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    Call or Fold

    Live tourney game, 11 players left, we are 5 handed. Playing 29k, avg 30k, blinds 8/1500 with 100 ante.

    Big Blind is in the toilet , i'm utg, raise 3550 with 88.
    Small blind (aggressive) asks me how much i have and then shoves his 39k.

    Call or fold.

    #2
    Shove pre. Call now. {77+,AJs+,AQo+} Wrong forum
    "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

    Comment


      #3
      Snap call, don't shove pre.
      You are playing 4 handed with a dead BB and you have a big hand, the minraise should induce a shove by weaker hands but you need to be making this minraise knowing that you are snap calling any shove

      Comment


        #4
        + as a general guideline work backways to your position, i.e your the HJ in this hand is a better way to look at it than UTG imo

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          #5
          Min-raising we want smaller pairs to put us in but it wont happen enough live. I shove to avoid players behind flatting/shoving with KJ/QT/JTs/A9/etc.. the kinds hands we would rather not call it off to flip against, and also find it hard to play against post-flop with only 19BBs.
          "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

          Comment


            #6
            I always find live that things can get very loose when a BB is sitting out, especially this shallow if there are aggressive players behind. That's why in this instance I think an open shove is missing a big opportunity. If everyone is seated I'd deffo shove

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Arazi View Post
              I always find live that things can get very loose when a BB is sitting out, especially this shallow if there are aggressive players behind. That's why in this instance I think an open shove is missing a big opportunity. If everyone is seated I'd deffo shove
              Why are you more inclined to shove with a full table as opposed to a dead bb? Obv people realise your opening range is lighter if you jam with a dead bb, therefore you will get called off lighter, i.e. 77, A10o etc. But jamming in 19bbs with no dead money seems like a mistake to me!!

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by tglynn View Post
                Why are you more inclined to shove with a full table as opposed to a dead bb? Obv people realise your opening range is lighter if you jam with a dead bb, therefore you will get called off lighter, i.e. 77, A10o etc. But jamming in 19bbs with no dead money seems like a mistake to me!!
                Hey,
                Basically for the reason that Winning said that he would open shove in this instance, 88 is tough to play post flop this shallow. I'm min-raising in this specific case as the BB sittining out creates a different dynamic to the hand.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                  Hey,
                  Basically for the reason that Winning said that he would open shove in this instance, 88 is tough to play post flop this shallow. I'm min-raising in this specific case as the BB sittining out creates a different dynamic to the hand.
                  You said in your last post an open shove is loving you ev! Whereas you prefer to open shove at a full table!! Now you are saying the opposite?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    OK the reason that Winning said he'd shove in this instance are the reasons that I would shove if all 5 players were seated.
                    However as the BB is away I prefer the minraise as I believe with agressive players behind it can induce shoves from weaker hands than 88 which would probably fold to the open shove (eg small Aces and lower pairs to mention just some).

