!!!
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Originally posted by Laois Hammer View Post3x is still pretty much alive at this stage of the tourney, i think min/2.2x is way too small when the whole table is so deep, its a bit more complex than jus switching to min raise when the antes kick in
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Look all I was basically saying was that I don't think Hatton was fully understood in what he was trying to say.
I don't personally agree with limp raising so jazzyfish's posing the question of a polarized range vs a merged range isn't relevant to me! All I meant was against a select group if players on a table that you deem to be weak a limp raise can be a profitable play.
This is an isolated scenario that I don't believe would affect players perceptions of your play. I feel personally that one of the weakness's of most players including myself is to not adapt to individual situations and play hands to maximize profit and/or reduce losses!! It is something I am looking into myself cos personally the use of term " oh it was standard" is an extremely over-used term in poker!
I agree that limping to induce is not the most optimal play but it can work in situations, not personally my own style but shoving that flop would he pretty bad imo!!
Also just to mention Lapis Hammers comment, I agree my mistake that 3x is not completely dead, just not something I do unless there is a couple of limpers etc then I will increase my raise size obv but generally I just min when I am 1st to open!!
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Originally posted by brady23 View PostLook all I was basically saying was that I don't think Hatton was fully understood in what he was trying to say.
I don't personally agree with limp raising so jazzyfish's posing the question of a polarized range vs a merged range isn't relevant to me! All I meant was against a select group if players on a table that you deem to be weak a limp raise can be a profitable play.
This is an isolated scenario that I don't believe would affect players perceptions of your play. I feel personally that one of the weakness's of most players including myself is to not adapt to individual situations and play hands to maximize profit and/or reduce losses!! It is something I am looking into myself cos personally the use of term " oh it was standard" is an extremely over-used term in poker!
I agree that limping to induce is not the most optimal play but it can work in situations, not personally my own style but shoving that flop would he pretty bad imo!!
Also just to mention Lapis Hammers comment, I agree my mistake that 3x is not completely dead, just not something I do unless there is a couple of limpers etc then I will increase my raise size obv but generally I just min when I am 1st to open!!
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Originally posted by SirRickyHatton View PostSo you more or less agree with me hector?
To be honest my play is fine here. Why put a load of chips into the pot when you can float your way to the river. Possibly have to call one bet. And get to see his cards. Id always keep aces until im further into the tournament. You're not going to win a tourney with aces first few hands.
Cash game I play this totally different fwiw
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Originally posted by ArmaniJeansI like this heat - some proper music innit.
None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.
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I don't dislike Rickys thinking, obviously a bad sign for ya Ricky!! I also fold here but don't hate the limp raise. I don't think either the limp raise or 3x are horrible though so not sure why such a huge debacle really. Surprised no limp, min reraise players on ipb theory forum
Only reason I wanted to post really was to say wp CHD really
Edit: I just noticed the guy min reraised!!! I don't know if I fold here, opinions of reraising to 2100-2600?Last edited by mdoug; 17-07-12, 02:09.Go big or go homeless.
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Originally posted by mdoug View PostI don't dislike Rickys thinking, obviously a bad sign for ya Ricky!! I also fold here but don't hate the limp raise. I don't think either the limp raise or 3x are horrible though so not sure why such a huge debacle really. Surprised no limp, min reraise players on ipb theory forum
Only reason I wanted to post really was to say wp CHD really
Edit: I just noticed the guy min reraised!!! I don't know if I fold here, opinions of reraising to 2100-2600?
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Guest
Brady pretty much hit the nail on the head. I mis worded my first opinion and decided to carry on with the level. Some of you are that easy you don.t even need bait to catch you
Also great meme's chd. I laughed hard!
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Originally posted by danutpeddler View PostGood level and a bit of lol and all,
Really messes up theory threads though!
my opinion on the hand,
i tend to bet more on the flop to try and define the hand a lil bit more like 650-800 on the flop to try and find out where people are a bit better,
your spot really sucks facing the min raise and with a caller behind and i don't blame you i'd play it the same way, cos if you do peel it the guy behind will prob call too, and you have like 5.5k pot on the turn and there is no turn card we can really be all that thrilled about about maybe a 4 and maybe an Ace
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Some funny shtuff going on in this thread. Hatton either a master creative writer (P=0.0001) or a dope (P= 0.9999) .
Back to El Strategum, certainly making a larger raise here pre. If you raise 3x and get one caller, it's a veritable invitation for 6 more players to join in.
Given deep stacks, people call 3x raise with waaay to wide a rang for your liking in this spot.
Raising 5x pretty likely to get you one (or even 2) caller(s), which is what you want.
..Keep going Ricky, sure if it turns out to be retarded, call it a level!
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Originally posted by loopers View PostSome funny shtuff going on in this thread. Hatton either a master creative writer (P=0.0001) or a dope (P= 0.9999) .
Back to El Strategum, certainly making a larger raise here pre. If you raise 3x and get one caller, it's a veritable invitation for 6 more players to join in.
Given deep stacks, people call 3x raise with waaay to wide a rang for your liking in this spot.
