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    Folding AA??

    Hi, being following forum lately and decided to post this hand i ran into tonight.
    Running second in tourney, came up against chip leader in a flip.

    PokerStars Hand #105357052887: Tournament #800775029, $2.28+$0.22 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2013/10/11 21:48:18 WET [2013/10/11 16:48:18 ET]
    Table '800775029 4' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
    Seat 1: tomika22 (2660 in chips)
    Seat 2: Allgäu-Girl (1430 in chips)
    Seat 4: The Smooth77 (3635 in chips)
    Seat 5: TheBigFind (13271 in chips)
    Seat 6: stefanellDSR (1866 in chips)
    Seat 7: Masso1979 (13639 in chips)
    Seat 8: Dusit555 (12663 in chips)
    Seat 9: czarnuchh (1895 in chips)
    tomika22: posts the ante 25
    Allgäu-Girl: posts the ante 25
    The Smooth77: posts the ante 25
    TheBigFind: posts the ante 25
    stefanellDSR: posts the ante 25
    Masso1979: posts the ante 25
    Dusit555: posts the ante 25
    czarnuchh: posts the ante 25
    The Smooth77: posts small blind 125
    TheBigFind: posts big blind 250
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to TheBigFind [As Ah]
    stefanellDSR: raises 1591 to 1841 and is all-in
    Masso1979: raises 11773 to 13614 and is all-in
    Dusit555: folds
    czarnuchh: folds
    tomika22: folds
    Allgäu-Girl: folds
    The Smooth77: folds
    TheBigFind: calls 12996 and is all-in
    Uncalled bet (368) returned to Masso1979
    *** FLOP *** [3h 2c Jc]
    *** TURN *** [3h 2c Jc] [Qs]
    *** RIVER *** [3h 2c Jc Qs] [2s]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    TheBigFind: shows [As Ah] (two pair, Aces and Deuces)
    Masso1979: shows [Qd Qc] (a full house, Queens full of Deuces)
    Masso1979 collected 22810 from side pot
    stefanellDSR: shows [7d 7c] (two pair, Sevens and Deuces)
    Masso1979 collected 5848 from main pot
    TheBigFind finished the tournament in 25th place
    stefanellDSR finished the tournament in 26th place
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 28658 Main pot 5848. Side pot 22810. | Rake 0
    Board [3h 2c Jc Qs 2s]
    Seat 1: tomika22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 2: Allgäu-Girl (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: The Smooth77 (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 5: TheBigFind (big blind) showed [As Ah] and lost with two pair, Aces and Deuces
    Seat 6: stefanellDSR showed [7d 7c] and lost with two pair, Sevens and Deuces
    Seat 7: Masso1979 showed [Qd Qc] and won (28658) with a full house, Queens full of Deuces
    Seat 8: Dusit555 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: czarnuchh folded before Flop (didn't bet)

    Obviously wrong call, i did think about folding tho, lol.
    I suppose what i'm asking is that i am a novice at this and wonder would this be an easy enough fold to an experienced player?

    #2
    Originally posted by TheBigFind View Post
    Hi, being following forum lately and decided to post this hand i ran into tonight.
    Running second in tourney, came up against chip leader in a flip.

