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noobie live hand in the fitz 1 2 pl

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    noobie live hand in the fitz 1 2 pl

    Hi

    I haven’t been playing poker in quite a long time and over the past few weeks I’ve been playing a bit more and analysing how I play a in do it more. The play below is probably quite straightforward but i would appreciate your comments as its been bothering me.

    The below is most of the info I can remember from the hand however I would probably remember additional details if there are any elements that would be relevant but I haven't included.

    Live hand, 6 handed.

    €400 (Hero – Button)

    €550 (Villain – BB)

    Blinds 1 / 2 pot limit

    I’ve A10os, folded to me I make it 7 to go. SB folds, BB calls.

    BB has been active at the table, playing in around 40/25 guesstimate and has been very aggressive on the flop and turn when he has a piece.* He has been calling a lot of raises from the BB, I would say 80% of the time.* He has check-raised me off 2 or 3 pots throughout the night where I’ve been weak/trying to steal a pot in position.* He’s also seen me raise pre flop, bet the flop, turn and fire on the river with nothing.

    I’ve been playing about 30/25 I think . I’ve been raised off quite a few hands following continuation bets ive made and I would say the perception is that I can be raised off pots where I’m not strong as I haven’t 3bet much.* He has been also been betting or raising with pairs on the flop all night, especially heads up.* When he is calling bets he is generally drawing.

    Flop A spades 5clubs 9spades

    Villain checks

    Hero bets €13

    Villain calls............€41 in the pot.

    Turn 2 diamonds.


    Villain checks, hero bets €30.

    Villain makes it €125.

    At this point my feelings are that Villain is weak, flush draw , possibly with low pair.*if this is my read then what's the best play? as In do I flat call knowing the odds are against him hitting his flush and him firing on the river or do I ship on turn?

    My thoughts are that this is a ship on the turn, always, but not 100 percent on how I'm reaching that conclusion.


    Thanks in advance.

    Scoop

    #2
    Please don't ship

    Comment


      #3
      From what you are saying, it looks like he knows you are easily raised off hands because you are either bluffing too much or too tight.

      If he has showdown value such as Ax or say 9x I dont see him raising here as he wont want to blow u off and let u keep firing away your bluffs like previous hands you've mentioned.

      So I'd weight his range towards either 2pair hands, like A9, A5, A2 a set of 3s (99 he probs 3bets pre given his aggression) and FDs + Bluffs.
      Getting 200 big blindes in with Top Pair is rarely a good thing but if the guy is starting to take the piss (with c/raises) I might just go and call down.

      I don't see the point in pushing all in on the turn here. If he has FD or pair and FD you are still a decent favourite to win with one card to come so I would call/reevaluate.

      It's a tough spot. Has he been c/r the flop or turn previously with draws? Usually villains are more likely to c/r flop with draws in my experience and a c/r on the turn is usually a much more polarised range of strong made hands and air. Live cash in the Fitz it's usually...the nuts or close to it but this guy sounds like he could be one of the few who will actually have more draws and air in his turn c/r range here.

      I probably still just fold (and sigh internally) yet again, if not I'd go for calling him down. I don't like getting it in on the turn tbh.
      Last edited by bustamoves; 19-11-12, 19:40.

      Comment


        #4
        Well giving yourself or your opponent HUD is difficult and unnecessary imo, but anyway the hand.
        I think shipping is crazy however I also think calling is really bad as well, because any river puts you in a really difficult situation, if the guy is good and aggro hes obviously aware that you are also decent and would probably not be bluff raising to many turns tbh. I would be defo insta folding the turn when raised but then again I wouldn't have bet the turn.
        Against him he his expecting you to slow down on so many turns once he calls so you should prob check and bluff catch the river if/when he fires.

        Like getting 200bbs in here wit top pair decent kicker is crazy!!

        But as played a call is bad and so is a shove!! Just fold!!
        Last edited by Guest; 19-11-12, 19:47.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by brady23 View Post
          Well giving yourself or your opponent HUD is difficult and unnecessary imo, but anyway the hand.
          I think shipping is crazy however I also think calling is really bad as well, because any river puts you in a really difficult situation, if the guy is good and aggro hes obviously aware that you are also decent and would probably not be bluff raising to many turns tbh. I would be defo insta folding the turn when raised but then again I wouldn't have bet the turn.
          Against him he his expecting you to slow down on so many turns once he calls so you should prob check and bluff catch the river if/when he fires.

