Irish Poker Boards
Register Arcade FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Irish Poker Boards > Poker > Poker Theory, Strategy and Rulings > Omaha, Stud and Other Variants
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-03-10, 21:54   #1
Valor
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 731
Deep 5/10 big draw

$5/$10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by http://weaktight.com/

Stacks:
UTG $602.70
UTG+1 $972.50
CO $1,239.30
BTN $2,479.80
SB $267
Hero (BB) $2,441.50

Pre-Flop: ($15, 6 players) Hero is BB 9s Ts Ad Kd
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $20, CO calls $20, BTN calls $20, 1 fold, Hero calls $10

Flop: 7d Jh Qd ($85, 4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, BTN bets $60, Hero raises to $262, UTG+1 folds, CO folds, BTN calls $202

Turn: 3h ($609, 2 players)
Hero $2197 effective stacks


Villain is 40/27 over a few hundred hands, 3 bets alot pre, hates to fold pre. dont have too many postflop reads...he does haev a very high wtsd.
I doubled thru him in 3 bet pot when we both had trips, it was a pretty standard hand

The other 2 guys in the pot are both fishy, fwiw


If I did have a set, I think I would check the turn alot, because betting will lead to a huge amount of painful river spots...that said, is check raising here a good line? Is betting better?
Can I make him fold any value hands by check raising ?
Worst case scenario I'm 35% against a set with a fd
Valor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-10, 00:12   #2
ianmc38
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: 上海
Posts: 1,181
On the flop check raising is pretty standard, I think he folds a ton and you're a favourite against a set (I think). I think he can definitely fold value hands. QJ is a pretty easy fold, as is Q7/J7. Whether he folds 77 is hard to know, I assume JJ and QQ are just calling.

On the turn, it's a tricky enough spot because I think when he flats the flop he's waiting for a safe turn card alot of the time. It's unlikely he has a draw unless he has a lower wrap with fd, so I think the bottom of his range is 77. Sure when you bet and get it in you'll still have good equity, but i'm not sure it's the correct play.

The only problem with checking is I hate check calling and check raising. If we c/c and hit on the river, it's hard for us to get paid. If we check raise, he's snapping us with his value range (and i think if he bets the turn the majority of his bets will be with the higher end of his range)
__________________
Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.
ianmc38 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-10, 01:14   #3
Valor
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 731
So your conclusion is that its an awkward spot and you dont know what to do?

Fwiw, I'm a favourite 55/45 over a naked set on the flop, and the turn is exactly 50/50 flip, so getting it in vs that is clearly good with the overlay

I certainly dont think 77 is the bottom of his range by any means, hes a pretty loose player who hates to fold, he can peel this deep in position with alot of hands IMO
Valor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-10, 01:19   #4
cardshark202
Member
 
cardshark202's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,066
It looks to me like a bet call as I don't think he will expect you to go for a c/r with a set.
cardshark202 is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks From:
Old 10-03-10, 01:29   #5
smoothcall
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,167
Check Raise is the worst option, I can't see him bet folding very often. You say you would check a set alot of the time but you'd certainly be an acception to the standard players line then. Nearly everyone would just bet pot with a set here. So if I was him I would nearly call my entire range I bet with .

It's a bet call I reckon , that would certainly be my standard line.

Your giving him way to strong a range Ian imo. He can easily be pealing with worse draws, two pair hands with other draws. With it so deep and such a drawy board, he can easily peel in position with a wide~ish range, well I would anyway.
smoothcall is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Thanks From:
Old 10-03-10, 09:44   #6
ianmc38
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: 上海
Posts: 1,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valor View Post
So your conclusion is that its an awkward spot and you dont know what to do?

Fwiw, I'm a favourite 55/45 over a naked set on the flop, and the turn is exactly 50/50 flip, so getting it in vs that is clearly good with the overlay

I certainly dont think 77 is the bottom of his range by any means, hes a pretty loose player who hates to fold, he can peel this deep in position with alot of hands IMO
If he is calling the flop with a worse hand than 77 for value, i'd say he is bet folding the turn a tiny % of the time. I certainly would't expect him to call the flop with QJ/Q7 and then bet fold that turn, so no i dont think a check raise will ever get him off a hand that he is betting for value on the turn.
__________________
Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.
ianmc38 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-10, 16:45   #7
Gimmeabreak
Chief Tipster
 
Gimmeabreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7,252
if we bomb say 580 on the turn the turn and he calls, what are we doing on a blank, say 2s river?
Gimmeabreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-10, 21:38   #8
Valor
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 731
Turn: 3h ($609, 2 players)
Hero Bets $540, Viallin calls $540 after like 10 seconds thinking

River: 2s (1689, 2 players)
Hero?

or

River 3h (1689, 2 players)

or

river Js (1689, 2 players)


Whats my line on all of these?
Valor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-10, 22:39   #9
Gimmeabreak
Chief Tipster
 
Gimmeabreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7,252
well the 3h fell on the turn btw.