    PokerStars Hand #105357052887: Tournament #800775029, $2.28+$0.22 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2013/10/11 21:48:18 WET [2013/10/11 16:48:18 ET]
    Table '800775029 4' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
    Seat 1: tomika22 (2660 in chips)
    Seat 2: Allgäu-Girl (1430 in chips)
    Seat 4: The Smooth77 (3635 in chips)
    Seat 5: TheBigFind (13271 in chips)
    Seat 6: stefanellDSR (1866 in chips)
    Seat 7: Masso1979 (13639 in chips)
    Seat 8: Dusit555 (12663 in chips)
    Seat 9: czarnuchh (1895 in chips)
    tomika22: posts the ante 25
    Allgäu-Girl: posts the ante 25
    The Smooth77: posts the ante 25
    TheBigFind: posts the ante 25
    stefanellDSR: posts the ante 25
    Masso1979: posts the ante 25
    Dusit555: posts the ante 25
    czarnuchh: posts the ante 25
    The Smooth77: posts small blind 125
    TheBigFind: posts big blind 250
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to TheBigFind [As Ah]
    stefanellDSR: raises 1591 to 1841 and is all-in
    Masso1979: raises 11773 to 13614 and is all-in
    Dusit555: folds
    czarnuchh: folds
    tomika22: folds
    Allgäu-Girl: folds
    The Smooth77: folds
    TheBigFind: calls 12996 and is all-in
    Uncalled bet (368) returned to Masso1979
    *** FLOP *** [3h 2c Jc]
    *** TURN *** [3h 2c Jc] [Qs]
    *** RIVER *** [3h 2c Jc Qs] [2s]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    TheBigFind: shows [As Ah] (two pair, Aces and Deuces)
    Masso1979: shows [Qd Qc] (a full house, Queens full of Deuces)
    Masso1979 collected 22810 from side pot
    stefanellDSR: shows [7d 7c] (two pair, Sevens and Deuces)
    Masso1979 collected 5848 from main pot
    TheBigFind finished the tournament in 25th place
    stefanellDSR finished the tournament in 26th place
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 28658 Main pot 5848. Side pot 22810. | Rake 0
    Board [3h 2c Jc Qs 2s]
    Seat 1: tomika22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 2: Allgäu-Girl (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: The Smooth77 (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 5: TheBigFind (big blind) showed [As Ah] and lost with two pair, Aces and Deuces
    Seat 6: stefanellDSR showed [7d 7c] and lost with two pair, Sevens and Deuces
    Seat 7: Masso1979 showed [Qd Qc] and won (28658) with a full house, Queens full of Deuces
    Seat 8: Dusit555 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: czarnuchh folded before Flop (didn't bet)

    Obviously wrong call, i did think about folding tho, lol.
    I suppose what i'm asking is that i am a novice at this and wonder would this be an easy enough fold to an experienced player?
    Anyone who contemplates folding here for even a nano second, should never play poker again. If you didn't snap call him, well then you slowrolled him.

    Comment


      #3
      Also that is not a flip

      Comment


        #4

        Comment


          #5
          I quickly went through the hand and said to myself "WTF" so went back over the hand thinking I missed something but lol no, obviously this is a joke for 1st post, stop playing poker right now if you are serious.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by TheBigFind View Post
            Hi, being following forum lately and decided to post this hand i ran into tonight.
            Running second in tourney, came up against chip leader in a flip.



            Obviously wrong call, i did think about folding tho, lol.
            I suppose what i'm asking is that i am a novice at this and wonder would this be an easy enough fold to an experienced player?
            In all fairness before ye all start taking the piss, he did say he was a novice and this forum is to help lads like himself. How the fuck is he meant to learn anything if he gets slagged. prob never post again and learn nothing!
            Her sky-ness
            © 5starpool

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Michelle SatNav View Post
              In all fairness before ye all start taking the piss, he did say he was a novice and this forum is to help lads like himself. How the fuck is he meant to learn anything if he gets slagged. prob never post again and learn nothing!
              post is clearly a pisstake(well at least i really hope it is)



              SPOILER

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by chips1234 View Post
                post is clearly a pisstake(well at least i really hope it is)



                SPOILER
                my post is not a piss take no??
                Her sky-ness
                © 5starpool

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Michelle SatNav View Post
                  my post is not a piss take no??
                  OP i meant not yours obv

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Easy fold against the chip leader, they always win.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by chips1234 View Post
                      OP i meant not yours obv
                      you quoted mine with an ape having a W**K lol I got parnoid ffs!
                      Her sky-ness
                      © 5starpool

                      Comment


                        #12
                        If there was action on the flop, turn and river, I could understand you asking should AA be a fold but never ever fold AA pre flop. Pick a different hand you are unsure about with action and ask then cos some people on here give good advice. Don't ask about folding the nuts pre flop

                        Edit: AA still isn't a fold on this board even with action

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by dobman88 View Post
                          If there was action on the flop, turn and river, I could understand you asking should AA be a fold but never ever fold AA pre flop. Pick a different hand you are unsure about with action and ask then cos some people on here give good advice. Don't ask about folding the nuts pre flop

                          Edit: AA still isn't a fold on this board even with action
                          Never say never. Not in this spot but if this were a FT of a satelite with 8 tickets up for grabs it would be a fold.

                          I remember Flipper posting in the old place about folding AA on a FT something like 4 handed to ladder (cant find it but remember thinking it was redic)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                            Never say never. Not in this spot but if this were a FT of a satelite with 8 tickets up for grabs it would be a fold.

