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    Strange hand, opinions please?

    This hand occured in a 250 side event at a recent festival!
    It was a 2 way pot, I was sitting in seat 8 villan seat 3.
    I opened standard raise with AJ(i have the chip lead or top 3 atleast)
    villan flats on the button(not a huge stack 25bb max) flops comes Ax5s8s
    as he's relitively short i decide to check, he checks back. Jc turn so i c/r and he flats. Bingo, Jh river! This is where the hand gets wierd!!!! I am thinking of a value bet, not looking at villan(decent player plays ept's and the likes) I come up with a value bet of about 60% of the pot, after i put out the bet i look up take hood down sun glasses off to see all his chips wer in the middle, roughly double my bet. (His bet obv made out of turn) first ruling awarded see's all chips pushed to me and stacked into my stack. Another ruling is then made and chips are re awarded to villan(also must note the dealer did not know villans stack when he shipped oot on the river) but went ahead an made a guess regardless and returned roughly 8k to villan his stack was infact 9,800 but of course after his questionable action I was not going to say this. Sorry for length, there's a little more to add but wanna see thoughts on this much to start!
    Last edited by Guest; 19-11-11, 19:40. Reason: Spelling mistakes

    #2
    ..

    Originally posted by lolfold
    Complete bs that its re-awarded cant believe this stood..
    I know, it gets better villans doubles threw a few times and comes back to knock me out looool! Have to laugh even when it cost me chance at 5k ftw! In fairness to td no hands had been played in between.

    Comment


      #3
      He should have had all his options back to him. As he pushed out of turn, you could have c/c his all in and his bet would have stood. As action changed when you bet, he should be able to take his chips back and decide to check, call or raise now. If the dealer awarded the pot without any further actions from the villian, i think he should actually get all his chips back. Lesson to pay attention to what your opponent is doing imo.

      Comment


        #4
        What a disaster/disgrace.. Where was this kilarney or dublin?

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by lolfold
          Complete bs that its re-awarded cant believe this stood..
          Great 1st post on the site.

          Something I forgot to ask about the time I heard this where you given the option the act again since there was a shove out of turn? ie: could you now check/bet instead of making the value bet. I know Jps rule on these situations so was pretty certain it was correct at the time.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
            Great 1st post on the site.
            Multi accounting ftw

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by AKDonk View Post
              He should have had all his options back to him. As he pushed out of turn, you could have c/c his all in and his bet would have stood. As action changed when you bet, he should be able to take his chips back and decide to check, call or raise now. If the dealer awarded the pot without any further actions from the villian, i think he should actually get all his chips back. Lesson to pay attention to what your opponent is doing imo.
              Maybe so, but I shouldnt have to worry about out of position angle shoots. I rarely stare down villan if there a decent player as to not give any reads away!
              Last edited by Guest; 19-11-11, 19:07.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by lolfold View Post
                What a disaster/disgrace.. Where was this kilarney or dublin?
                Happened at an event in Dublin

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                  Great 1st post on the site.

                  Something I forgot to ask about the time I heard this where you given the option the act again since there was a shove out of turn? ie: could you now check/bet instead of making the value bet. I know Jps rule on these situations so was pretty certain it was correct at the time.
                  No Ste options wer not given back, do u think they should have been? If they wer i obv would have tank called and laughed due to villan saying he didnt know he wasnt to act(he had button in front of him and the dealer hadnt said anything, nor had I talked or moved so he def knew I didnt check regardless of what he says) If he wants to explain his river ship feel free villan im curious to hear it anyhow.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by starrbar View Post
                    Maybe so, but I shouldnt have to worry about out of position angle shoots. I rarely stare down villan if there a decent player as to not give any reads away!
                    You dont have to stare him down to notice him pusjing his stack into the middle.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                      Great 1st post on the site.