I bomb all 3 rivers as described
Gimmeabreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-10, 23:39   #10
Valor
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 731
I'm not sure if I should bluff hearts, I think a solid part of his turn calling but not shoving range will be like JKT with hearts or so

I think pairing non hearts and low blanks and 7's and probably J and Q are all ok to bluff though
Valor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-10, 01:07   #11
ianmc38
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: 上海
Posts: 1,181
If he just flats the turn, I'd be bombing most rivers, but definitely not hearts.
__________________
Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.
ianmc38 is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks From:
Old 11-03-10, 06:15   #12
eagle eye
Should've gone to Specsavers
 
eagle eye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Slowly making my way toward the inevitable mortal ending
Posts: 5,180
I don't play at this level online but from what you say about his wtsd I like check/raise. I am not putting money in the pot on the turn that is going to be flat called and have possibly no play on the river without hitting. I have no problem getting it all in on the turn with this massive draw but its either a smaller pot or it will be very expensive for him to see the river.
__________________
'Mental Toughness is doing the right thing for the team when it's not the best thing for you' - Bill Belichick
eagle eye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-10, 09:18   #13
smoothcall
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,167
Eagle read above why we don't like the Check raise. We don't think we have much fold equity and altough it's probably a winning play , you're giving up the oppurtunity to make a more profitable play.

I think Ian explains it best, Id fire near all rivers bar the hearts. Id prob bet about 1100 ish too, even 1000 ish . Don't think theres any need for more than that.
smoothcall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-10, 09:34   #14
Aya14
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,234
Does he backdoor hearts enough not to smack a bet on a heart river?
I ask assuming we check call the turn?
Aya14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-10, 11:28   #15
eagle eye
Should've gone to Specsavers
 
eagle eye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Slowly making my way toward the inevitable mortal ending
Posts: 5,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothcall View Post
Eagle read above why we don't like the Check raise. We don't think we have much fold equity and altough it's probably a winning play , you're giving up the oppurtunity to make a more profitable play.

I think Ian explains it best, Id fire near all rivers bar the hearts. Id prob bet about 1100 ish too, even 1000 ish . Don't think theres any need for more than that.
Just to make it clear, I'm in here to understand this, but I just don't get it, if we blank the river and this guy has a very high wtsd then surely we can't get him off lets say two pair, and you say that you are backing out if a heart drops.

I'm missing something here, we don't have anything but we have massive draws, am I right?

Bascially I can't see how you make this profitable by check calling the turn against a 'showdown station' for want of a better expression?

As the op said, at worst he is 35% against a set but this guy sees it all the way with 2p+ most likely and a blank river means he is certainly calling, only the hearts might stop him actually if he hasn't backdoored it himself.

If you bet/call and don't make it, don't you really have to give up on the river?
If you check/call and don't make it, don't you have to give up again?

Are you saying that its more profitable to just get there and get called when you make it on the river?

Hope thats not too confusing, I'm just really trying to understand it.
__________________
'Mental Toughness is doing the right thing for the team when it's not the best thing for you' - Bill Belichick
eagle eye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-10, 11:44   #16
smoothcall
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,167
The advantages of betting :

There is a strong possibilty he is calling on the flop to see how the turn pans out. He will often call the flop and give up on a lot of turns with hands like two pairs and draws. So betting the turn changes these 50 /50 s into 100% wins.

Other hands he call's the turn with our the stronger hands , like sets waiting for blanks which we will then get it in on the turn with and have good equity, near 50%.

You seem to be most worried about not beeing able to play the river. Well betting the turn defines are range to be more made hands than draw hands, well that is how it appears to the villian. So betting all pair the board cards and bricks, which aren't hearts should be a proftiable play as his hand looks like a draw also now.

There is of course the posibility he is just calling down with two pair hands or might even hit two pair up on the river and hero call (unlikely with his range). But if you look at this in the overall view of the hand rather than just the river it's still a more profitable way to play the hand.

The disadvantages of checking:

If you check raise as we said earlier I don't think you are gaining much in FE. So with out even a pair in your hand I dont like it, If you had Q instead of 9 I'd prefer this play as it gives you alot more equity vs draws.

If you check and he checks behind , it's very hard for you to represent a big made hand now . He wil be likely to call you very light, hence you have to check fold alot.

If it goes check check and you hit, I guess you will probably get a call from lower flush and will be chopping alot of your straight hands as his range will now be made up primarily of draws.

bit rambly but hope it helps,
smoothcall is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Thanks From:
Old 12-03-10, 00:16   #17
Valor
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 731
My main inquiry was to whether I have more folding equity vs his range of weaker made hands by betting or checking and raising, and I think its pretty clear betting is better for a variety of reasons, it leaves us with alot more options than checking

I did check raise and lost to JJ56, exactly 50/50
Valor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  Irish Poker Boards > Poker > Poker Theory, Strategy and Rulings > Omaha, Stud and Other Variants

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 02:34.