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Shipping mid-range hands to pick up 10-15% increase in stack

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    Shipping mid-range hands to pick up 10-15% increase in stack

    2 hands from games tonight. Not bothered about the results as in these situations when called you should be in trouble. Just wondering if others ship as often as I would in these spots:

    Hand 1:

    Cash League Final. 20 left, 6 or 7 paid. Blinds 600/1200.

    Hero is dealt 22 UTG playing 13,800.

    Table is 6-handed. 2 large stacks and others are similar to ours. Not overly agro or passive table overall.

    Standard ship?

    Hand 2:

    Scalps tournament. Early doors, well off the money. Blinds 150/300.

    Hero is dealt AJ in the SB playing ~11k.

    Table is loose passive with everyone looking to hit that big hand that will set them up for the tournament. All standard raises are being looked up by ATC so being OOP here is pretty horrible. Anyway, 3 limpers (non having the potential to have AK or a pair over 77) leave the pot at 1350 when it comes around to me.

    Is shipping bad?

    My thoughts on it are it's bad due to stack being 36BB so loads of play there. But also it's not bad as any raise up to 3k is getting called at least once and if they hit top pair or any pair+draw hand they won't be folding. Probably a bad play but I just wanted to take the dead money and kill the action there and then.

    #2
    Hand 1: I fold 22 UTG

    Hand 2: I don't like shipping 36BBs to win 4. I just raise and play poker. You have a lot of hands in their range dominated.

    Comment


      #3
      Hand 1: I fold, think you can find a better spot then this to get your money in

      Hand 2: Don't think I shove here, you have the range of hands the other players have, personally I don't mind a bet for 2-3k, as you said the table dynamic might stop you from doing this, if its as loosey goosey as you say, get it in and hope it holds against kq, 3's etc.
      Jayzus, Sheila! I forgot me feckin' trousers

      Comment


        #4
        is there antes in hand 1?

        hand 1 ship

        hand 2 complete
        https://twitter.com/#!/PadraigONeill89

        Comment


          #5
          Hand one is 6 handed id often just ship on the blind a pair 6 handed shipping 10bbs is fine in any position obv the later the better.

          Hand two i doubt anyone calls a ship unless the bb has a big hand i dont mind it to be honest like if u 3x it gonna get 2 callers minimum and then play the hand oop
          so shipping is fine imo.

          Comment


            #6
            Hand 1: Standard ship. Folding would be very bad with 11bbs and the table being 6-handed.

            Hand 2: Shoving is not awful giving reads on players but I think it's too much risk given the rewards. Prob just raise 5/6x. Your raise should look very strong to bad live players and shudnt get called by them unless they are very bad. Even if 1 or 2 limpers call you should be aware that they will have to flop pretty big in such a bloated pot to continue with their hand.

            Comment


              #7
              hmmm ....in hand one i be folding UTG even with 11 BB as you are 'hoping' for folds..table isnt out of line it appears and unless hero has a nit image any pair88+ and KQ+ likely to call....(lower range imho)..late pos i have no prob with shove / if blinds pass through still 10bb's and imho loadsa fold equity in that situ and rather have a paint card in bank ..DU is massive it seems with stack sizes so rather wait tbh for better spot

              2nd hand i rather call here oop and assess the flop or just fold (suited i call / non suited i lean towards fold)..with 36bb i feel one can check/float any board and make a move on turn or river if texture is right but also get away if action is bad..aipf for a ~12% stack increase if all fold or a race is too risky imho

              A lot depends i feel on ur image/reputation in both spots

              interesting comments so far

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by anymorejokes View Post
                is there antes in hand 1?
                nope

                Comment


                  #9
                  I probably ship both, 2 is awkward because if the std is poor I'll expect a raise of ~2k to be called in at least one spot so I wouldn't bother raising normally. If the standard is decent I would raise to 1500+.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by anymorejokes View Post
                    hand 1 ship

                    hand 2 complete
                    this
                    "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Hand 1
                      Shipping 22 utg isnt terrible but I would still be likely to fold depending on table dynamics!!!