                      Something I forgot to ask about the time I heard this where you given the option the act again since there was a shove out of turn? ie: could you now check/bet instead of making the value bet. I know Jps rule on these situations so was pretty certain it was correct at the time.
                      I dont think this is the rule. If he didnt act, i.e. putin the value bet, he would be able to check and the villians raisewould stand. As he has now completed his own action, villian should have all his options back. Seems to be a F up by the dealer after they had assumed action had closed, but ruling seems fine to me

                      Comment


                        #12
                        AngleShooter

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by AKDonk View Post
                          I dont think this is the rule. If he didnt act, i.e. putin the value bet, he would be able to check and the villians raisewould stand. As he has now completed his own action, villian should have all his options back. Seems to be a F up by the dealer after they had assumed action had closed, but ruling seems fine to me
                          No real mistake from dealer in opinion, apart from maybe not annoucing his all in. Not sure if there ment to, we can sit here all day saying I should have been watchin him but I wasnt it stil shouldnt excuse the oop shove which was in fact an angle imo, everything points towards it, dont like to admit it as I know villan but if it is how it is.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by AKDonk View Post
                            I dont think this is the rule. If he didnt act, i.e. putin the value bet, he would be able to check and the villians raisewould stand. As he has now completed his own action, villian should have all his options back. Seems to be a F up by the dealer after they had assumed action had closed, but ruling seems fine to me
                            This
                            Last edited by ghostface; 19-11-11, 19:27.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I hope someone from your table at the time comes on and gives the full hand history, also jps version would be good too. I was told this hand differently that someone tried to angle when jp explained the rules on the bet out of turn.

                              Also, there is a tournament section for this type of thread, you know that right?
                              Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                              My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                              My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                I hope someone from your table at the time comes on and gives the full hand history, also jps version would be good too. I was told this hand differently that someone tried to angle when jp explained the rules on the bet out of turn.
                                Heard this also

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  ..

                                  Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                  I hope someone from your table at the time comes on and gives the full hand history, also jps version would be good too. I was told this hand differently that someone tried to angle when jp explained the rules on the bet out of turn.

                                  Also, there is a tournament section for this type of thread, you know that right?
                                  Dont see why history would matter a whole lot, action before river isnt really what im pointing at its the river action! Maybe lappin who was at the table would give his re run of it. No didnt know that Jason, havint posted here on here in a while, its up now tho im sure danny or Kev will let me know if they would like me to move it.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    options should be giving back to player that bet out of turn imo

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                                      Heard this also
                                      Are u implying I tryed some sort of angle? If so could u maybe explain this? Maybe I picked u up wrong, if so my bad.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by starrbar View Post
                                        Dont see why history would matter a whole lot, action before river isnt really what im pointing at its the river action! Maybe lappin who was at the table would give his re run of it. No didnt know that Jason, havint posted here on here in a while, its up now tho im sure danny or Kev will let me know if they would like me to move it.
                                        No hand history is just the entire hand as it played out which includes the river situation, not all history between u n the person in question.

                                        Yeah anyone from the table will do fine, great to get a 1st hand observer who is not biast in anyway to come on and give there take on it. I don't know lappin personally so I can't say if he will come on or not. I am pretty sure a few things happened differently from what I heard.
                                        Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                        My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                        My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                          No hand history is just the entire hand as it played out which includes the river situation, not all history between u n the person in question.

                                          Yeah anyone from the table will do fine, great to get a 1st hand observer who is not biast in anyway to come on and give there take on it. I don't know lappin personally so I can't say if he will come on or not. I am pretty sure a few things happened differently from what I heard.
                                          complete lol at this, feel free so say what u heard and il tell u if its true or not, I wouldnt be posting it if I was gona give wrong action, me and JP talked threw this last night and that was the action weather u want to imply otherwise or not.
                                          Last edited by Guest; 19-11-11, 19:49.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by starrbar View Post
                                            complete lol at this, feel free so say what u heard and il tell u if its true or not, I wouldnt be posting it if I was gona give wrong action, me and JP talked threw this last night and that was the action weather u want to imply otherwise or not.
                                            Just 2 things, why are you saying 'lol' to my reasonable post? I have not implied anything just only I have heard different take on how this went.

                                            2nd if you chatted with Jp last night why are you still posting to see what the right ruling is? He is the best so the ruling is right.... I'm sorry but i'm a bit lost on this one.
                                            Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                            My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                            My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              River action:

                                              Eoin with reverse position tanking for a few seconds (i assume working out what amount to bet). Villain, unaware that its not his turn, makes an all-in bet. As he is moving his chips across the line (9kish), Eoin, unaware that villain is acting out of turn puts out his own bet - 6500ish. Dealer then points out the fact that the player has acted out of turn, meaning the action will stand if the action is unchanged but in this instance (due to Eoin's bet coming so hot on the heels of villain's bet - definitely occurring after but only a second after villain's out of turn bet), the action was deemed to having already changed, giving villain all his options back. He took the option to fold, keeping his 9k. Floor is called by Eoin who wants clarification. Floor rules in Eoin's favour. Villain leaves building. 3 minutes later, JP over-rules floor ruling. Villain is called back from LUAS and given, in error, less that what he had but still the majority of his 9K stack. 2 hours later, Eoin (who had almost 100K at 200/400) is KO'd from tourney by same villain.
                                              My website and Blog: dklappin.com