Raising 5x pretty likely to get you one (or even 2) caller(s), which is what you want.
..Keep going Ricky, sure if it turns out to be retarded, call it a level!
edit to add my standard raise would be 2.5x here with my full range of hands im openingLast edited by chips1234; 18-07-12, 13:18.
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Originally posted by SirRickyHatton View PostTheres that many bad players at the start of these tournies id normally just flat AA early on and keep the pot small unless you hit/isolate one guy. Bit yeh in your position I muck. You could be so far ahead and at the same time so far behind.
When what i meant to say was this early on, i personally don't like playing big pots. Anyhow. I would flat pre with the intent of reraising to isolate one player. I obviously forgot to put in the part where i'm fully intending to reraise. Anyone who thinks i'm happy to go to the flop with 5 players, just so i can keep the pot small is deluded! It was clearly a level.
Then in op's position i muck.
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Originally posted by SirRickyHatton View PostOk i said this.
When what i meant to say was this early on, i personally don't like playing big pots. Anyhow. I would flat pre with the intent of reraising to isolate one player. I obviously forgot to put in the part where i'm fully intending to reraise. Anyone who thinks i'm happy to go to the flop with 5 players, just so i can keep the pot small is deluded! It was clearly a level.
Then in op's position i muck.
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Originally posted by SirRickyHatton View PostOk i said this.
When what i meant to say was this early on, i personally don't like playing big pots. Anyhow. I would flat pre with the intent of reraising to isolate one player. I obviously forgot to put in the part where i'm fully intending to reraise. Anyone who thinks i'm happy to go to the flop with 5 players, just so i can keep the pot small is deluded! It was clearly a level.
Then in op's position i muck.
To look strong or weak?
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Originally posted by Dice75 View PostWhy do you flat to reraise utg.
To look strong or weak?
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Originally posted by SirRickyHatton View PostYou don't muck? Given op's position?
The argument for limp/reraising falls down on a few fronts that might of already be mentioned. The big ones being that it is almost impossible to balance our limp/raise range profitably. There are alot of players on the Irish circuit who limp/raise from early position and it is easy to spot and adjust against.
We have the best hand and will always have big equity in any pot, heads up or multiway. People seem to make these hands a dichotomy between winning or losing a big pot. There is no problem with keeping pots small post flop. By opening for a raise pre flop, we take the lead in the pot, which in turn makes it easier to dictate the pot size post flop.
On a flop like this, I would often check call. The problem with check calling is, that we have massively under-repped our hand and will almost always have to check/call another street if not both. Of course this can work against an aggressive player who will see your check/call as weak and barrel turn and rivers with a worse hand.
So, I think its close as to what to do post flop but a bet/fold seems to be the best line to take. There will be times that we fold the best hand here. However its unlikely that we get raised on this flop by a worse hand(from a competent player) and we get tons of value from lots of worse hands calling us on the flop and possibly turn and river.
Its not really close as to pre flop. The optimal and most balanced play is to open. As to the size anything from a min to 3.5x is fine and only really depends on what size you like to open to all the time.
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Originally posted by loopers View PostSome funny shtuff going on in this thread. Hatton either a master creative writer (P=0.0001) or a dope (P= 0.9999) .
Back to El Strategum, certainly making a larger raise here pre. If you raise 3x and get one caller, it's a veritable invitation for 6 more players to join in.
Given deep stacks, people call 3x raise with waaay to wide a rang for your liking in this spot.
Raising 5x pretty likely to get you one (or even 2) caller(s), which is what you want.
..Keep going Ricky, sure if it turns out to be retarded, call it a level!
It's generally good to keep your raises the same size whether you have AA or if you're just stealing the blinds. Otherwise people will start to figure out what your bet sizings mean. Keeping the bet size smaller than 3x allows gives us a better price to steal the blinds, especially in later levels where it's hugely important with antes in play. It also allows us to get away cheaply when someone plays back at us.
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Originally posted by SirRickyHatton View PostIf im honest. Anytime im playing tournament poker, im thinking about my opponent (state the obvious). In this situation early on, i can be pretty sure a lot of the guys are idiots. You have no info on them and it's not live so you obviously can't read them. In this situation i know if i raise i will get 4+ callers. (Alot of the time the board will miss and you'll be forced to fold. As has happened in op's hand. Now im not stupid. I do realise some of the time you will hit and get paid big possibly.) Now obviously that's great considering we have the best hand in poker. But it's just not the way i play it. Now if it's deep into the tourney and i have some info on the players etc then of course i would open raise pre. Meh, if you think my play is wrong fine but i do ok in tournies.
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Originally posted by KK82 View PostWould you consider a flop of 27J as you missing? You realise he had AA, right? It's probably harder to get paid if he hits an A.
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Originally posted by chips1234 View Postraising 5x here is terrible were utg and just gonna end up building a big pot oop, 3x is fine imo
Raising 5x ain't crazy this early in a tourney - you'll probably get one caller or maybe 2, which is exactly how you want to be playing your AA, no?