          Like getting 200bbs in here wit top pair decent kicker is crazy!!

          But as played a call is bad and so is a shove!! Just fold!!
          Checking turns seems really bad to me. We lose a lot of value from weaker hands.

          Where did you get 'he's expecting you to slow down from'?

          Comment


            #6
            If you ship here you're really only getting called by hands that beat you.

            In a way you shouldn't even have to ask the question, you should know before you bet the turn what you're going do if raised, especially since you consider him likely to try to take you off it.

            There's not many Ace hands you're ahead of now, when he calls the c- bet I just check behind on the turn and call a bet on most rivers.

            As played I fold to the c/raise.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
              Checking turns seems really bad to me. We lose a lot of value from weaker hands.

              Where did you get 'he's expecting you to slow down from'?
              Well I know if I am playing against a good player who is competent I am less likely to play a large pot with marginal holdings!!
              By checking the turn we can still get value because he will often bluff because we have shown such weakness, I dont see him calling two streets with many hands that we beat tbh.
              Its jusr a much lower variance approach against an aggro player

              Comment


                #8
                I would be checking behind on the turn and calling a river bet

                As played I would never call the c/r on the turn

                Seems like a risky spot, would just fold at this stage. I think he is way more likely to c/r a FD on the flop, and think he is more likely to have a better ace/2pair or a set on the turn

                Comment


                  #9
                  he had 3 4 ye?
                  Jayzus, Sheila! I forgot me feckin' trousers

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Your turn bet is really bad vs this villain, its v unlikely you can get 3 streets of value from worse with this hand so you either need to check turn or check river and checking turn is much better as you allow him to bluff sometimes + you stop yourself getting blasted off possibly the best. It seems your focusing far to much on protecting your hand. As played its a trivial fold, you have €50 invested and will cost you €90 on the turn to call and the other €255 on the river as he is shipping always if hes bluffing based off your description. Shipping turn as you suggested in the OP is suicide, all better hands call, all worse hands fold. Pot control FTW.
                    Last edited by Daragh999; 20-11-12, 07:19.
                    They will be like WTF how does he always have the top of his range, and they will be saying that when you show up with like nine's - Jimmy Fricke
                    Nine's are the top of my range - Shaun Deeb

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I think the turn is a pretty clear bet for value. Idk if people are just being results orientated because he got check-raised.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                        I think the turn is a pretty clear bet for value. Idk if people are just being results orientated because he got check-raised.
                        I think against a tight player yes

                        This villians range is pretty wide... And its never nice playing a big pot with a one pair hand when your not really sure where you stand. Keep the pot small, and hopefully he will bluff the river

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by narrucp View Post
                          I think against a tight player yes

                          This villians range is pretty wide...
                          I think you have it backwards.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Are you going to get three streets of value from a worse hand though? Hardly..Turn bet just swells the pot and while our hand is good it's not exactly stacking off 200 bigs good.

                            Flop is good

                            Basically station it for the rest of the hand. Plenty of random floats and FDs that he'll fire a turn and river bullet at
                            Redbet at the Dublin Poker Invasion FTW

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                              I think the turn is a pretty clear bet for value. Idk if people are just being results orientated because he got check-raised.
                              It's not very clear if he doesn't know what to do when raised.

                              Is it a raise/ fold or raise/ call?

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Against the villain described you need a good plan. He seems capable of check raising air/draws/worse hands, so you either check behind and call a river bet, which is nice and safe and easy; or bet/call the turn. If you are scared you can just bet shove, he might talk himself into calling with worse, or you can bet call, then call a river bet on most cards. Probably fold to a shove on a spade.

                                Any plan that involves folding is terrible.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                  I think the turn is a pretty clear bet for value. Idk if people are just being results orientated because he got check-raised.
                                  I think the turn is a really obvious check,our hand just isnt strong enough to get three streets. As said it also encourages him to bluff. Control that mofo.
                                  The only reason I like a bet is if you think he is so splashy/creative/spewey that your trying to induce.