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Cool.....so what's the problem here? Everything seems in order bar the amount back to the shove oop.
                                                Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by LAPPIN View Post
                                                  River action:

                                                  Eoin with reverse position tanking for a few seconds (i assume working out what amount to bet). Villain, unaware that its not his turn, makes an all-in bet. As he is moving his chips across the line (9kish), Eoin, unaware that villain is acting out of turn puts out his own bet - 6500ish. Dealer then points out the fact that the player has acted out of turn, meaning the action will stand if the action is unchanged but in this instance (due to Eoin's bet coming so hot on the heels of villain's bet - definitely occurring after but only a second after villain's out of turn bet), the action was deemed to having already changed, giving villain all his options back. He took the option to fold, keeping his 9k. Floor is called by Eoin who wants clarification. Floor rules in Eoin's favour. Villain leaves building. 3 minutes later, JP over-rules floor ruling. Villain is called back from LUAS and given, in error, less that what he had but still the majority of his 9K stack. 2 hours later, Eoin (who had almost 100K at 200/400) is KO'd from tourney by same villain.
                                                  Thanks for post David, not sure what u mean about reverse position tho! Villan had the button? Its just my opinion anyway that it seemed like an angle as he had the button(there's always the chance it wasnt) just seems strange when he had the button is what im pointing out.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    .

                                                    Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                    Cool.....so what's the problem here? Everything seems in order bar the amount back to the shove oop.
                                                    He was awarded 8,100 he had in fact 9,800.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by starrbar View Post
                                                      He was awarded 8,100 he had in fact 9,800.
                                                      You should have realised this and gave him the extra 1700.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                        Just 2 things, why are you saying 'lol' to my reasonable post? I have not implied anything just only I have heard different take on how this went.

                                                        2nd if you chatted with Jp last night why are you still posting to see what the right ruling is? He is the best so the ruling is right.... I'm sorry but i'm a bit lost on this one.
                                                        It seems like ur implying Im comin on and giving ruling to favour myself, which im not I just put it up to see people's opinions. And to see what people's thoughts on the rule of someone shipping out of turn and getting stack back, not looking for smypathy just opinions dude, if u agree with ruling given then shouldnt be much more to say on the matter.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by starrbar View Post
                                                          Thanks for post David, not sure what u mean about reverse position tho! Villan had the button? Its just my opinion anyway that it seemed like an angle as he had the button(there's always the chance it wasnt) just seems strange when he had the button is what im pointing out.
                                                          Who is the person in question? this is the 2nd time you have accused him of angling so I'm sure he would like his say on the matter!

                                                          My question was why did you post the thread if you already know the ruling is correct and the chips should of been 9,600 not 8k.....?

                                                          Plz stop thinking I'm implying loads of different things, thanks. Yeah ruling is right from Jp.
                                                          Last edited by blaaaaaaah; 19-11-11, 20:34.
                                                          Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                          My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                          My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                            My question was why did you post the thread if you already know the ruling is correct and the chips should of been 9,600 not 8k.....?
                                                            Increase post count equity obv
                                                            They will be like WTF how does he always have the top of his range, and they will be saying that when you show up with like nine's - Jimmy Fricke
                                                            Nine's are the top of my range - Shaun Deeb

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Villain was me.
                                                              On IPB beers so ask any Q's and will answer 2mr.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                                Villain was me.
                                                                On IPB beers so ask any Q's and will answer 2mr.
                                                                Def an angle so. Hang him from a tree.

                                                                SPOILER
                                                                You can safely say that this was not an angleshoot. He does this all the time

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                                  Villain was me.
                                                                  On IPB beers so ask any Q's and will answer 2mr.
                                                                  This is going to be epic cant wait for tomorrow, I'm thinking "Eoin you may be sorry you posted this"
                                                                  Her sky-ness
                                                                  © 5starpool

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                                    Villain was me.
                                                                    On IPB beers so ask any Q's and will answer 2mr.
                                                                    Whats your favourite colour? Favourite molloys player?

