tricky spot in tourney

[denchhhh]

clane day 1 blinds 300-600 ante 50

hero has about 20k 33 bbs

UTG+3 limps
co limps
button limps ( very good player but limps with strange hands)
sb completes ( big nit had played like 4hands in 4hours)

bb looks down at AQ I raise to 2700 everyone folds apart from the button the 2nd most aggressive player on table apart from myself.

flop 2 4 10 rainbow

I cbet for 2600and villian clicks it back to 5200. I tank and ship for like 17k.

he tank calls me with j4 and i get knocked out.

any advice or thoughts welcome?

[curehead]

in bb 4 limpers check see a flop or raise is even fine but when flop comes you only have A high c bet is fine but you are first to act out of position take it from there and save your chips for a better spot.

[Guest]

In a spot like this you should definitely be checking preflop, against a field as weak as this and playin a reasonable stack of 33 bbs your edge should lie post flop.
By raising, you inflate a pot OOP against possibly 4 players and given the standard of these players I would be confident you are being by at least 2-3 players here!!

[denchhhh]

yes that crossed my mind checking preflop. the fellow that stacked me is a very well known player. its close i just think hand is too good preflop to check its very close tho

[Guest]

I like how you played it but I would make it a bet more pre-flop.

[Flushdraw]

Shove pre. There's about 4k in the middle to add to your stack. As played, a 10 4 2 flop smacks a guys range that limps, calls a raise and then raises your cbet so i just let it go on the flop. I usually love it tho if you think he's weak

[Guest]

Then its not close preflop to be honest, that makes a check even more relevant, I don't know who the player is but he's happy to play you in position because of his post flop edge, by inflating the pot OOP with such a difficult stack to play with, you leave yourself quite vulnerable.

I honestly don't know why the guys like your play tbh, your playing OOP against the only guy on the table who may have an edge over you. I really don't see the point imho, I can't see him folding too much of his post flop 3 betting range either considering how aggro you say you were so for me personally I pretty much hate everything about the hand!

[Guest]

Was thinking of the shove pre but I think 33bb is just a shade too much to be jamming. Also T42r smacks no range! He literally can have no strong hands when he raises there imo.

[curehead]

Shove pre. There's about 4k in the middle to add to your stack. As played, a 10 4 2 flop smacks a guys range that limps, calls a raise and then raises your cbet so i just let it go on the flop. I usually love it tho if you think he's weak

i just don't think it's ever a profitable play in the long run out of position with just ace high
you'll only get called when your beat and over the course of 100 tourneys it won't work enough
to be profitable. you might spike but odds are not good in long term

[denchhhh]

i thought shove pre. im picking up 3k which is about 14% off my stack. if I was 20-25bb i probably shove. what made it more interesting was the villian was a very good player and was capable of clicking it back with air aswel as hero calling with a marginal hand like he done. He told me after he snap folds when any other player does that on the table.

[KK82]

I kinda like the shove pre OOP. Much better than 3 betting it in with Ace high on the flop anyway.
Also, with that flop, he could easily have a set.

[denchhhh]

he could have a set. but with his aggression it was air more then likely. if i run into a set well then lolz. if it was some 50year old man clicking it back i snap fold

[Guest]

i thought shove pre. im picking up 3k which is about 14% off my stack. if I was 20-25bb i probably shove. what made it more interesting was the villian was a very good player and was capable of clicking it back with air aswel as hero calling with a marginal hand like he done. He told me after he snap folds when any other player does that on the table.

See I don't think he has much of a 3 bet folding range here, just because he called you off so light doesn't make your shove good, it actually makes it really bad because you have done exactly what your image has suggested you will do. In a tournament of this calibre against the calibre of player this play looks even worse because there are so many more profitable spots.
Someone(s) may say you should never give up any edge no matter the field etc but this spot is just bad to shove imo, the vast majority of the time you are going to have two overs(unless he has Q10, obv raises a10) and a backdoor draw and maybe crushed by 22 and 44 so you are very rarely up the shitter considering his calling range is so wide but its still so bad because I really fail to see given your image how often he raise folds the flop.