                                  Regardless, against a villian like this, who you seem to have constructed a very clear image of and range for you need to know what you are going to do before you make that bet.

                                  As played I would 100% fold the turn.


                                  #Unless of course I was losing in the game then fook him imo, heres the lot#
                                  Last edited by Closed_Account; 20-11-12, 11:57.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                    I think the turn is a pretty clear bet for value. Idk if people are just being results orientated because he got check-raised.
                                    K, bet the turn, and when he C/R what are you going to do? And even if he calls and the river is any card that dosn't improve your hand, are you going to value bet and hope to get called by worse?

                                    Originally posted by Hectorjelly
                                    If you are scared you can just bet shove, he might talk himself into calling with worse
                                    This is good advice for taking a wad of money out of your pocket and lighting it on fire.
                                    They will be like WTF how does he always have the top of his range, and they will be saying that when you show up with like nine's - Jimmy Fricke
                                    Nine's are the top of my range - Shaun Deeb

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Daragh999 View Post
                                      K, bet the turn, and when he C/R what are you going to do? And even if he calls and the river is any card that dosn't improve your hand, are you going to value bet and hope to get called by worse?



                                      This is good advice for taking a wad of money out of your pocket and lighting it on fire.
                                      +1..Unless he's a complete nutter he's not getting it in on the turn with a bare FD. Everything else that calls you has you beat. At the best he could have an overvalued/semi bluff with a pair and a FD and will likely call it off. The times he has these hand outweighs the times he has you crushed
                                      Redbet at the Dublin Poker Invasion FTW

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                        Against the villain described you need a good plan. He seems capable of check raising air/draws/worse hands, so you either check behind and call a river bet, which is nice and safe and easy; or bet/call the turn. If you are scared you can just bet shove, he might talk himself into calling with worse, or you can bet call, then call a river bet on most cards. Probably fold to a shove on a spade.

                                        Any plan that involves folding is terrible.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                          Against the villain described you need a good plan. He seems capable of check raising air/draws/worse hands, so you either check behind and call a river bet, which is nice and safe and easy; or bet/call the turn. If you are scared you can just bet shove, he might talk himself into calling with worse, or you can bet call, then call a river bet on most cards. Probably fold to a shove on a spade.

                                          Any plan that involves folding is terrible.
                                          Unless he's really bad he's not calling with much that's worse.
                                          Also most of his worse hands that might call like combo draws / pair and FD hands, have decent equity whereas all the hands you're behind have you crushed.

                                          Any plan that involves shoving is terrible IMO.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Daragh999 View Post
                                            K, bet the turn, and when he C/R what are you going to do? And even if he calls and the river is any card that dosn't improve your hand, are you going to value bet and hope to get called by worse?
                                            I'm fine w/ folding to a cr. And there's a a lot more value in betting the turn than the river.

                                            edit: we're bu vs blind, with a strong hand relatively, against a splashy opponent, on a board where a ton of stuff is peeling.

                                            How is "we can't get three streets of value" an argument against betting the turn? I never said anything about the river.
                                            Last edited by Denny Crane; 20-11-12, 14:07.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                              I'm fine w/ folding to a cr. And there's a a lot more value in betting the turn than the river.

                                              edit: we're bu vs blind, with a strong hand relatively, against a splashy opponent, on a board where a ton of stuff is peeling.

                                              How is we can't get three of value an argument against betting the turn? I never said anything about the river.
                                              .....So your turning that strong hand against a splashy aggro opponent into a bluff??? Thats the arguement against betting the turn, we can get blasted off our hand + we can get thin value on the river if we check from his lower pairs, missed draws +bluffs. You still havn't stated on blank rivers whether your betting for value or not.
                                              They will be like WTF how does he always have the top of his range, and they will be saying that when you show up with like nine's - Jimmy Fricke
                                              Nine's are the top of my range - Shaun Deeb

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Daragh999 View Post
                                                .....So your turning that strong hand against a splashy aggro opponent into a bluff???
                                                I think the turn is a pretty clear bet for value.
                                                ?