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                                      Villain was me.
                                                                      On IPB beers so ask any Q's and will answer 2mr.
                                                                      Was there an angle of any sort in the hand?
                                                                      If so what was it?
                                                                      Are you a bit tilted by being accused of angling even tho your one of the most respected regulars on the Irish scene?
                                                                      Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                      My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                      My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                                        Was there an angle of any sort in the hand?
                                                                        If so what was it?
                                                                        Are you a bit tilted by being accused of angling even tho your one of the most respected regulars on the Irish scene?
                                                                        Ahem dunno about that
                                                                        Her sky-ness
                                                                        © 5starpool

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by starrbar View Post
                                                                          Thanks for post David, not sure what u mean about reverse position tho! .
                                                                          Reverse position, sometimes referred to as "Irish position", means being first to act. The basic idea is that being first to act can be an advantage because of the gap concept which states that you need a stronger hand to call than you do to bet. The stop and go is an example of using reverse position.
                                                                          My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by doke View Post
                                                                            Reverse position, sometimes referred to as "Irish position", means being first to act. The basic idea is that being first to act can be an advantage because of the gap concept which states that you need a stronger hand to call than you do to bet. The stop and go is an example of using reverse position.
                                                                            He was on the button, I was first to act, I had the betting lead coming to the river!

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                                              Who is the person in question? this is the 2nd time you have accused him of angling so I'm sure he would like his say on the matter!

                                                                              My question was why did you post the thread if you already know the ruling is correct and the chips should of been 9,600 not 8k.....?

                                                                              Plz stop thinking I'm implying loads of different things, thanks. Yeah ruling is right from Jp.
                                                                              Well its clear u ar, just dont bother post on the matter anymore Jason if uv not to contribute apart from stirring it up! Clearly said above it seemed like a bit of an angle but can never be sure so cop on to urself ur not 15 lad!
                                                                              Last edited by Guest; 20-11-11, 01:43. Reason: spelling mistake

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by starrbar View Post
                                                                                He was on the button, I was first to act, I had the betting lead coming to the river!
                                                                                Hence why he said you had reverse position...

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by JamieCarra View Post
                                                                                  Hence why he said you had reverse position...
                                                                                  My mistake thought he ment the way the action went was in reverse as in villan was first to act.

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by starrbar View Post
                                                                                    Well its clear u ar, just dont bother post on the matter anymore Jason if uv not to contribute apart from stirring it up! Clearly said above it seemed like a bit of an angle but can never be sure so cop on to urself ur not 15 lad!
                                                                                    i think this hand is very interesting,dont blame u for getting a little annoyed at some of the replys ,dont know either of ye.good thread anyway for those of us who are just average players

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by starrbar View Post
                                                                                      Well its clear u ar, just dont bother post on the matter anymore Jason if uv not to contribute apart from stirring it up! Clearly said above it seemed like a bit of an angle but can never be sure so cop on to urself ur not 15 lad!
                                                                                      I've conducted myself in a proper manner, if you don't like it that's fine, but maybe you should think about the words you use before you write them. Angling is a harsh and unfair word to use when you clearly do not know if Dice was doing this or not!

                                                                                      Also don't think of yourself so highly to talk down to me, I have not done it to you, I'd appreciate the same respect. I've given my side to what I've heard if you cannot respect that then don't post on a public forum where ppl might have a difference of opinion on matters to you, quiet simply you 'reverse position' your own choice of words when you try to say I'm the one who looks 15.

                                                                                      Like I said I have contributed information to the hand, I'm not on anyone's side if that's what your referring to and also I have agreed with Jps ruling, isn't that what you were after when posting You are right tho, I think I have contributed all I can now at this point.

                                                                                      Anyway sir we will let Dice handle the rest, I'm sure you will agree. Interesting thread tho I must say so kudos to you for that.
                                                                                      Last edited by blaaaaaaah; 20-11-11, 02:21.
                                                                                      Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                                      My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                                      My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        It kinda feels a bit like outside Supermacs at 4am on a Friday night here.

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Why do random smileys keep appearing in title of my posts so weird.
                                                                                          Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                                          My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                                          My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by imidg View Post
                                                                                            i think this hand is very interesting,dont blame u for getting a little annoyed at some of the replys ,dont know either of ye.good thread anyway for those of us who are just average players
                                                                                            Lol multi accounting?
                                                                                            Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                                            My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                                            My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                                                                              It kinda feels a bit like outside Supermacs at 4am on a Friday night here.
                                                                                              order me a garlic/cheese fries luv, will ya
                                                                                              Her sky-ness
                                                                                              © 5starpool

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post

                                                                                                I've conducted myself in a proper manner, if you don't like it that's fine, but maybe you should think about the words you use before you write them. Angling is a harsh and unfair word to use when you clearly do not know if Dice was doing this or not!