If he flats then yes continue the turn otherwise just give up

[Flushdraw]

Was thinking of the shove pre but I think 33bb is just a shade too much to be jamming. Also T42r smacks no range! He literally can have no strong hands when he raises there imo.

i just don't think it's ever a profitable play in the long run out of position with just ace high
you'll only get called when your beat and over the course of 100 tourneys it won't work enough
to be profitable. you might spike but odds are not good in long term

The fact he has 33 bigs pre, is almost redundant from what's happened in the pot up until it gets to hero in BB. If he made it 900 and got 6 callers, he still has 33 bigs but he's now shoving to add 7k to his stack. This is a Clane game full of oldies and pub players. Sets raise there all the time, top pair raises. We're always behind

@ Curehead. It's defo profitable. Not many players are going to limp/call off their stacks there. It's never going to be AA/KK/QQ either so it's a good spot for us to shove with tons of fold equity and tons of equity when called

[denchhhh]

yes they always have a set there. the villian was a young fellow. he is up over 300k in live earnings this year. air was within his range obv any nit or old person or lady clicks it back i am gone so fast.

[ghostface]

yes they always have a set there. the villian was a young fellow. he is up over 300k in live earnings this year. air was within his range obv any nit or old person or lady clicks it back i am gone so fast.

blaahhhhhh owned you obviously

[Guest]

Only 1 guy I know who fits that description i think!!

[curehead]

@flush draw do you think it's profitable in the sense that villan folds and we pick up the pot there and then or that we often spike an A or Q on river and take it all ?

[Guest]

He's only adding a bit over 3k with a shove, about 10%.

[Flushdraw]

He's only adding a bit over 3k with a shove, about 10%.

I added an extra blind. It's 600 x 5 + 500 antes so 3500. Makes it a little closer but in a Celtic Poker game, i'd be happy to this this light, so AQ would be a sexy shove. If we're not shoving, i prefer to just check my action pre and see a flop

[denchhhh]

im playing 20k 3k is like 12.5 percent. i don't mind the shove pre. i probably should off checked it.

[Flushdraw]

@flush draw do you think it's profitable in the sense that villan folds and we pick up the pot there and then or that we often spike an A or Q on river and take it all ?

A, with a sprinkling of B

[curehead]

A, with a sprinkling of B

on the a) side with his click back to 5k he's not folding to shove with 10 behind
and 7 and half invested so to make it profitable on b) side we need to hit a 6 outer turn or river , looking at it from that side you are possibly at best 4/1 dog to just double up and then some,
to me the click back bet suggests he's not folding if he were to fold we are risking too much for too little with A high

[Flushdraw]

on the a) side with his click back to 5k he's not folding to shove with 10 behind
and 7 and half invested so to make it profitable on b) side we need to hit a 6 outer turn or river , looking at it from that side you are possibly at best 4/1 dog to just double up and then some,
to me the click back bet suggests he's not folding if he were to fold we are risking too much for too little with A high

I'm talking about shoving preflop, not on the flop!

[denchhhh]

he can easily fold when he clicks it back on the flop. hes clicking it back to 5 k. he could easily have air. i think its pretty standard was this closing to shipping pre tho sighhhh.

[Hectorjelly]

Was thinking of the shove pre but I think 33bb is just a shade too much to be jamming. Also T42r smacks no range! He literally can have no strong hands when he raises there imo.

Any ten is a strong hand

[Hectorjelly]

The problem with bet 3 betting this flop is everyone thinks you have AK/AQ when you raise pre, and you do in fact have AK/AQ, hence him calling you with middle pair. Given that they are likely to call you with anything I'd just give up when he raises you. I wouldn't worry about it though, it's good to be capable of moves like this (as long as you don't do it too much).

Sometimes in these spots vs morons who will limp call with anything I just check pre and play a small pot with a very disguised holding. Its much easier to play ace high in position.

Also, consider not cbetting, it's a bad board to cbet.

[Laois Hammer]

Anyone hate calling the click back? chances are if villain is good he'd know his line looks full of shit so should have something, call will look so much better than shipping, your never really shipping your nutty value range. maybe give up if he bets turn, maybe check jam if you pick up broadway draw, is your AQ sooted?. if he checks back make what appears to be a value bet on river. anyone hate it / like it?

having said that id either check pre or make it 3.4'ish

[denchhhh]

hector ur points are very valid. i was just thinking that he was good player why would he raise unless he a set or air. had 2ukipt final table so he is obv very good. even with a set he could just flat and let me hang myself.

[theduster]

Not really diggin the whole shove pre thing here....
What calls us here that were beating??
Granted its a limped pot and our AQ should be best pf, but we are the most aggr at the table so it's possible someone has limped with a big hand knowing theres a good chance we'll raise in bb with a number of limpers behind....

I think givin the action a check pf is best...

[Hectorjelly]

hector ur points are very valid. i was just thinking that he was good player why would he raise unless he a set or air. had 2ukipt final table so he is obv very good. even with a set he could just flat and let me hang myself.

