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Old 02-07-10, 02:53   #21
Mellor
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Sick spot Noel,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Multidraw View Post
calling is the worst option. you have no fold equity against short stack and it is a marginal hand. call or raise you are at least seeing a flop with the other big stack and with stack sizes position is not much of an advantage. with the action in front and the respect the players have to be showing to eachother i would have to fold pre in general but on the other hand there seems to be no weak spots and you might just have to gamble now if 3b is common otherwise its a clear fold.
What leads you0 to believe that there has been any displays of respect?
I imagine 3 bets are somewhat common with 100BB stacks on the table. It's hardly a clear fold. It's hardly a clear anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Multidraw View Post
benny spindler is a young very positionally aggressive nlhe player who will cause problems when average is 15bb. no idea on his plo game. he is more than likely being staked and as a result possibly a bit looser.
You have no idea of his PLO game, so you assume he is a loosing player?????
Why would you assume he is being staked, he has cashed in two WSOP events so far, so likely has played more than that.
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Originally Posted by ONE TIME View Post
im surprised you found this such a tough spot
i dont think you can call the mp raise knowing utg is prob gonna shove over the top
so pre flop its either raise or fold,i would def be folding here and waiting for a better spot
have a feeling this hand is annoying you bcause you folded but had you played it you would have won ?
Saying this is not a tough spot is stupid.
What is your reason for the fold? All there has been is an UTG open (from an active player) and a 3bet from a shortie looking to get it in.
I think Noel is also a bit past getting annoyed over hands he would of won.

Noel,
I considered folding, but I think that would be giving up too much in this spot. Given your image, I pot it to 15k (assuming antes) and hopefully get it in with the unknown. Your image and position should prevent a 5bet shove.
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Old 02-07-10, 06:36   #22
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- If we raise pot we can allow him to play perfectly against us.
- if we rasie small we have to call it off anyway if he does shove.
- if we call we open ourselves up to him shoving or else playing some potentially awkward postflop poker.
- if we fold we are folding the top of our range and it seems pretty weak.
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Old 02-07-10, 07:25   #23
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Out of 3 horrible options, folding seems best to me. I'd hate life doing it and be tilted for an hour but raising seems pretty ugh to me, and calling is out of the question imo. We never get it in good with your image and stacksize and calling opens us up to being shoved on pre-flop or being put in some disgusting spots post-flop.
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Old 02-07-10, 09:43   #24
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I said benny could potentially be playing quite loose not that he is a loser at plo. i just think its too difficult to play post flop with the soon to be dead pot from the shorty possibly killing the action and you might end up letting utg draw out on you if your ahead pre and as you said raising turns your hand face up. How will his position prevent a 5bet shove?

Last edited by Multidraw; 02-07-10 at 09:56.
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Old 02-07-10, 10:30   #25
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Not sure I can fold here tbh. By the sound of it MPs range is gonna be super super wide here. If UTG has the boots so be it, but it's gotta be a profitable 4bet here (IMO).
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Old 02-07-10, 13:19   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmeabreak View Post
- If we raise pot we can allow him to play perfectly against us.
- if we rasie small we have to call it off anyway if he does shove.
- if we call we open ourselves up to him shoving or else playing some potentially awkward postflop poker.
- if we fold we are folding the top of our range and it seems pretty weak.
fold for me, seems pretty weak but its such a horrible spot that I don't think its not.


I fold or shove here and the definite more likely outcome is a fold,

edit: read mp is tilting balls, this is a shove spot
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Old 02-07-10, 16:23   #27
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If you think folding is too weak then surely calling to induce a light shove from UTG is better than shoving. I think I fold though
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Old 02-07-10, 18:20   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianmc38 View Post
Not sure I can fold here tbh. By the sound of it MPs range is gonna be super super wide here. If UTG has the boots so be it, but it's gotta be a profitable 4bet here (IMO).
this imo.
Taking the buyin out of it, 4betting would be my default line given what we know about opponents.
UTG can only reshove with one hand (profitably), and taking your image into consideration, he'd maybe let go of weaker single suited ones (i may be oversimplifying this theory but it is laid out in Slotboom's book)
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Old 03-07-10, 16:06   #29
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i raise now this puts the pressure back on utg who is now in a situation just like yourself who if had a hand like yours should fold imo not worried about the player in mp who seems to have a wide range from what ive read plus you also have him well covered
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Old 05-07-10, 01:25   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoug View Post
I fold or shove here and the definite more likely outcome is a fold,

edit: read mp is tilting balls, this is a shove spot
You can't shove, its PLO.
still think 4betting to 14/15k is best
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Old 06-07-10, 00:18   #31
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shitty spot

calling 4200 and folding to bennys ship leaving you with 29k at 200/400 is hardly horrendous. raising means committing to the pot with KKds which is meh. even utg aggro monsters get dealt aaxx .if the kids popps you without aaxx to get HU with the tilt monkey you should berate the shit out of him hellmuth style
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Old 06-07-10, 04:09   #32
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i fold here

nearly all scenarios involve the SS being AI pre for 9k meaning he gets to see all
five cards for a 27k main pot leaving you and UTG fighting over a potential 48k side
you will be either a dog for the side pot or have something between 55% or 60% equity

then you have to be good at SD v the SS who will have 30% with a bag like 24j7 no suits and will probably
be better coordinated than that

the scenario where you both call the 4200 is very trcky to play oop given SS has only 4800 left

doesnt seem worth it

Last edited by dinekes; 06-07-10 at 17:35. Reason: side pot
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Old 08-07-10, 09:50   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellor View Post
You can't shove, its PLO.
still think 4betting to 14/15k is best
Your being fairly blunt with other peoples opinions without giving much insight into your own. if you 4bet to 15k what is your plan for the rest of the hand. what if utg 5bets? what if utg flats and mp shoves? would you be happy to get most or all of your stack in pre with KKds? still interested to know how op position will play a part in preventing a 5bet shove from utg? These are just the preflop situations nevermind playing post against another big stack with a dead pot.

Last edited by Multidraw; 08-07-10 at 10:08.
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Old 08-07-10, 09:54   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multidraw View Post
Your being fairly blunt with other peoples opinions without giving much insight into your own. if you 4bet to 15k what is your plan for the rest of the hand. what if utg 5bets? what if utg flats and mp shoves? what if utg flats, mp shoves, you call and utg pots? would you be happy to get most or all of your stack in pre with KKds? These are just the preflop situations nevermind playing post against another big stack with a dead pot.
Pretty sure Mellor meant its pot limit so you can't shove/massive overbet.
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Old 08-07-10, 10:49   #35
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i called, benny potted, mp called obv and i fold.
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Old 08-07-10, 10:51   #36
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What did Spindler have
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Old 08-07-10, 19:49   #37
Gimmeabreak
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he had AAxx, MP had a bag.
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Old 08-07-10, 22:33   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmeabreak View Post
im not joking when I tell you that i have spoke to some of the best PLO players in the world over here about this hand and each of them has said something along the lines of FML and scratched their head.
Are you sure this isnt because you were bothering them again asking for all the free advice Noel
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Old 08-10-10, 14:31   #39
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Great thread
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Old 09-10-10, 00:40   #40
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this is just gross
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