                            I remember Flipper posting in the old place about folding AA on a FT something like 4 handed to ladder (cant find it but remember thinking it was redic)
                            Yeah i was gonna mention a situation like a satty but thought it was irrelevant to this situation so didnt bother. Obviously there is probably 1 spot in 1000 that you fold AA pre, this aint 1 of em.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Thanks.
                              So my action was right, just my question was wrong.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                Never say never. Not in this spot but if this were a FT of a satelite with 8 tickets up for grabs it would be a fold
                                Was just going post this myself, I have folded AA pre in a sat spot before where I was more or less guaranteed a ticket, it was actually an IPC sat in 2005 in limerick, I think, nd ended up finishing 5th in the IPC (brag) , so worked out to a certain extent.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by TheBigFind View Post
                                  Thanks.
                                  So my action was right, just my question was wrong.
                                  Yes,,, your thinking afterwards was wrong.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                                    Yes,,, your thinking afterwards was wrong.
                                    Its hard not to when it doesnt go your way !

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by TheBigFind View Post
                                      Thanks.
                                      So my action was right, just my question was wrong.
                                      Yes, your action is perfect. The whole hand was standard imo. Nothing you can do when they all go in pre.

                                      Better luck next time

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Save them for later
                                        "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by TheBigFind View Post
                                          Thanks.
                                          So my action was right, just my question was wrong.
                                          Look, when we were all new to the game, we all questioned ourselves in many spots that would be simple decisions for us today. In time, you will learn that you had a simple decision here, and that was to get your chips in as fast as you could!!
                                          The fact that he hit a Q to outdraw you is inconsequental really. If your hand stands up there, like it does 81% of the time (or 4 times out of 5), you become a huge chip leader in the tournament.

                                          So good luck in your efforts to learn about the game, and be sure to post up hands here for anylasis (although sometimes, you will have to learn to ignore the wise craics!!)

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Last Sunday night in the IWF mega sat there were 21 packages up for grabs. With 31 people left I was lying 6th with enough chips to be average at the business end. I reckon I get a seat here more than 90% of the time.

                                            I am the big blind. The small blind has slightly more chips, he is lying 5th. Action is folded to the button who raises. The SB now reraises all in. I have AA.

                                            A clear fold as my aces get cracked on average 20% of the time?

                                            Do I fold. No, I knew it was proper but still found myself clicking the call button.

                                            SB turns over 10,10. Flop 8,9,J.

                                            I am now cursing myself for being so thick!

                                            Turn and river are both blanks and I become chip leader and get the package easily

                                            Moral of the Story:
                                            Yes, aces should be folded on rare occasions but it's bloody hard to click that button!

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by dinjo99 View Post
                                              Last Sunday night in the IWF mega sat there were 21 packages up for grabs. With 31 people left I was lying 6th with enough chips to be average at the business end. I reckon I get a seat here more than 90% of the time.

                                              I am the big blind. The small blind has slightly more chips, he is lying 5th. Action is folded to the button who raises. The SB now reraises all in. I have AA.

                                              A clear fold as my aces get cracked on average 20% of the time?

                                              Do I fold. No, I knew it was proper but still found myself clicking the call button.

                                              SB turns over 10,10. Flop 8,9,J.

                                              I am now cursing myself for being so thick!

                                              Turn and river are both blanks and I become chip leader and get the package easily

                                              Moral of the Story:
                                              Yes, aces should be folded on rare occasions but it's bloody hard to click that button!
                                              With 21 packages and 31 people left your still probably going to have to win some pots.
                                              Now im not a satty expert but winning this pot guarantees you a ticket.
                                              If you think your 90%to win a ticket then calling is madness how did you come up with the 90% number?

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Fearbocht View Post
                                                With 21 packages and 31 people left your still probably going to have to win some pots.
                                                Now im not a satty expert but winning this pot guarantees you a ticket.
                                                If you think your 90%to win a ticket then calling is madness how did you come up with the 90% number?
                                                Maybe 90% is an over estimation but from having played a few of these mega sats I reckon its not far off. There were probably 5 players left with very short stacks. As I said already I had enough chips to be average with 21 left.
                                                I honestly think that at least 60% of the time you can fold your way to a ticket from here.
                                                Another 30% of the time you can win a few small pots here and there to make sure of a ticket.
                                                I have no doubt that calling with the Aces was -EV.

