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    correct ruling? was i in the wrong

    this hand happened at a recent festival.
    it was a four handed pot . the board ran out 77J32 with no flushes possible.
    it was checked down on the river so the dealer says declare hands.
    so i say "one pair" (the pair on the board) and suddenly 2 players muck.
    then an old guy shows an ace high and mucks his hand face down very quickly.
    the dealer says "is anybody gonna show their hand here?"
    so i flip my 10 9 and the dealer passes me the pot.
    so the old guy wasnt pleased, so a ruling is called.
    the td told the dealer to go into the muck , find the guys hand and flip it.
    then to pass the pot from my stack.
    i didnt bother arguing as i didnt deserve the pot anyway.

    was this the correct ruling. was i in the wrong? bearing in mind this is poker we play.
    its hardly a game of honesty!

    #2
    Originally posted by devilfishwaldo View Post
    this hand happened at a recent festival.
    it was a four handed pot . the board ran out 77J32 with no flushes possible.
    it was checked down on the river so the dealer says declare hands.
    so i say "one pair" (the pair on the board) and suddenly 2 players muck.
    then an old guy shows an ace high and mucks his hand face down very quickly.
    the dealer says "is anybody gonna show their hand here?"
    so i flip my 10 9 and the dealer passes me the pot.
    so the old guy wasnt pleased, so a ruling is called.
    the td told the dealer to go into the muck , find the guys hand and flip it.
    then to pass the pot from my stack.
    i didnt bother arguing as i didnt deserve the pot anyway.

    was this the correct ruling. was i in the wrong? bearing in mind this is poker we play.
    its hardly a game of honesty!
    Why are you waiting to turn your hand?
    surely 10 hi cant beat three other people in the pot,
    unless your angling to get them all to fold.

    Dealers should know who has to declare first
    as the guy mucked i think you should have won the pot

    however in fairness the td done the right thing and took chips back off an angle shooter who didnt declare that the mucker had him beaten and was willing to sneak chips he should never have won into his stack shitty behaviour i think.

    Comment


      #3
      ....I think you were completely right, and the decision to go to the muck to take there cards out was horrendous. You declared 1 pair, which you correctly had...I dont see what the problem was with you doing that...The guy that had 1 pair ace high should of declaring his hand instead of mucking it..And i think the decision to go to the muck, pick out his hand, and take back the chips was an awful decision...sure what woulda happened if you mixed your chips up, do they spend 10 minutes reinacting the exact chips???????/...

      Comment


        #4
        I think this is a very straight forward bad ruling imo. No matter what happened or didn't happen, once cards touch the much...they are/should be dead - end of story.

        In this instance was it up to you to show your hand first? If so, then you should have flipped it over and let everyone see it. The fact that you didn't, one might argue that it could have been an angle shoot on your behalf. In saying that, its also up to the dealer to ask you to show your cards(if your first to show them at showdown), and its also the responsibility of each player to protect their hand until they're certain they've lost the lost.

        If I was called for a ruling on this, I'd award the pot to you as your hand is the only live hand, explain the way it could be seen as a lousy angle shoot and move on.

        That's just my take on it. I'm sure they will be a few more response's and views on this.
        NextStopWhoKnows

        Comment


          #5
          I don't believe this was an angle shoot on your part at all. I'd suggest you declared 1 pair in part to indicate you had nothing better than the pair on the board (before the need for kickers are to be declared).

          If the other guys at the table aren't able to identify the fact they also had 1 pair, & the guy with the ace kicker didn't recognise his hand is now firmly in the running, they didn't deserve the pot IMO.

          Agree with above, regardless of your intentions, once the hands are mucked they're gone & it's a lesson to be learned for those that mucked prematurely.
          .
          . .

          Comment


            #6
            Personally I would award the pot to the other guy in this example.

            The OP say that the old guy SHOWS ace high, it's not clear if he showed both of his cards or not but Ace high is clearly the winning and should win in my opinon.
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            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
              Personally I would award the pot to the other guy in this example.

