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two wierd MTT spots

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    two wierd MTT spots

    Both hands from same tourney. £100 FO 20,000 starting stack, ~120 runners

    Hand 1.

    Blinds 150/300

    I late reg'd so have only been at the table for one orbit havign played one hand where I called a raise with 33, flopped a set multi-way, got called on two steets and then just flatted a river lead when a back door flush got there- which he had

    UTG+1 (~25k): limps 300
    UTG+2 (~20k): limps 300
    MP1: Raises to 3000
    I'm in SB with AK off and ~ 12k ...

    Haven't played with the lad who made it 3k before, felt like I didn't really have any FE and wasn't keen to race so early but dumping seems puke, as does flatting oop even with 40bb???

    Hand 2:

    blinds 1000/2000 28 left, 12 paid, avg ~ 85000

    Cut-off (45k) opens 6000
    I flat on the button with TT (100k)
    SB shoves for 30k
    Cut-off shoves

    I flatted cos his 3x open seemed weird as hed been 2x ing so was happy enough to play in posiition and evaluate the flop and I was happy to call off versus the SB or BB HU.
    The cut-off seemed reluctant to put in his chips and I was 99.9% sure he wasn't acing so could take AA/KK/QQ out of his range, SB is a decent player and is never going to have an airball here, ever, but could have suited broadway & all pairs .

    The answer here might be one for pokerstove (i'm getting ~ 2/1), but the broader question is even if we decide this is slightly + EV to call is it too early too be risking half your stack 3 way with only 6 k invested or is 25 or so players left in a tourney where only 1st/2nd matters the time push any spot you think you have?

    Cheers

    #2
    Hand 1 is never a flat ever it's a shove or fold, your investing 25% of your stack oop with a hand that doesn't flop too well, not at home but can't run stove but it's a shove imo

    Hand 2 as played I might fold but I think I just shove pre depending in bb stack but if your sub 30bbs effective, shove and run around high 5ing everyone

    Comment


      #3
      Hand 1 - easy shove. It's not always a race here, in fact far from it. No reason to flat call imo and I wouldn't be surprised if shove got through.

      Hand 2 - Personally, I'd fold without knowing the numbers. You have a healthy stack and don't have to get involved here even though you may well have the best hand pre. Your preflop play and reasoning for the hand looks spot on though.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by brady23 View Post
        Hand 1 is never a flat ever it's a shove or fold, your investing 25% of your stack oop with a hand that doesn't flop too well, not at home but can't run stove but it's a shove imo

        Hand 2 as played I might fold but I think I just shove pre depending in bb stack but if your sub 30bbs effective, shove and run around high 5ing everyone
        dont understand why shove in a hand 2 pre ? all your doing is folding out hand s you dominate, like 55 66 77 88 are never calling a 30 bb shove, but will shove over it

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by jazzyfish View Post
          dont understand why shove in a hand 2 pre ? all your doing is folding out hand s you dominate, like 55 66 77 88 are never calling a 30 bb shove, but will shove over it
          So you want to flat tens? The hand doesn't exactly flop overly well imo and calling and folding to a Cbet on a Kxx Axx Qxx Jxx board seems a bit weak when the opener is 22bbs effective. Also 3b/c say 13k etc looks much stronger, by shoving I think your range is way more merged and more likely to get a lighter call. 3b/c seems ok if you have a 3b/f range but you never do vs a 3x open imo.
          There is no scenario here where a shove isn't profitable and I would say it's more efficient than a flat

          Comment


            #6
            Hand 1: I don't mind folding or shoving. I don't think either can be too bad.

            Hand 2: Think pretty easy 3/bet call. I reckon I make it like 14k.

            I probably call off now too tbh. I think we do well against both ranges here from LP to make this a call.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by brady23 View Post
              So you want to flat tens? The hand doesn't exactly flop overly well imo and calling and folding to a Cbet on a Kxx Axx Qxx Jxx board seems a bit weak when the opener is 22bbs effective. Also 3b/c say 13k etc looks much stronger, by shoving I think your range is way more merged and more likely to get a lighter call. 3b/c seems ok if you have a 3b/f range but you never do vs a 3x open imo.
              There is no scenario here where a shove isn't profitable and I would say it's more efficient than a flat
              As if you ever need to be balanced here in a live 100 freezeout versus randoms. There is probably zero people in the field capable of exploiting you.

              Think we got to give people room to spew here for sure.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                As if you ever need to be balanced here in a live 100 freezeout versus randoms. There is probably zero people in the field capable of exploiting you.

                Think we got to give people room to spew here for sure.
                Don't disagree with you, just an observation is all, the idea of flatting is bad imo I don't mind a 3b/c but I think a shove is totally fine

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                  Don't disagree with you, just an observation is all, the idea of flatting is bad imo I don't mind a 3b/c but I think a shove is totally fine
                  Yeah, i'm not flatting either.

                  For me its 3-bet/shove/flat in order of preference.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Hand 1 = shoveaments

                    Hand 2 = flatting pre is fine if your plan is to bait out one of the blinds to shove and then snap it off ( stack sizes are perfect for it). As played its a tough one. The cut off probably realises that SB is jamming light so can reship with a really high % of his range knowing you need to be really strong to call.i think it's pretty close as it is. I can make a convincing argument for calling but with 2 players all in there are just too many overs to fade. I fold and feel disgruntled when cards are turned over. I call with QQ

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Hand 1 - Raise it, might give you a shred more fold equity against some pairs esp against a player whos 10x ing.

                      Hand 2 - Call for sure, dont think the flat is that bad

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                        So you want to flat tens? The hand doesn't exactly flop overly well imo and calling and folding to a Cbet on a Kxx Axx Qxx Jxx board seems a bit weak when the opener is 22bbs effective. Also 3b/c say 13k etc looks much stronger, by shoving I think your range is way more merged and more likely to get a lighter call. 3b/c seems ok if you have a 3b/f range but you never do vs a 3x open imo.
                        There is no scenario here where a shove isn't profitable and I would say it's more efficient than a flat
                        i miss read the hand didnt notice the 3x pre hard to say what id do now with out knowing stack of bb

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by jazzyfish View Post
                          i miss read the hand didnt notice the 3x pre hard to say what id do now with out knowing stack of bb
                          Yeah I thought you might have alright, I know you like the raise btn so was kinda confused

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Hand 1 is probably a shove. Feels a bit disgusting though. I'm presuming the type of player who is 10x'ing is never going to fold anything if you 3bet small. Just have to get it in and you will be flipping the majority of the time.

                            Hand 2 is a snap call as played. It's not particularly close either against any reasonable ranges with the price you are getting.

                            The call is bad if you aren't snapping now. I'd prefer a small 3bet and call a shove vs the majority of people. Would need more reads before doing anything different.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by jazzyfish View Post
                              i miss read the hand didnt notice the 3x pre hard to say what id do now with out knowing stack of bb
                              Hand 2: The BB only had ~15k so although it may have been a little optimistic part of me was hoping the SB would fold, the BB would ship , original raiser would flat (which at this level is pretty likely in my view with lot of hands) then I could reshove, taking the dead money and being HU versus a likely weak hand...

                              Comment

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