                      Hand 2
                      Shipping AJ in that spot is terrible, Just complete and play post flop so many better spots to get over 30 bbs in the middle!!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Link to thread I started which is kinda similar to hand 1.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          My personal default is to fold 1 but I might shove depending on the table.
                          Shoving is fine though of course.

                          Shoving 2 is crazy, we have way too many chips.
                          I know you pick it up uncontested a hell of a lot but you also probably get people limp calling your shove with AQ and 88 in tournaments like that.

                          Id complete sometimes and raise sometimes depending on how easy they fold to pressure postflop.
                          Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                          I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                          None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Would have expected everyone to disagree with me on hand two, but I'd definitely just call it too. If you make it any type of standard raise, you're just gonna get called by everyone, because these type of players just don't like folding pre. Anything bigger just inflates a pot you'll be playing out of position against calling stations.

                            Don't like shoving either, just too much risk for such a small reward. By limping, your hand is pretty well disguised too, so you'll probably get paid off by worse aces if you hit. These players really hate folding.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by TheDrunkenOne View Post
                              2nd hand i rather call here oop and assess the flop or just fold (suited i call / non suited i lean towards fold)
                              Really, you don't complete the sb with AJoff to limpers in a game like it's described?

                              Seems the perfect spot to limp the sb and completely under rep your hand against the type of players who may even stack off with QJ, KJ, type hands (which are very likely limping hands from weak live players) on Q or J high flops.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by LTL View Post
                                Really, you don't complete the sb with AJoff to limpers in a game like it's described?

                                Seems the perfect spot to limp the sb and completely under rep your hand against the type of players who may even stack off with QJ, KJ, type hands (which are very likely limping hands from weak live players) on Q or J high flops.
                                as stated i lean towards folding unsuited as there may be suited aces limping and an A rag rag flop hits them and be very hard to fold without seeing at least one more street. I feel there are too many variables you are up against unless you nail a flop or a huge draw and rather not play oop with this hand

                                I wouldnt fold everytime but defo consider it

                                Is this sooo wrong?

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  i'm shipping hand 1 100% of the time 6 handed, I wonder what range ppl who are saying they fold are hoping for...shove atc in lp & have 0 equity wen called?-genuine question btw! if looked up with deuces we're probabaly flipping which is just life wen u hav 11bb..

                                  Hand 2: i tend to agree with the majority of posters that it's too big of a risk early, if you get looked with AJ by a limper you're probabaly flipping with 44 with against a bad player who "knew" u had AKo or flipping with 44 against a good player..well erm...who actually knew you had AK type of hand (as it reeks of it), and flipping 36bb is not were we want to be early on i dont think...end result standard raise to thin the field or just call depending on mood

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Hand 1 is the easiest ship ever. Cant understand people folding a pair 6 handed with 12 bigs

                                    Hand 2 I usually complete but sometimes fold depending on who has position on me. Dislike Aj out of position

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                                      Hand 1 is the easiest ship ever. Cant understand people folding a pair 6 handed with 12 bigs

                                      Hand 2 I usually complete but sometimes fold depending on who has position on me. Dislike Aj out of position
                                      U fold AJ in that spot??? That has to be a joke playin nealy 40 bbs in a multiway pot which is limped around u fold AJ???
                                      Probably the ridiculous thing I've ever read!!!

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Having consulted pushbot charts:

                                        22 is only a ship if villains calling ranges are constricted to 88+, ATs+, AJo+ KQs.

                                        A calling range of: 55+,A8s+,KQs,ATo+,KQo and you should only be shoving pairs that are greater than 55.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                                          U fold AJ in that spot??? That has to be a joke playin nealy 40 bbs in a multiway pot which is limped around u fold AJ???
                                          Probably the ridiculous thing I've ever read!!!
                                          Thank you

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                                            Thank you
                                            Very Welcome!!!

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              1:
                                              Ship the fucker anyway considering you have 11bigs and are still a bit off the money. Be in it to win it.

                                              2:
                                              Madness to ship that. If they are bad enough to call with worse you should be able to outplay them easily with that stack.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by TheDrunkenOne View Post
                                                as stated i lean towards folding unsuited as there may be suited aces limping and an A rag rag flop hits them and be very hard to fold without seeing at least one more street. I feel there are too many variables you are up against unless you nail a flop or a huge draw and rather not play oop with this hand

                                                I wouldnt fold everytime but defo consider it

                                                Is this sooo wrong?