              The OP say that the old guy SHOWS ace high, it's not clear if he showed both of his cards or not but Ace high is clearly the winning and should win in my opinon.
              So if someone shows 1 ace and fires there other card into the muck despite his hand clearly being 100% dead you would still give that player the pot? Have seen tons of stuff like this in live cash games and i think its crystal clear in this situation that T9 is the only hand that has properly declared therefore wins the pot. How there is any arguement against this is beyond me, rules are there for a reason.

              ROFL at anyone saying that its angle shooting holding onto your hand and declaring 1 pair, must have done it over 1k times at this point, nothing unethical about it at all and its v standard IMO, its up to the dealer to make me show it if no one is declaring.
              They will be like WTF how does he always have the top of his range, and they will be saying that when you show up with like nine's - Jimmy Fricke
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              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                Personally I would award the pot to the other guy in this example.

                The OP say that the old guy SHOWS ace high, it's not clear if he showed both of his cards or not but Ace high is clearly the winning and should win in my opinon.
                I think this would be a pretty poor ruling in fairness JP but I see why you're doing it. Isn't it similar to the De Wolfe hand in the EPT last season?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Horrible ruling. You should have been given the pot, although your action could be construed as an angle shoot, but tough sh*t on the other players if they just mucked without seeing your hand. Its not like you misdeclared your hand or something.
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                  Comment


                    #10
                    You should be awarded the pot. How no1 said what's your pair? Is beyond me or even know your joking and see the pair on the board like Jesus common sense is scarce.

                    The dealer should be taken aside and told what is what on how to run a table for showdowns etc.

                    Finally maybe even a word to yourself from td just to show your hand as could be seen as angling esp if you are found doing it again n again etc, plus it slows up the game not showing your hand.
                    Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

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                    Comment


                      #11
                      I'm not sure where all you guys are coming from here. The guy that showed the Ace high should win the pot. The one card he showed is enough to win the hand because it was the best hand shown. Cards speak and it was shown to the table before mucking it so imo that's good enough to take it.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                        I'm not sure where all you guys are coming from here. The guy that showed the Ace high should win the pot. The one card he showed is enough to win the hand because it was the best hand shown
                        What about the whole '2 cards to take a pot' rule... If the guy that had A high tables both his cards before they hit the muck then obviously he wins the pot but otherwise it should be awarded to the 9,10..,,pretty standard I would have presumed!
                        "the impossible is often untried"

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by theduster View Post
                          What about the whole '2 cards to take a pot' rule... If the guy that had A high tables both his cards before they hit the muck then obviously he wins the pot but otherwise it should be awarded to the 9,10..,,pretty standard I would have presumed!
                          Common sense by the TD should override any rule where it allows a person with the worst hand to win a pot when it gets checked on the river. The players are at the table are obviously pretty inexperienced and should get a little protection from the floor to combat any rules or situations they aren't sure of.

                          If James was meant to be 1st, 2nd, or 3rd to show, then he should have shown his hand and not declared it. That's the rule that should be obeyed before the '2 cards to win a pot' rule

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by devilfishwaldo View Post
                            so i say "one pair" (the pair on the board) and suddenly 2 players muck.
                            ...
                            its hardly a game of honesty!
                            Declaring 1 pair is fine if you are just intending to state that you are playing the board. But only because its pretty common. Just like announcing 2 pair when you have a PP and the board paired.

                            But your last comment sounds like you are trying to over rep your hand. Which is angle shooting.
                            Originally posted by luckforsome View Post
                            sure what woulda happened if you mixed your chips up, do they spend 10 minutes reinacting the exact chips???????/...
                            No, they just extract any chips of the same value. Obviously.


                            I can't believe people are saying he gets the pot. I hope none of you are dealers or TDs.
                            If they all mucked, then he gets the pot. But the old guy showed his hand.
                            Cards speak, simple as. Showing his hand is the same as declaring 77 - Ace kicker.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by theduster View Post
                              What about the whole '2 cards to take a pot' rule... If the guy that had A high tables both his cards before they hit the muck then obviously he wins the pot but otherwise it should be awarded to the 9,10..,,pretty standard I would have presumed!
                              Firstly where does it say he only showed one?