                                                Originally posted by Daragh999 View Post
                                                Thats the arguement against betting the turn, we can get blasted off our hand + we can get thin value on the river if we check from his lower pairs, missed draws +bluffs.
                                                And we can get big fat value on the turn against that range if we bet. Idk about you but when a blank deuce comes out I'm not too worried about getting blasted off my hand.

                                                Originally posted by Daragh999 View Post
                                                You still havn't stated on blank rivers whether your betting for value or not.
                                                Depends.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                  And we can get big fat value on the turn against that range if we bet. Idk about you but when a blank deuce comes out I'm not too worried about getting blasted off my hand.
                                                  Lol you just said earlier that you were folding to the C/R on this 2 turn, your not thinking ahead, just saying 'i have top pair OK kicker i bet' isn't good enough. And also if your not betting the river you can get that same bet 1 street later while guaranteeing a showdown stopping you folding the best hand sometimes.
                                                  They will be like WTF how does he always have the top of his range, and they will be saying that when you show up with like nine's - Jimmy Fricke
                                                  Nine's are the top of my range - Shaun Deeb

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                    I'm fine w/ folding to a cr. And there's a a lot more value in betting the turn than the river.

                                                    edit: we're bu vs blind, with a strong hand relatively, against a splashy opponent, on a board where a ton of stuff is peeling.

                                                    How is "we can't get three streets of value" an argument against betting the turn? I never said anything about the river.
                                                    +1 to this. Too much value button vs loose blind to not bet turn. If ya want a hand to check back turn and induce river bluffs then use a weaker part of your range and pick weaker aces, 1010-KK or 9x if you bet it on the flop. Both ours and sb's ranges are too wide to be pot controlling a hand that is relatively so strong.

                                                    You wont get checkraised that often either on this turn card, weird spot when you do. He is repping super thin after not checkraising flop so I'd go into call down mode.

                                                    edit: not really +1 to everything Denny says, I'd prefer bet call turn to bet fold.
                                                    "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Daragh999 View Post
                                                      Lol you just said earlier that you were folding to the C/R on this 2 turn, your not thinking ahead, just saying 'i have top pair OK kicker i bet' isn't good enough. And also if your not betting the river you can get that same bet 1 street later while guaranteeing a showdown stopping you folding the best hand sometimes.
                                                      I think it's a pretty huge mistake not betting a blank turn because you're worried about getting to showdown.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Don't think I can fold given reads. I make these kind of calls all the time. People see me making big folds in what are fairly obvious spots to me, and then think that I am weak and they can bluff me off mediocre hands, because they woul dhave paid the guy off. In some ways it's true, I do get bluffed a fair bit, but sometimes you have to take a stand and this is a very good spot to do it.
                                                        "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by JamieCarra View Post
                                                          Great response.
                                                          Did you read the description? This isn't a nit. When he check raises here his range is absolutely huge, and has loads of hands in it that we beat. If we call the check raise the stack to pot ratio is about 1:1 so shoving is fine.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by scoopabayor View Post
                                                            Hi

                                                            I haven’t been playing poker in quite a long time and over the past few weeks I’ve been playing a bit more and analysing how I play a in do it more. The play below is probably quite straightforward but i would appreciate your comments as its been bothering me.

                                                            The below is most of the info I can remember from the hand however I would probably remember additional details if there are any elements that would be relevant but I haven't included.

                                                            Live hand, 6 handed.

                                                            €400 (Hero – Button)

                                                            €550 (Villain – BB)

                                                            Blinds 1 / 2 pot limit

                                                            I’ve A10os, folded to me I make it 7 to go. SB folds, BB calls.

                                                            BB has been active at the table, playing in around 40/25 guesstimate and has been very aggressive on the flop and turn when he has a piece.* He has been calling a lot of raises from the BB, I would say 80% of the time.* He has check-raised me off 2 or 3 pots throughout the night where I’ve been weak/trying to steal a pot in position.* He’s also seen me raise pre flop, bet the flop, turn and fire on the river with nothing.

                                                            I’ve been playing about 30/25 I think . I’ve been raised off quite a few hands following continuation bets ive made and I would say the perception is that I can be raised off pots where I’m not strong as I haven’t 3bet much.* He has been also been betting or raising with pairs on the flop all night, especially heads up.* When he is calling bets he is generally drawing.

