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    QQ Deep 100NL

    SB Playing 23/18 over 280 hands, no3 or 4 bets/squeeze in that time
    Hero playing 30/20 over 74 hands (looser than normal but on a rush)
    BTN ATC

    LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

    SB: $238.12
    BB: $100
    Hero (UTG): $251.34
    CO: $44.16
    BTN: $22.05

    Pre-Flop: Q Q dealt to Hero (UTG)
    Hero raises to $3.50, CO folds, BTN raises to $6, SB raises to $14, BB folds, Hero ?


    BTN is sticking rest in any will re open action if I flat, not sure about 5 betting QQ this deep against SB..

    Thoughts?

    #2
    if you flat - which I think is your only move btw (I dont like 5 betting and folding is too weak). and the BTN shoves the rest in - can the SB only just call?

    seems like the real problems start in this hand depending on the flop but we are in position in a 4bet pot deep so that helps - assuming all played out as its supposed to what kinda flop we dealing with here?

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
      if you flat - which I think is your only move btw (I dont like 5 betting and folding is too weak). and the BTN shoves the rest in - can the SB only just call?

      seems like the real problems start in this hand depending on the flop but we are in position in a 4bet pot deep so that helps - assuming all played out as its supposed to what kinda flop we dealing with here?
      SB has all options if BTN shoves

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Mike View Post
        SB has all options if BTN shoves
        meh thats gay - I thought it would be an under raise? Literally no idea what to do so. Playing deep is hard. Flat and hope shit doesnt get real imo??

        Comment


          #5
          I think I can make a crying fold here and never tell anyone about it.

          We can pretty much discount all his junk 3bet hands as the BTN is getting it in with his entire 3betting range here, and he's unlikely to be dicking about vs a UTG open.

          He's got JJ+ here only imo, and I think we are too deep to get it in, and there's just too many flops that we piss our pants on and fail to get paid by worse hands.

          Fold, curse the times when BTN shoves A6s and SB flips JJ, and just get on with it.

          Comment


            #6
            Don't fold pls.
            Foldaramus et foldarabimus

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
              meh thats gay - I thought it would be an under raise? Literally no idea what to do so. Playing deep is hard. Flat and hope shit doesnt get real imo??
              SB raised by $8, button has $8.05 behind. So no under-raise.

              I can't fold here, his cold 4bet could easily be isolating the button dead money.
              Flat and take position.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Emmet View Post
                I think I can make a crying fold here and never tell anyone about it.

                We can pretty much discount all his junk 3bet hands as the BTN is getting it in with his entire 3betting range here, and he's unlikely to be dicking about vs a UTG open.

                He's got JJ+ here only imo, and I think we are too deep to get it in, and there's just too many flops that we piss our pants on and fail to get paid by worse hands.

                Fold, curse the times when BTN shoves A6s and SB flips JJ, and just get on with it.
                Sb should be waaay wider than that for value. Even with his lack of 3/4betting I still expect him to be wider.

                No way I'm folding anyway. Call (and call if sb re-pops) is prob best at 100nl.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Call the 4bet. The decision comes when BTN has shipped and SB has acted. SB won't be resqueezing light because we're so deep, and your 4bet looks really strong. I'd actually argue that SB should flat KK here because only AA is calling a 6th bet. Obviously it's a mistake to assume that our opponent is playing optimally at these levels, but in certain circumstances it's fine to make an exception.

                  In the meantime there's another 220+BB to be won and we have the 4th best hand in the game. 14BB is not a big price to see a flop in this situation.
                  Last edited by AndyFatBastard; 03-11-11, 09:21.
                  "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Pre-Flop: Q Q dealt to Hero (UTG)
                    Hero raises to $3.50, CO folds, BTN raises to $6, SB raises to $14, BB folds, Hero calls $10.50, BTN raises to $22.05 and is All-In, SB raises to $37.50, Hero

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by AndyFatBastard View Post
                      In the meantime there's another 220+BB to be won and we have the 4th best hand in the game. 14BB is not a big price to see a flop in this situation.
                      we'll never see a flop for 14bbs here...

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Emmet View Post
                        we'll never see a flop for 14bbs here...
                        Obv I meant 22.
                        "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by AndyFatBastard View Post
                          Obv I meant 22.
                          I think we rarely see a flop for 22 either though. I don't think the SB is cold 4betting light here ever (even given the description of the BTN). Whats the worst hand you expect him to show up with here?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            This is actually a really weird spot because it's not a true cold 4bet. In a normal spot you could assume the SB is probably isolating the fish with 88+ and ATs+ here, but he should certainly have in his mind that you've opened under the gun and have a strong perceived range, but 250bb deep in position you'll be calling the 3bet with your entire UTG opening range essentially, so he should realise that he will never ever succeed in isolating the fish.

                            That means his cold 4-bet will usually be for value against your UTG continuing range, but if he realises you're calling with everything you opened with then his range is not as strong as it would be 100bb deep.

                            I think if you 5-bet you essentially make him fold everything but AA and KK but scooping the $50 that's in the middle when his folding range has 30% equity against you isn't the end of the world, particularly given the possibility of you getting bluffed off the best hand on A or K high boards by 99-JJ, though admittedly being in position lowers the chances of this.
                            Calling the 4-bet is OK I guess as he's only going to be re-opening the action with the nuts and you have good odds to call in position for the rest of the hand, though he has the initiative. When he does re-open it, you're getting almost 4/1 and its very hard to see him folding if you hit a Q, so its almost +EV to set mine!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Emmet View Post
                              I think we rarely see a flop for 22 either though. I don't think the SB is cold 4betting light here ever (even given the description of the BTN). Whats the worst hand you expect him to show up with here?
                              I appreciate that he hasn't 3bet or 4bet in 280 hands which is really quite a lot in today's games, but I don't see why he wouldn't want to iso the fish. All we've done is open 5-handed, it's not like our range is small for that. Especially if he's bad and doesn't know what being deep does to his and your optimal ranges. Seeing how he hasn't 3bet in 280 hands we can safely assume he is bad, because who doesn't have a minimum of 5% by then? I'd put his range at TT+, AJo+. I think calling is fine while there's still doubt about his holdings, but only because we are so deep.