                              Secondly, if he did only show one, he still gets the pot. But is also given a warning to show 2 in future. Or if his hand is retrievable, then it can be flipped for the rest of the table.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                I'm not sure where all you guys are coming from here. The guy that showed the Ace high should win the pot. The one card he showed is enough to win the hand because it was the best hand shown. Cards speak and it was shown to the table before mucking it so imo that's good enough to take it.
                                I agree, the best hand was shown and should obviously get the pot imo, don't really see how you could argue otherwise. It's irrelevant what he did after he showed the ace, he could get a warning for not showing both cards (if he only flashed the ace) but he clearly showed the best hand.

                                Edit to say: Just to clarify OP did nothing wrong, just shouldn't have been awarded the pot imo
                                Last edited by mcnugget; 17-11-11, 23:43.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                  Firstly where does it say he only showed one?
                                  It doesn't.... That's why I said IF he tabled both his cards....
                                  "the impossible is often untried"

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Cards were never tabled by the ace high. He showed an ace in his hand very quickly and then sent both cards to the muck face down. I had yet to turn my hand. And to answer and earlier question no I was not the player who was supposed to flip first. This happened very quickly. I declared one pair and within about 5 seconds 3 players had folded.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by devilfishwaldo View Post
                                      Cards were never tabled by the ace high. He showed an ace in his hand very quickly and then sent both cards to the muck face down. I had yet to turn my hand. And to answer and earlier question no I was not the player who was supposed to flip first. This happened very quickly. I declared one pair and within about 5 seconds 3 players had folded.
                                      If is was show clear enough to be an ace. Then he gets the pot. And a warning to show both in future.
                                      Cards speak, and he has the best hand. if players care about the "info" they are losing, then fich his second out of the muck.

                                      If you weren't intending to angle shoot, then you did nothing wrong. But you know you didn't have the best hand.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by devilfishwaldo View Post
                                        Cards were never tabled by the ace high. He showed an ace in his hand very quickly and then sent both cards to the muck face down. I had yet to turn my hand. And to answer and earlier question no I was not the player who was supposed to flip first. This happened very quickly. I declared one pair and within about 5 seconds 3 players had folded.
                                        In that situation if a player shows Ace high I'd tell him he was good

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          There own fault they should be paying attention! That would be like facing a river decision and your looking up in d air and the guy putting you to the test for whatever reason flips up a card by accident but covers it quickly, the rest of the table seen it but you didn't because you were not concentrating on him, my own fault, no1 should tell me the card and I kick myself for not paying attention. There are loads of situations like this, like what did he show? well I would not tell the person cause they should be paying attention, their fault!

                                          Besides they all practically instant mucked.
                                          Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

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                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                            I think this would be a pretty poor ruling in fairness JP but I see why you're doing it. Isn't it similar to the De Wolfe hand in the EPT last season?
                                            This situation is a little bit different to De Wolfe's ruling (and I'm not sure if I'd have ruling the same as TK, in that situation either**)

                                            In De Wolfe's hand he was called on the river by Reinkemeier, it was up to De Wolfe to show first and the Reinkemeier asked to see Roland's hand, maybe trying to force a muck, but the key is he asked to see Roland's hand.(** will come back to this later).

                                            In the OP the dealer declares showdown to which the OP says one pair. While there is nothing wrong with this (may or may not be an angle) and the two players who muck can have no regret. I do believe the info that you gave was misleading to some degree which resulted in the old guy flashing either both of his cards or just his Ace thinking he was beaten.

                                            Ace high is clearly the winning hand in this case, and for the interest and fairness of the game he should win the pot even if the 2nd card wasn't shown.