                                                                                                Also don't think of yourself so highly to talk down to me, I have not done it to you, I'd appreciate the same respect. I've given my side to what I've heard if you cannot respect that then don't post on a public forum where ppl might have a difference of opinion on matters to you, quiet simply you 'reverse position' your own choice of words when you try to say I'm the one who looks 15.

                                                                                                Like I said I have contributed information to the hand, I'm not on anyone's side if that's what your referring to and also I have agreed with Jps ruling, isn't that what you were after when posting You are right tho, I think I have contributed all I can now at this point.

                                                                                                Anyway sir we will let Dice handle the rest, I'm sure you will agree. Interesting thread tho I must say so kudos to you for that.
                                                                                                Fair enough, I wasnt so much disagreeing with the ruling, I just dont like the rule as it can be unfair in some cases! Not that it shouldnt have been made if its the rule in Jp game then its the rule! I respect Jp thats why I didnt put up any resistance at the table. Yep I do all I want to know is what was the thinking that led Ciaran to ship, if I can understand it then my mind might change about the situation! Anyways we'll leave that until another day!

                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                                                                  Lol multi accounting?
                                                                                                  no m8.just saying as i see it,maybe theres some history between u 2 i dont know.maybe u knew about this hand b4 this post seems like u might have,i dont post here much as u know but i do read the posts regular enough and u seem to know alot about poker more than the average player probably more than me

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Hi Everyone,

                                                                                                    Ok I'm going to try and kill two birds with one stone.

                                                                                                    In this thread Kie diddy http://www.irishpokerboards.com/foru...ad.php?t=11740
                                                                                                    asked about my action out of turn rule which was posted in the thread by donkeypokertour (ian, post #4).

                                                                                                    Later in that thread doke mentions that he believes the person acting out of turn benefits and markc asks about my thought process on the ruling.

                                                                                                    Firstly I'd like to make it very clear that when I first started running poker games 7 years ago, I used to make any out of turn bet stay in the pot!! My thought process was, (you made a mistake, chips stay in the pot).

                                                                                                    Then some years ago, this ruling was being discussed at an event that I was working at with some senior WSOP TD's, and they had a very different look on the ruling to me.

                                                                                                    Before I go any further, I'd like to say I'm not one to go with the flow and will argue rulings with TD's I respect all the time, but if faced with a better ruling or procedure I'm very willing to change to what would be better for everyone concerned.

                                                                                                    Ok so back to action out of turn ruling...

                                                                                                    Say 2 players see a flop, both players are at it, player A is first to act but player B goes all-in out of turn.

                                                                                                    If we use chips stay in the pot rule we are now allowing Player B to rod Player A from bluffing and going all-in himself. Putting Player A (the person who is due to act 1st at a big disadvantage).

                                                                                                    If we use the change in action rule we are now putting the advantage back with player A (the person who should act first). If he wants to bluff the flop, he can and player B's chips are no longer committed to the pot. If player A flop's the nuts and he wants player B's chips to stay in the pot he can check making player B go all-in.

                                                                                                    Ok now to the ruling at the Mini WSOP....

                                                                                                    Nick O'Hora came up to me at the reg desk straight away after the 1st ruling was made (by Shawn Lytte who I consider a very good TD, he TD's at the WSOP). Anyway Nick explains the situation to me, I then speak to Shawn.

                                                                                                    Shawn made his ruling in good faith thinking that Eoin had raised and Ciaran had then gone all in, almost straight away (but after Eoin's bet). However Nick seen what happen and knew that the wrong ruling was after been made. Instead of over ruling Shawn straight away he told the dealer not to deal any more hands and came to me (probably knowing that I’d get called anyway).

                                                                                                    I collected information from both Shawn and Nick then go to the table with the information that I had. Before I made any ruling I stated the facts that I had (I.e. Ciaran went all-in out of turn, Eoin may not have been paying attention or didn't see Ciaran's all-in and then bet after Ciaran went all-in) and everyone agreed. Including Eoin. I'd also like to state that Ciaran wasn't at the table when I first arrived so he wasn't even there to have the chance to get his say in, however he did return to the table before I left.