                                                Anyway Mick, aren't you the Fecker who called me "Donegal Catch" in the Fitz. about 5 years ago!
                                                Have been using it as my avatar since.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by dinjo99 View Post
                                                  Maybe 90% is an over estimation but from having played a few of these mega sats I reckon its not far off. There were probably 5 players left with very short stacks. As I said already I had enough chips to be average with 21 left.
                                                  I honestly think that at least 60% of the time you can fold your way to a ticket from here.
                                                  Another 30% of the time you can win a few small pots here and there to make sure of a ticket.
                                                  I have no doubt that calling with the Aces was -EV.

                                                  Anyway Mick, aren't you the Fecker who called me "Donegal Catch" in the Fitz. about 5 years ago!
                                                  Have been using it as my avatar since.
                                                  Without knowing all stack sizes in your situation I'd say it's still a snap call. In these types of satellites you can be very slow to lose the 10 players required. Everyone tightens up, smaller stacks can double up. If you don't take this edge, you can easily get dragged back into it close to the bubble.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    REINVENTING Gaming About FrankFrank Lantz is the Creative Director and co-Founder of Area/Code, a New York based developer that creates cross-media, location...


                                                    This is a good video to watch. Might help you understand how you can make the right decision and get the wrong result, and vice versa.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                        I remember Flipper posting in the old place about folding AA on a FT something like 4 handed to ladder (cant find it but remember thinking it was redic)
                                                        I remember that, it might have even been 3 handed.
                                                        Flipper tried to justify folding AA as he felt he had a massive edge even shallow.

                                                        Cue lots of piss taking, a bit of maths to point out how big his edge would need to be to make it correct, and the painfully obvious fact that any edge comes from not folding the best hand.
                                                        Originally posted by Fearbocht View Post
                                                        With 21 packages and 31 people left your still probably going to have to win some pots.
                                                        Now im not a satty expert but winning this pot guarantees you a ticket.
                                                        If you think your 90%to win a ticket then calling is madness how did you come up with the 90% number?
                                                        Old concept but, with 10 places to the bubble, and with him sitting 15 spots from the last ticket, his B ratio is 1.5 I'd be happy to pass from here.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                          I remember that, it might have even been 3 handed.
                                                          Flipper tried to justify folding AA as he felt he had a massive edge even shallow.

                                                          Cue lots of piss taking, a bit of maths to point out how big his edge would need to be to make it correct, and the painfully obvious fact that any edge comes from not folding the best hand.
                                                          .

                                                          Originally posted by Flipper
                                                          It's certainly possible to lay down AA pre-flop in certain situations. I didn't a few months back in the €200 freezeout in the Macau. Down to three players, I had 55% of the chips in play with the other two being almost exactly even. I was on the BB and found AA. The button and the SB both moved all in and before insta-calling, I took a look at the prize breakdown. It was something like €3,200 for 1st, €2,100 for 2nd and only €900 for 3rd. I showed everyone the Aces and mucked them - knowing that I would certainly move up the prize-ladder by one notch WITHOUT damaging my 55% lead in chips. It turned out to be AK vs AQ and latter took it down with a smelly flush. I went on to win it out.
                                                          Originally posted by Flipper
                                                          I knew that by calling I would be committing half my stack. If either player outdraws me, I still go heads up but with only 30% of the chips. One factor that I forgot to mention is that the blinds were huge at that point and I felt that if I dropped back to 30% (worst case) I would need to get lucky to do any better that 2nd place (because there would have been very little play left). If I fold, I'm GUARANTEED to go heads up (provided no split pot) with over 50% of the chips and improve my chances of winning the tourney outright - as there would be a lot more play + I figured I'd have the edge heads up.

                                                          Now I know I'm leaving out the possibility that i'd end the tourney right there and then by calling and busting the two of them but if both had pocket pairs for example, I'd only be about 1/2 to win the hand. With the play I was leaving in the game heads up, I made myself that price to win anyway - without ANY risk of being 2 to 1 against in chips.
                                                          Originally posted by Flipper
                                                          I understand what you're saying and all the theory is correct but as you know, in a tournament your chips are much more valuable than in say, a cash game. Once they're lost, you can's rebuy or get them back. It might be the right move IN THEORY to call with the AA and mathmatically be the favourite but as you know, AA will be busted frequently in a multi-way. By folding, I'm controlling my faith in the heads-up and also the stacks.

                                                          I never felt that poker was just about putting your chips in the middle with the best hand. A good player will plan ahead to the next few hands and that's what I did here.

                                                          BTW, it worked.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            It's okay, found someone who folds AA pre

                                                            One of these days I am either going to quit poker or learn how to play the damn game

                                                            Comment

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