                                                            Flop A spades 5clubs 9spades

                                                            Villain checks

                                                            Hero bets €13

                                                            Villain calls............€41 in the pot.

                                                            Turn 2 diamonds.


                                                            Villain checks, hero bets €30.

                                                            Villain makes it €125.

                                                            At this point my feelings are that Villain is weak, flush draw , possibly with low pair.*if this is my read then what's the best play? as In do I flat call knowing the odds are against him hitting his flush and him firing on the river or do I ship on turn?

                                                            My thoughts are that this is a ship on the turn, always, but not 100 percent on how I'm reaching that conclusion.


                                                            Thanks in advance.

                                                            Scoop
                                                            I havent read any of the reponses yet as it would just change my thoughts.

                                                            I check back that flop as it is really a hand where you will win a little or lose a lot. I mean you could make a case for c betting a high % of your range if this was a reg game against reg players week in week out.

                                                            As played im 100% folding the turn. You cant call off your 200bb stack with one pair average kicker ever.
                                                            Pm for rakeback deals

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Is this thread in a time warp?

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by tipp86 View Post
                                                                I havent read any of the reponses yet as it would just change my thoughts.

                                                                I check back that flop as it is really a hand where you will win a little or lose a lot. I mean you could make a case for c betting a high % of your range if this was a reg game against reg players week in week out.

                                                                As played im 100% folding the turn. You cant call off your 200bb stack with one pair average kicker ever.
                                                                You are playing against a guy who calls raises with almost any two cards and gives a lot of actions, and you want to
                                                                a) check back the flop
                                                                and b)
                                                                never call down with top pair.

                                                                B especially is terrible advice. You can call down 200bb with a lot worse than top pair profitably. Granted it's unusual, but I've made fortunes against maniacs by calling down with top pair.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by BigDeal View Post
                                                                  Unless he's really bad he's not calling with much that's worse..
                                                                  He is playing 40/25 and calling 80% of raises in the BB. Of course he is bad

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                    You are playing against a guy who calls raises with almost any two cards and gives a lot of actions, and you want to
                                                                    a) check back the flop
                                                                    and b)
                                                                    never call down with top pair.

                                                                    B especially is terrible advice. You can call down 200bb with a lot worse than top pair profitably. Granted it's unusual, but I've made fortunes against maniacs by calling down with top pair.
                                                                    Not sure how to answer this as i cant argue with any of the points you make. Ya im sorry i def take that back about calling down with one pair but as you said it's rare and i would need more than we have here to be doing it.

                                                                    If im been honest i probably gave an opinion on how i would play this hand in a live setting where i would not be rolled. I would not always check the flop but i would always be checking the turn there.

                                                                    He did not really give the impression that villian had been turning over rubbish. I just dont see a live player bluffing there all that often.

                                                                    How i would play this hand at a 20nl online table im not sure. Probably cbet flop and turn and check river depending on what it is.

                                                                    Im not sure if it's mental to have two completely differing ways of playing a hand if it's online or live. I just know id need a bit more info to be getting 200bbs in on a live table with that weak a hand.
                                                                    Pm for rakeback deals

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                      Great response.
                                                                      Did you read the description? This isn't a nit. When he check raises here his range is absolutely huge, and has loads of hands in it that we beat. If we call the check raise the stack to pot ratio is about 1:1 so shoving is fine.
                                                                      For a start we don't know what sample these stats are over. Even if he is as crazy as you seem to think heis then a call of the raise with the plan to call on most / all rivers is going to be a far better option than shoving over the check raise

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Only glanced over the thread so sorry if this has been mentioned before but I think its fine to bet/fold the turn here especially because this is the fitz and peeling the flop to c/r the turn almost always means sets (or it did the last few times I played there)

                                                                        Im not sure I like checking the turn to bluff catch the river I might do it with a raggy Ace but I think we're too strong here to take that line

                                                                        As an aside (and no offense to the OP) but I think sometimes our live reads can be biased based on the last big hand we played with the villain as it sticks in our head more. Not saying the villain isnt loose or spewey but players tend to be more to the middle of the Vpip stat imo e.g. live nits arent playing 6/6 and losey gooseies for the most part arent playing 80/50

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Thanks for all the responses, really appreciate everyone giving their two cents.