                                                                                                    I make the new (correct) ruling and the only dispute is the amount of chips due back to Ciaran, I get 3 different answers (Ciaran, Eoin and the dealer) and take the lower of all three which was 8200. Eoin has stated that he knew that Ciaran's all-in was for over 9k.

                                                                                                    So Eoin did gain an advantage in the tournament from this hand.
                                                                                                    €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                                                                                                    Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                                                                                                    €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                                                                                                    CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      Excellent and thorough reply JP... While I am not a big fan of that particular rule in a vacuum, it was the rule in play and you carried out your job as TD perfectly, employing it correctly in this particular situation.

                                                                                                      Eoin is IMO out of line accusing the villain in this instance of angle-shooting. The villain clearly acted in error, an error Eoin could and would have punished to the full had he noticed the action before moving his own chips across the line.

                                                                                                      Not being familiar with the vast majority of Irish guys on the scene, I am loath to comment on a particular player and his/her reputation with regard to conduct but in my world, an accusation of angle-shooting is a hugely serious one and should be done only with a significant amount of evidence to back up the claim. A poker player's reputation is his bond and to sully that or begin a campaign to sully it in a forum such as this is an act of calumny.

                                                                                                      Think carefully, take stock of the incident with objectivity and choose your words wisely Eoin before you proceed down the path you have begun taking here.
                                                                                                      Last edited by LAPPIN; 20-11-11, 04:51.
                                                                                                      My website and Blog: dklappin.com

                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        Originally posted by LAPPIN View Post
                                                                                                        Excellent and thorough reply JP... While I am not a big fan of that particular rule in a vacuum, it was the rule in play and you carried out your job as TD perfectly, employing it correctly in this particular situation.

                                                                                                        Eoin is IMO out of line accusing the villain in this instance of angle-shooting. The villain clearly acted in error, an error Eoin could and would have punished to the full had he noticed the action before moving his own chips across the line.

                                                                                                        Not being familiar with the vast majority of Irish guys on the scene, I am loath to comment on a particular player and his/her reputation with regard to conduct but in my world, an accusation of angle-shooting is a hugely serious one and should be done only with a significant amount of evidence to back the claim up. A poker player's reputation is his bond and to sully that or begin a campaign to sully it in a forum such as this is an act of calumny.

                                                                                                        Think carefully, take stock of the incident with objectivity and choose your words wisely Eoin before you proceed down the path you have begun taking here.
                                                                                                        Ansewer one question, how can u be so sure it wasnt?

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                                                                                                          #53
                                                                                                          Originally posted by starrbar View Post
                                                                                                          Ansewer one question, how can u be so sure it wasnt?
                                                                                                          Saying this I am not saying for a fact it was, but how can u say for a fact it wasnt David.

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                                                                                                            #54
                                                                                                            I cannot say with certainty that it was not an angle-shoot. I have simply given you my opinion and advice on proceeding carefully and with dignity as a decision by you to call into question an other poker player's conduct is a serious accusation.

                                                                                                            If you really believe you were wronged, then you have every right to make your case. But I warn you, making an opinion such as that public as you have done here will be something you cannot easily step back from. If public opinion sides with the villain in your story (as I believe it will as the burden of proof is on he who makes the accusation and you will not be able to show definitively that there was intent to angle you in this incident), it will immediately and rightly be your character that is called into question.

                                                                                                            I wish to say no more on this but for your own sake here Eoin, tread carefully.
                                                                                                            My website and Blog: dklappin.com

                                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                                              #55
                                                                                                              Originally posted by LAPPIN View Post
                                                                                                              Excellent and thorough reply JP... While I am not a big fan of that particular rule in a vacuum, it was the rule in play and you carried out your job as TD perfectly, employing it correctly in this particular situation.

                                                                                                              Eoin is IMO out of line accusing the villain in this instance of angle-shooting. The villain clearly acted in error, an error Eoin could and would have punished to the full had he noticed the action before moving his own chips across the line.

                                                                                                              Not being familiar with the vast majority of Irish guys on the scene, I am loath to comment on a particular player and his/her reputation with regard to conduct but in my world, an accusation of angle-shooting is a hugely serious one and should be done only with a significant amount of evidence to back up the claim. A poker player's reputation is his bond and to sully that or begin a campaign to sully it in a forum such as this is an act of calumny.