                              @Zuutroy: We're not quite set mining. I mean I wouldn't be folding to a single bet on an A or K high flop. But if all the money goes in this will be a ~500BB pot. That's an awful lot of implied odds.

                              @Mike: Supermegaeasy fold now.
                              "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                              Comment


                                #16
                                I mean to the $37.50 bet, not the initial cold 4-bet.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                  This is actually a really weird spot because it's not a true cold 4bet. In a normal spot you could assume the SB is probably isolating the fish with 88+ and ATs+ here, but he should certainly have in his mind that you've opened under the gun and have a strong perceived range, but 250bb deep in position you'll be calling the 3bet with your entire UTG opening range essentially, so he should realise that he will never ever succeed in isolating the fish.
                                  Why is it not a true cold 4 bet?
                                  The last line makes no sense. Obv, he was calling the fish's 3bet with his possibly his entire UTG range. But how do you make the jump that the SB never isolates? The 4 bet changes our continuing range, basically the portion of our open range, where we fols to the 4bet is where he isolates.
                                  how can he never succeed here?

                                  Am i misreading you.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    I meant in the sense that it doesnt go 3bb-10bb-25bb as it would normally between two regs. 250bb deep we should never be folding when we've only 10 more to put in.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      But it's not 10 more, button is Defo shoving, so nearly 20 more plus the SB has his option.
                                      I'm not saying fold I'm saying we dont call just because we're deep and it's only 10 more

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Essentially with the BTNs 3bet, the SBs cold 4bet is fantastically strong, as he is giving himself the option to reopen the betting because he knows that the BTN can't simply call, and that we can also repop.

                                        That much strength from a tight player, vs a UTG open from who he should perceive as a tight player strikes me as being almost insanely strong.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Yeah true, forgot about the fact the btn will be shoving a lot. There is a good chance that when button shoves that SB will flat a lot of the weaker part of his range though, so when he initially 4-bets the fish, he has to realise that there is a good chance that we'll still be in the hand come the flop even against the strongest part of his range, because as I mentioned, his 6 bet (?) size almost prices QQ in to set mine.

                                          All of these considerations probably makes 5b/folding the best way to play the hand in this particular circumstance.

                                          I would question whether he sized his 4bet to deliberately keep the betting open if the BTN shoved too.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            If we CIB-5bet to $22 and BTN raises $0.05 to $22.05 all-in, is SB forced to flat this or is a raise still possible? If villain is forced to flat this is the nut line imo.

                                            If not the only thing we can do is flat the 4bet then flat the 6bet iso this deep. Our line is super strong, looks like QQ+ almost always, and with BTN dynamic we would definitely play AA this way to trap SB so he has to be worried with anything but AA himself, and we have position so his range will be even better defined after flop action given how tight both our ranges appear.
                                            "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Winning! View Post
                                              If we CIB-5bet to $22 and BTN raises $0.05 to $22.05 all-in, is SB forced to flat this or is a raise still possible? If villain is forced to flat this is the nut line imo.

                                              If not the only thing we can do is flat the 4bet then flat the 6bet iso this deep. Our line is super strong, looks like QQ+ almost always, and with BTN dynamic we would definitely play AA this way to trap SB so he has to be worried with anything but AA himself, and we have position so his range will be even better defined after flop action given how tight both our ranges appear.
                                              SB would have been forced to flat..

                                              If I replayed the hand i think that is a good line..

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                My thoughts...

                                                I open, BTN 3bs, SB cold 4b and after checking his pf stats.
                                                I flat but I called the cold 4b ingame thinking that any raise from BTN would be an under raise and that if SB called I would call again..

                                                Once SB 6bs I have to assume a range of KK+ AK unless hes getting creative which stats would indicate otherwise...

                                                BTN description is important in this hand .. he's playing any 2 cards and is dead money in the pot once he enters it..
                                                SPOILER
                                                BTN showed 84o this hand but also showed garbage in different aggro hands

                                                SB could be iso'ing the btn wider initially but i have to give him credit for a big hand when the 6b goes in..

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Mike View Post
                                                  SB would have been forced to flat..

                                                  If I replayed the hand i think that is a good line..
                                                  Dont think he would, if we can make it $22 it cant be an under raise when it gets back to the SB

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Laois Hammer View Post
                                                    Dont think he would, if we can make it $22 it cant be an under raise when it gets back to the SB
                                                    I'm not sure, if I make it $22 and BTN goes allin for 22.05 I thought that would have been an under raise?

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Mike View Post
                                                      I'm not sure, if I make it $22 and BTN goes allin for 22.05 I thought that would have been an under raise?
                                                      Yes but you have raised too, so the under-raise by btn would just mean you couldn't re-raise if it was called and got back to you

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        The buttons 0.5 raise would be an under raise meaning you can't raise if it's back to you to call 0.5
                                                        But your raise to $22 still opens the betting for the SB to raise (6bet?)

                                                        If we did that, the SB has control and can lock us out by flatting , bad option imo
                                                        Last edited by Mellor; 05-11-11, 01:48.

                                                        Comment

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