I have no idea who it is, but a guy doing well in tournaments, even over a medium time frame means absolutely nothing. Getting to two UKIPT final tables means he ran for a while, nothing more. Several terrible players have won the WSOP, even in later years with huge fields. Based on his play in this hand he is just on a heater. He's not necessarily bad, but don't get too swayed by short term results.

[KK82]

Really don't like the way the villain played this hand.. Seems weird to raise/call it off on the flop with middle pair. Don't like his limp/call pre either. Take it this is the same guy who got his entire stack in with a flush draw in the first level or two in the WPT also? Fair play to him on his results if so. The high variance plays seem to be working out pretty well for him.

[curehead]

I'm talking about shoving preflop, not on the flop!

not to be pedantic flushdraw but how could you be talking about preflop when you reply this.????

Originally Posted by curehead
@flush draw do you think it's profitable in the sense that villan folds and we pick up the pot there and then or that we often spike an A or Q on river and take it all ?

A, with a sprinkling of B

[Flushdraw]

not to be pedantic flushdraw but how could you be talking about preflop when you reply this.????

Originally Posted by curehead
@flush draw do you think it's profitable in the sense that villan folds and we pick up the pot there and then or that we often spike an A or Q on river and take it all ?

A, with a sprinkling of B

What are you on about?? It's profitable when we keep taking it down pre obv, but if he calls and we spike an A or Q against hos calling range which should only be pairs up to JJ? The only thing i said about the flop was 'so i just let it go on the flop' so lost as to what you're saying

I prefer a c/r on this flop than a lead. If we have an overpair or a set, i don't think we're ever shoving over his click back when the villain's range is so polarised

[Carl_Morrissey]

Not really a fan of how either player plays the hand. Hate the limp with J4, not a fan of the raise with AQ in this tourney, actually don't mind the cbet but once raised I fold. Actually don't like the click back/call with middle pair either. As far as the shove on the flop what was it designed to achieve, make a weak 10 fold?

[denchhhh]

i think a check raise is a weird line on the flop as the original raiser. like if i had an overpair i just cbet anyway. the flop 3 bet was trying to get him fold marginal holdings plus all air. if i flat the flat he is just shipping 90 percent of turns and i have to fold. I was lettting go as i knew he wasnt very strong.

[FeetMagic]

Definitely wouldn't CR the flop. Fold to the click back and it looks fine to me. I would've shoved preflop.

[ferg]

AQ does look pretty but needs to hit the flop lots to win.

Im in the shove pre-flop camp, add more than 10% to my stack, easy game. Thats not even taking into account that your oop to the player at the table that you rate as having the biggest edge!! Hard to see AA, KK, AK so in the unlikely event that you are called then most probably at worst your flipping and at best your crushing.

As played im folding to the click back, meh

[curehead]

i think a check raise is a weird line on the flop as the original raiser. like if i had an overpair i just cbet anyway. the flop 3 bet was trying to get him fold marginal holdings plus all air. if i flat the flat he is just shipping 90 percent of turns and i have to fold. I was lettting go as i knew he wasnt very strong.

Exactly I've no idea what that guy was on about he's contradicting himself all over the shop

[curehead]

Definitely wouldn't CR the flop. Fold to the click back and it looks fine to me. I would've shoved preflop.

I agree Definitely worst line is to check raise given the chip stacks and betting pattern up to this stage fold and keep your stack you'll live to fight another day. Probably bad call from villain pre and lucky hit on flop and raising our continuation bet another big risk given he doesn't know if we have over pair but we simply can't continue in the hand after this.

[DaKid]

I like the advice so far, I think its better to shove pre and pick up an extra 12% than to try and play AQ oop. I played in that tourney and it seemed like most people were playing pretty straight forward( i.e limping with their weak hands and raising with their strong ones) so I think your ahead a huge amount of the time and still fold out 22-88 pre.

As played you told us about how the villan played, but you never said how you were playing, especially in the eyes of the villan. Were you playing aggressive and did you look like someone who knew what they were doing? Its important because its a very light call from the villan when you shove if there is no history. It seems there must have been some kind of history for the villan to do this. If you had been aggressive, the villan was probably thinking that you would think that he was only raising the flop because the flop doesn't hit your raising range from the BB that often( Love his sizing btw) so therefore he's raising his mid pair for value expecting your to shove all your A highs etc. You should maybe have been award of this and known that if he thinks your capable of shoving with air here he is probably not going to raise the flop as a bluff.

(BTW villans play preflop is horrible)