                                                                                                              Think carefully, take stock of the incident with objectivity and choose your words wisely Eoin before you proceed down the path you have begun taking here.
                                                                                                              who knows what was in the villians head maybe he saw hero counting out chips for a bet and decided if i put all my chips in first it will make him change his mind.if he had no hand he would of had to fold.maybe instead of making a mistake it was a very smart play that back fired,only the villian really knows this
                                                                                                              Last edited by imidg; 20-11-11, 13:43. Reason: makes it look like i know him

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                                                                                                                #56
                                                                                                                Prity much have said all I want to for now, didnt say oh it was defenatly an angle just that it seemed that it could have been. We can go about it but as imidg said no1 will ever truely know apart from villan, hopefully his thought process given 2moro will explain how he came to the conclusion that I had checked and we can all move on. I will still dislike the rule tho, and a lot of people I play with think the same. Once chips enter the pot imo they should stay in, that is all.
                                                                                                                Last edited by Guest; 20-11-11, 05:28.

                                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                                  #57
                                                                                                                  Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                                                                                  Hi Everyone,

                                                                                                                  Ok I'm going to try and kill two birds with one stone.

                                                                                                                  In this thread Kie diddy http://www.irishpokerboards.com/foru...ad.php?t=11740
                                                                                                                  asked about my action out of turn rule which was posted in the thread by donkeypokertour (ian, post #4).

                                                                                                                  Later in that thread doke mentions that he believes the person acting out of turn benefits and markc asks about my thought process on the ruling.

                                                                                                                  Firstly I'd like to make it very clear that when I first started running poker games 7 years ago, I used to make any out of turn bet stay in the pot!! My thought process was, (you made a mistake, chips stay in the pot).

                                                                                                                  Then some years ago, this ruling was being discussed at an event that I was working at with some senior WSOP TD's, and they had a very different look on the ruling to me.

                                                                                                                  Before I go any further, I'd like to say I'm not one to go with the flow and will argue rulings with TD's I respect all the time, but if faced with a better ruling or procedure I'm very willing to change to what would be better for everyone concerned.

                                                                                                                  Ok so back to action out of turn ruling...

                                                                                                                  Say 2 players see a flop, both players are at it, player A is first to act but player B goes all-in out of turn.

                                                                                                                  If we use chips stay in the pot rule we are now allowing Player B to rod Player A from bluffing and going all-in himself. Putting Player A (the person who is due to act 1st at a big disadvantage).

                                                                                                                  If we use the change in action rule we are now putting the advantage back with player A (the person who should act first). If he wants to bluff the flop, he can and player B's chips are no longer committed to the pot. If player A flop's the nuts and he wants player B's chips to stay in the pot he can check making player B go all-in.

                                                                                                                  Ok now to the ruling at the Mini WSOP....

                                                                                                                  Nick O'Hora came up to me at the reg desk straight away after the 1st ruling was made (by Shawn Lytte who I consider a very good TD, he TD's at the WSOP). Anyway Nick explains the situation to me, I then speak to Shawn.

                                                                                                                  Shawn made his ruling in good faith thinking that Eoin had raised and Ciaran had then gone all in, almost straight away (but after Eoin's bet). However Nick seen what happen and knew that the wrong ruling was after been made. Instead of over ruling Shawn straight away he told the dealer not to deal any more hands and came to me (probably knowing that I’d get called anyway).

                                                                                                                  I collected information from both Shawn and Nick then go to the table with the information that I had. Before I made any ruling I stated the facts that I had (I.e. Ciaran went all-in out of turn, Eoin may not have been paying attention or didn't see Ciaran's all-in and then bet after Ciaran went all-in) and everyone agreed. Including Eoin. I'd also like to state that Ciaran wasn't at the table when I first arrived so he wasn't even there to have the chance to get his say in, however he did return to the table before I left.

                                                                                                                  I make the new (correct) ruling and the only dispute is the amount of chips due back to Ciaran, I get 3 different answers (Ciaran, Eoin and the dealer) and take the lower of all three which was 8200. Eoin has stated that he knew that Ciaran's all-in was for over 9k.

                                                                                                                  So Eoin did gain an advantage in the tournament from this hand.
                                                                                                                  dont agree with this rule and heres why,player b goes allin out of turn so you you give the advantage back to player a and he can bluff at the pot if he wants he,d want to be a madman to bluff here if he thinks player b is gonna move in, hows is that an advantage,

                                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                                    #58
                                                                                                                    Originally posted by imidg View Post
                                                                                                                    dont agree with this rule and heres why,player b goes allin out of turn so you you give the advantage back to player a and he can bluff at the pot if he wants he,d want to be a madman to bluff here if he thinks player b is gonna move in, hows is that an advantage,
                                                                                                                    Wow wake up man!, jp's rule here protects player A when he has no hand form being blown off a pot by an out of turn bet. Its happened to me in cash games a couple of times where a villain will shove out of turn and show me a bluff, and ive no hand to call him. Its preventing a player from benefitting from actin out of turn. You wouldn't need to be a madman to bluff here sometimes depending your opponent and the situation.