                                            ** Re De Wolfe's Rulings. Was discussed in depth at the TDA meeting in 2009 and the crowd was divided 50-50. The rule was put to some of the best TD's in the world on the hendon mobs "Ask the TD". http://www.thehendonmob.com/tourname...he_pot_and_why They all think De Wolfe should win with the exception of TK.
                                            The key factors were...
                                            1: Reinkemeier asked to see De Wolfe's hand which then made it live regardless of anything else that happened. So De Wolfe wins.
                                            2: Reinkemeier declares King high (after this point De Wolfe mucks) i.e. Reinkemeier misrepresenting his hand (He only had Q high). Because Reinkemeier has declared a hand he must show.
                                            3: You must show both cards to win a pot. De Wolfe loses because he only showed one card.

                                            To me there's clearly something is fundamentally wrong with the last line of thinking. De Wolfe loses the hand because he only shows one card! Yet Reinkemeier wins the pot at showdown when De Wolfe has shown 1 card but Reinkemeier shows none.

                                            Re show down rule you either have...
                                            1: A hand must be shown to win the pot
                                            or
                                            2: Last man standing rule.

                                            For me in either case because the OP declared "Pair" he must show his cards (this would be different if the others all just open mucked when he called as he wouldn't have to show). But once the old guy tables/flashes the Ace the OP must beat it (If the player with Ace is not facing a bet), as this is now a showdown.
                                            Last edited by JP Poker; 18-11-11, 04:19.
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                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Had Reinkemeier just sat there and De Wolfe announced king high, then mucked, it was Reinkemeiers pot.

                                              But because he asked to see the hand, as he is entitled to, and the dealer stopped him mucking. His hand is still live. Regardless of the edges touching the muck. The best hand should win. And Reinkemeier can't bet King high.

                                              The way Reinkemeier acted after RDW's cards touched the muck was disgracful imo. Slamming his cards down like it was some sort of victory in Jedi mind control.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                As far im concerned if I was in a hand and showed the nuts on showdown and then mucked my cards before a player has even shown his cards, I would expect the pot to go to him. I wud just be kicking myself and insulting myself for mucking.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by devilfishwaldo View Post
                                                  As far im concerned if I was in a hand and showed the nuts on showdown and then mucked my cards before a player has even shown his cards, I would expect the pot to go to him. I wud just be kicking myself and insulting myself for mucking.
                                                  If you showed the nuts, the cards speak for themselves surely.
                                                  Also is there not a sort of 'common sense' taken into account when your cards have been seen and are easily identifiable from the muck?

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Daragh999 View Post
                                                    So if someone shows 1 ace and fires there other card into the muck despite his hand clearly being 100% dead you would still give that player the pot? Have seen tons of stuff like this in live cash games and i think its crystal clear in this situation that T9 is the only hand that has properly declared therefore wins the pot. How there is any arguement against this is beyond me, rules are there for a reason.

                                                    ROFL at anyone saying that its angle shooting holding onto your hand and declaring 1 pair, must have done it over 1k times at this point, nothing unethical about it at all and its v standard IMO, its up to the dealer to make me show it if no one is declaring.
                                                    disagree with "nothing unethical about it" tbh, it may be standard but declraing "1 pair" with ten hi on a paired board when it's kinda obvious every 1 has jack shit is pretty much always angle shoot, granted you can argue it's taking advantage of other players lack of concentration etc. which is a fair point but it's still borderline in terms of ethics regardless of the right ruling...

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Bet the river.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        the honest reason why this ruling suprised me is because a similar sithuation happened to me a couple of years ago. however on this occasion, i was the idiot who mucked his cards after showing. i showed a straight on the river and mucked my cards thinking i was the last player to show. then i looked up the table and realised there was another guy who still hadnt shown.
                                                        a ruling was called and in the words of the bellagio TD " im very sorry sir but your hand is now declared dead as it is in the muck. there is now only one live hand and this man is the only player who can now claim the pot."
                                                        so the guy turned over two pair and won. needless to say i was fuming. but i vowed to make sure i didnt make that mistake again.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Anyone with a Deucescracked membership should check out the new video "what would tommy do". in the 1st episode tommy angelo and joe tall discuss a similiar situation in which a mistake is made by dealer and player(s) and a pot is awarded incorrectly and the choice as to whether you should say something or not.

                                                          basically its whatever you want to do, you cant be wrong. you are not obliged to speak up, but you cant be faulted for doing so.

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