                                                In my opinion it is pretty bad, your basically saying you fold because on A high flops or 2 suit flops, your worried that A rags may have got there or have picked up flushdraws. I know AJ oop is hard to play but your ahead so much more often on all A or J high flops than you are behind and given that a lot of weak live players can't fold 1 pair hands especially as i said QJ or KJ on J high flops (which are often limped multiway) I just think it's a mistake to fold pre.

                                                As you said it's hard to fold without seeing one more street but you can always just c/c and reevaluate turns if this is your worry and given that it's live it's a lot more read dependent.

                                                Interesting to see if there's many that fold pre instead of completing or raising.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                                  Having consulted pushbot charts:

                                                  22 is only a ship if villains calling ranges are constricted to 88+, ATs+, AJo+ KQs.

                                                  A calling range of: 55+,A8s+,KQs,ATo+,KQo and you should only be shoving pairs that are greater than 55.
                                                  Anyway you could show this, find it hard to believe

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    I'll put up a link to the excel sheet when I'm back at my PC.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      I cant see anything else other than a shove in hand 1.

                                                      Hand 2, with nearly 40 bb's, I think I just make it up in the sb. Someone else said earlier that your shoving nearly 40 bb's to win 4, and it just aint worth it.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                                        Having consulted pushbot charts:

                                                        22 is only a ship if villains calling ranges are constricted to 88+, ATs+, AJo+ KQs.

                                                        A calling range of: 55+,A8s+,KQs,ATo+,KQo and you should only be shoving pairs that are greater than 55.

                                                        Is that for 6 handed or full-ring?

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          6 handed, UTG.

                                                          Play with the pushbot chart a bit. You can d/l it here:

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                                            22 is only a ship if villains calling ranges are constricted to 88+, ATs+, AJo+ KQs.
                                                            If the five of them have a similar calling range to that (seems about right for live, 1 mightened with KQ and another might with 77) its 7.4% of hands on avrg.

                                                            7.4*5 = 37% of the time we'll be called and 22 has 37.076% against that range so you can see its startin to look like an almost breakeven play


                                                            63% of the time we'll win the 1800 = +1134
                                                            37% of the time we'll have +37%eq & win apx 28k = +3833
                                                            37% of the time we'll have -63%eq & lose 13800 = -4748

                                                            1134 + 3833 - 4748 = +234 cEv

                                                            in a one off live tourney i can see myself shoving because id rather double up or just go home but in 180s i might min-raise fold, its actually the most +ev option, depending on table/icm factors/time left in level.

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Even if people are calling perfectly, the 22 is an unexploitable shove.

                                                              Chart below.
                                                              Attached Files

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Raising a standard amount in Hand 2 is fine. 6BB as mentioned above sounds good to me. Remember you don't have to cbet the flop when you miss, and are in fact exploiting your opponents when you don't cbet. Getting villian(s) to call with worse pre is fine at this stack size, because of the chips you'll make when you hit and they can't fold 2nd pair. You can also try to get to showdown cheaply with A high if you can pick off some obvious steal attempts, but that really depends on the table (and their holdings)

                                                                I'd say around 30 bigs it starts to become marginal, because at that stack size you want to win every single pot you've put any decent amount of chips into. I'd complete with 30BB. 20 bigs is a supermegainstafistpumpshove.
                                                                "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                                                                  Even if people are calling perfectly, the 22 is an unexploitable shove.

                                                                  Chart below.
                                                                  Tony guerrera?

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by NoRiverRequired View Post
                                                                    Tony guerrera?
                                                                    Indeed sir

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by LTL View Post
                                                                      In my opinion it is pretty bad, your basically saying you fold because on A high flops or 2 suit flops, .
                                                                      I think u find that i said i lean towards folding and not all the time and dependant on a lotta variables, examples given were examples ..didnt want to clutter up other dangerous flops(basically broadway combos and rags)
                                                                      oop you likely be involved for at least another street on most flops and still (barring nut flop) no idea where you are imho......to me thats horrible position to be in

                                                                      Comment

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