Where this is a case against this 5x sizing of course is in relation to your open-size becoming a pattern which gives a tell as to the strength of your hand, as KK82 pointed out....
Originally posted by KK82 View Post
It's generally good to keep your raises the same size whether you have AA or if you're just stealing the blinds. Otherwise people will start to figure out what your bet sizings mean. Keeping the bet size smaller than 3x allows gives us a better price to steal the blinds, especially in later levels where it's hugely important with antes in play. It also allows us to get away cheaply when someone plays back at us.
It's v early in the tournament, v unlikely anybody has history on you.
So, if this goes to showdown, people notice the massive open you made with your AA.... then in an hour, when you open 2.25x UTG nobody puts you on KK or AA... kind of garbled logic, but it works imo.
To be clear, this is an exceptional case and in general my open sizes will be consistent across my range, varying only w/ stage of the tournament and position rel. to blinds.
(Summary - )
I think the 4-5x open is def preferable to 3x in this spot though, 'cos
1) It's more likely to get you playing your AA v 1 or 2 opponents. (yuss, money!)
2) It could actually work in your favour that people see the big raise, providing a 'lil deception when you make a standard open w/ your monsters later on. (yuss, mindfuck money!)
Just ma thoughts, sorry to be so verbose!
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Originally posted by SirRickyHatton View PostTbh on reading the forum, your one of the biggest troll retards on it. Jog on
Also spouting a load of garbage on a thread and then, when you get called out for being a dope you try to pass it off as a level/troll post is a sign of a proper cabbage.
But you amuse me!
Jog on!
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Originally posted by Hectorjelly View PostI love the saying, walk on, or jog on. If said in a northern accent its really frightening.
Neither I would class as frightening though
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Surprised there hasn't been more discussion regarding c/c'ing flop as opposed to leading mutliway. I'm not usually one for playing hands passively but think check/calling flop here is ok.
Think checking flop completely under reps our hand and induces almost all Qx hands to bet flop once you give up the lead. It also allows you to fold for the minimum should the flop go something like, hero checks, bet from player behind, c/r from sb or bb.
I check/call and reassess turn ,often with the intention of calling down all non K/Q/J turns as well. Think villain might often take the standard line of checking back Qx hands on turn while calling the river lighter when we value bet AA to a checked turn given our line.
Slightly favour this line as opposed to betting flop as it leads to awkward spots like this one. How do we play all turns should we get flatted behind? Think a decent villain puts us in a tough spot as they may bluff turn and river with missed draws as well as made hands putting us under pressure for our full stack.
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Yeah I think in this particular instance lots to be said for check calling the flop for a few different reasons. What hands does it look like we can have here if we check call the flop?
It gets us a tiny bit closer to showdown (Im not saying we are going to get there!) BUT I do think this line makes it much harder for us to be bluffed. Lastly we can possibly end up against a much weaker range as our hand is now (although not really #in so far as it is not very strong!# underepped).
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again ilkely c/c flop here mostly to let "standard players" happily barrell kq/aq, however as played; i still prob call though this said I accept folding maybe better..
my reason for calling is that in my experience of lower buy-in MTT's ($1-$10) i'm constantly surprised to see how often villains re-pop KQ/AQ here. Hence I'm likely c/calling a brick turn and evaluaitng river.. obv maybe adjustments are needed for what is likley a higher level..
do we think villain shuts down on turn with KQ?
shuts down on river with AQ?...allowing us to get away later??
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Thread obv had a subconscious effect on me.......
SPOILERPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 22 Tournament, 20/40 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker Hand Converter from PokerConverter.com
saw flop | saw showdown
UTG (t9710)
UTG+1 (t9090)
MP1 (t8740)
Hero (MP2) (t9865)
MP3 (t9795)
CO (t9528)
Button (t11620)
SB (t10207)
BB (t11445)
Hero's M: 164.42
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A, A
8 folds
Total pot: t40
Results:
BB didn't show
Outcome: BB won t40
SPOILERPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 22 Tournament, 20/40 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker Hand Converter from PokerConverter.com
saw flop | saw showdown
MP3 (t9750)
CO (t9190)
Button (t8840)
Hero (SB) (t9825)
BB (t9675)
UTG (t9648)
UTG+1 (t11620)
MP1 (t10107)
MP2 (t11345)
Hero's M: 163.75
Preflop: Hero is SB with K, K
2 folds, MP1 bets t140, MP2 calls t140, 5 folds
Flop: (t340) 5, 9, J (2 players)
MP1 bets t187, MP2 calls t187
Turn: (t714) 5 (2 players)
MP1 bets t392, MP2 calls t392
River: (t1498) 9 (2 players)
MP1 bets t823, MP2 raises to t2160, MP1 calls t1337
Total pot: t5818
Main pot: t5818 between MP1 and MP2, shared by MP1 and MP2 (t2909)
Results:
MP1 had Q, Q (two pair, Queens and nines).
MP2 had Q, Q (two pair, Queens and nines).
Outcome: MP1 won t2909, MP2 won t2909Last edited by Dice75; 22-07-12, 19:13.
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