                                                                                                                    As for the rest of this, we havent heard Ciarans side of this but i can say with almost absolute certainty that this was never an attempted angle shoot. He must've thought u checked or something.

                                                                                                                    Lastly starrbar, you've once again shown your immaturity and serious lack of reasonableness here, Jason's posts we're reasoned and coherent responses to this thread which weren't just 'stirring it up' as u put it. Also suggesting seasoned irish regs of angling is another seriously questionable thing to be doin here. You have previous for this type of childishness and i think you should put more thought into what you put on here in future. You're gonna have to meet these people at tourneys mate!

                                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                                      #59
                                                                                                                      Originally posted by alanmc101 View Post
                                                                                                                      Wow wake up man!, jp's rule here protects player A when he has no hand form being blown off a pot by an out of turn bet. Its happened to me in cash games a couple of times where a villain will shove out of turn and show me a bluff, and ive no hand to call him. Its preventing a player from benefitting from actin out of turn. You wouldn't need to be a madman to bluff here sometimes depending your opponent and the situation.

                                                                                                                      As for the rest of this, we havent heard Ciarans side of this but i can say with almost absolute certainty that this was never an attempted angle shoot. He must've thought u checked or something.

                                                                                                                      Lastly starrbar, you've once again shown your immaturity and serious lack of reasonableness here, Jason's posts we're reasoned and coherent responses to this thread which weren't just 'stirring it up' as u put it. Also suggesting seasoned irish regs of angling is another seriously questionable thing to be doin here. You have previous for this type of childishness and i think you should put more thought into what you put on here in future. You're gonna have to meet these people at tourneys mate!
                                                                                                                      I guarantee there's lots off people who agree with imidg and im willing to side bet on this! I could name atleast five that ud know, obv not on this put in private yes!

                                                                                                                      I wrote to Ciaran well before I posted this and asked for an explanation in his thinking of why he shipped the river oop and no reply!

                                                                                                                      And as for Jason man he was clearly takin the mickey, like im not jus gona sit hear an listen to that its nothing to do with how mature some1 is! I dont know Ciaran aswell as u but the oot bet ruined my game an set me on tilt, costing me any chance of holding the chip lead to a win so surely u can see why I wasnt happy, I duno maybe u cant but thats how I feel about it anyway. Doesnt bother me to meet any1 wer all there to take eachothers money anyway. Its a game that has to be takin with a grain of salt imo. Anyways he will say his part 2moro and i'll re evaluate then and either choose to believe him or not, not gona make my mind up on other people's thoughts. If his thought process makes clear an utter sense to me il apologise but as it is I asked for explanation threw pm close to a week ago and didnt get one.
                                                                                                                      Last edited by Guest; 20-11-11, 07:26.

                                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                                        #60
                                                                                                                        Originally posted by alanmc101 View Post
                                                                                                                        Wow wake up man!, jp's rule here protects player A when he has no hand form being blown off a pot by an out of turn bet. Its happened to me in cash games a couple of times where a villain will shove out of turn and show me a bluff, and ive no hand to call him. Its preventing a player from benefitting from actin out of turn. You wouldn't need to be a madman to bluff here sometimes depending your opponent and the situation.

                                                                                                                        As for the rest of this, we havent heard Ciarans side of this but i can say with almost absolute certainty that this was never an attempted angle shoot. He must've thought u checked or something.

                                                                                                                        Lastly starrbar, you've once again shown your immaturity and serious lack of reasonableness here, Jason's posts we're reasoned and coherent responses to this thread which weren't just 'stirring it up' as u put it. Also suggesting seasoned irish regs of angling is another seriously questionable thing to be doin here. You have previous for this type of childishness and i think you should put more thought into what you put on here in future. You're gonna have to meet these people at tourneys mate!
                                                                                                                        maybe im missing something here i still think its a disadvantage maybe not as much as the old rule,how about a new rule hand dead if u act out of turn bit harsh u might think, no angling and players might pay more attention when in a pot

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