                                                                          On the flop villain was betting/raising with any pair heads up. That's why his check call on the flop really gave the impression that he had no pair. A check raise on the flop would have been typical of this guy with middle or bottom pair. Betting out would have been typical of him hitting top pair.

                                                                          Also, to give a bit more context, villain's check raise really seemed weak on the turn (body language, speed of raise). I had been check raised of a few hands throughout the night and folded.

                                                                          So given the above, if I'm in a position that I feel strongly that I'm ahead, isn't it always correct to bet this turn? If Villain does have a FD (as I expect he might) then surely I should always bet this turn?

                                                                          When check raised in this position, and if Villain has a FD only, what
                                                                          is the optimal way to extract value here?

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by scoopabayor View Post
                                                                            Thanks for all the responses, really appreciate everyone giving their two cents.

                                                                            On the flop villain was betting/raising with any pair heads up. That's why his check call on the flop really gave the impression that he had no pair. A check raise on the flop would have been typical of this guy with middle or bottom pair. Betting out would have been typical of him hitting top pair.

                                                                            Also, to give a bit more context, villain's check raise really seemed weak on the turn (body language, speed of raise). I had been check raised of a few hands throughout the night and folded.

                                                                            So given the above, if I'm in a position that I feel strongly that I'm ahead, isn't it always correct to bet this turn? If Villain does have a FD (as I expect he might) then surely I should always bet this turn?

                                                                            When check raised in this position, and if Villain has a FD only, what
                                                                            is the optimal way to extract value here?
                                                                            I guess if you had an additional read that he will bluff at a high enough frequency if he misses then calling his c/r and folding when he fills and calling all his bluffs when he misses would extract the complete optimum in long run. If you think he'll give up when he misses then obv you just shove as a big favourite (this should be fairly obv tbh). What the frequency would need to be could be worked out but generally u won't know enough in these cases so shoving the turn is your best line.
                                                                            It would take a very nuanced read to put him on a FD only (I'm sure that can occur from time to time) but it's far more realistic to put him on a wider range which includes some other made hands and air.
                                                                            Last edited by bustamoves; 21-11-12, 00:43.

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                                              Is this thread in a time warp?
                                                                              I'm off to make a "This is Sparta" GIF except it's "This is The Fitz". People do all kinds of retarded shit live and the only way to play against them is to put your mindset into 2007. This effect seems to be magnified in The Fitz.
                                                                              "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by JamieCarra View Post
                                                                                Even if he is as crazy as you seem to think heis then a call of the raise with the plan to call on most / all rivers is going to be a far better option than shoving over the check raise
                                                                                This is totally wrong.

                                                                                The best way to play the turn and river depend on our opponents tendencies.

                                                                                To explain, take these three players. Up until the turn they all play the same, but they play the river differently.

                                                                                Player A) This guy plays the river very cautiously and is not very aggressive. He will value all hands that beat us and almost never bluff. A lot of maniacs are like this, they are only aggressive until a certain point in the hand. Against a player like this you can call the check raise on the turn and then obviously fold to a bet on the river.

                                                                                Player B) This guy will continue his bluff with almost his entire range. So against him we can call almost all rivers, maybe even some spades.

                                                                                Player C) This guy will bluff sometimes, and on good cards. Against him we are playing a dangerous guessing game. He will certainly bluff spades if he doesn't have them.

                                                                                Now if you can categorise the player into A or B, then you can flat call the turn, since we can make an informed decision about what to do. Player A allows us to get away from the hand cheaply. Player B allows us to pick off a bluff. If you have no idea what type of player he is on the river, then shoving might be better; because it can be very expensive to get the river decision wrong; and in some cases we are giving him a freeroll to beat us. The pot is big and is worthy of protection. When aggressive players check raise the turn with combo draws or pair plus draws, it isn't with the intention of folding.

                                                                                This is a very unusual hand, most of the time a turn raise means close to the nuts.

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