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I think he said he would shove in this spot and not min raise??!! Also there are alot of hand that will 3-bet jam over you that have you crushed and that you are flipping against! Shoving gives you a decent amount of fold equity (not as much as if the bb was seated) and also allows smaller pairs and hand you dominate A7s to call. The only move I think that makes sense is to shove! Folding is better then min raising IMO!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Well reasoned argument until your last sentence which is retarded IMO.
                        Also shoving gives you zero FE against any hand that has you crushed, or at least it should, and an open shove of 20 BB's 4 handed should be getting called by A10+ anyway so you don't fold out that. I'm also pretty sure I'm folding 55 or small aces to an openshove UTG in this spot if I'm CO or button so I'd definitely question the merits of shoving here, it's completely one dimensionable and doesn't take any of the dynamics that the OP posted into consideration.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by tglynn View Post
                          I think he said he would shove in this spot and not min raise??!! Also there are alot of hand that will 3-bet jam over you that have you crushed and that you are flipping against! Shoving gives you a decent amount of fold equity (not as much as if the bb was seated) and also allows smaller pairs and hand you dominate A7s to call. The only move I think that makes sense is to shove! Folding is better then min raising IMO!
                          We're opening 88 100% of the time from CO, folding is nut worst line. Where Arazi and I disagree is simply about how wide people will shove over a min and thus, whether getting it in as a decent favourite an extra x% of the time will be worth the risk of taking a flip or playing postflop vs a range of hands which would otherwise have folded to a shove. Line is irrelevant vs the hands that have us crushed, it goes in regardless.
                          "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                            Well reasoned argument until your last sentence which is retarded IMO.
                            Also shoving gives you zero FE against any hand that has you crushed, or at least it should, and an open shove of 20 BB's 4 handed should be getting called by A10+ anyway so you don't fold out that. I'm also pretty sure I'm folding 55 or small aces to an openshove UTG in this spot if I'm CO or button so I'd definitely question the merits of shoving here, it's completely one dimensionable and doesn't take any of the dynamics that the OP posted into consideration.
                            Ya of course, and I never said it gives you fold equity over a hand that has you crushed!! I said it gives you fold equity in general! And I would not be surprised by people calling off with 55-77 in this spot at all considering the dead money in the pot. Also the 'i prefer a fold to a min raise' just shows how much I hate a min raise in this spot, I don't think i'd ever fold unless a guy to my left starts fist pumping and wets himself!!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Winning! View Post
                              We're opening 88 100% of the time from CO, folding is nut worst line. Where Arazi and I disagree is simply about how wide people will shove over a min and thus, whether getting it in as a decent favourite an extra x% of the time will be worth the risk of taking a flip or playing postflop vs a range of hands which would otherwise have folded to a shove. Line is irrelevant vs the hands that have us crushed, it goes in regardless.
                              As stated I won't fold! I might be bad but comon... So you just open shove? Or min raise and call a jam anyway?

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Thanks for the debate lads . 2 great views on why either shove or min is correct.

                                Fold pre lol

                                I did snap and he had aq and hit his ace. Perfectly happy at the time the way it played. Obv from replies fold after raise is terrible (only crossed my mind on the way home) so will ensure that never happens in such a situation.

                                A shove gets me 10% extra if he folds pre (think particular villian may call here in that situation anyway)

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by EnzoScifo View Post
                                  Thanks for the debate lads . 2 great views on why either shove or min is correct.

                                  Fold pre lol

                                  I did snap and he had aq and hit his ace. Perfectly happy at the time the way it played. Obv from replies fold after raise is terrible (only crossed my mind on the way home) so will ensure that never happens in such a situation.

                                  A shove gets me 10% extra if he folds pre (think particular villian may call here in that situation anyway)
                                  Prob always gonna call it off against most in there anyway Al. Unlucky that you ran into nearly the top of their range!

                                  Surprised though that they didnt have 92o and spike a 9.

                                  BTW did you have the K in that hand? The more I thought about it I should have called. Put you on too narrow a range and it was a great spot to rep it.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by cadey110 View Post

                                    BTW did you have the K in that hand? The more I thought about it I should have called. Put you on too narrow a range and it was a great spot to rep it.
                                    Cant remember the hand, remind me again?

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by EnzoScifo View Post
                                      Cant remember the hand, remind me again?
                                      It was early on. U raised in ep to 175. Hammer called and I repopped it to 500 from the button. U flatted and hammer folded. Flop comes A Q J with 2 spades. U check call a bet of 800 from me. Turn is a 4 I think. U check call a bet of 1700 from me. River is a 10 putting 4 to a straight there. U shoved for about 7k I think. Tank folded QQ for a flopped middle set.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by cadey110 View Post
                                        It was early on. U raised in ep to 175. Hammer called and I repopped it to 500 from the button. U flatted and hammer folded. Flop comes A Q J with 2 spades. U check call a bet of 800 from me. Turn is a 4 I think. U check call a bet of 1700 from me. River is a 10 putting 4 to a straight there. U shoved for about 7k I think. Tank folded QQ for a flopped middle set.
                                        Had ak of spades, felt i was behind, had put you on aj or aq with your line. Thought you would only call if you felt i missed the flush so just shoved it.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by EnzoScifo View Post
                                          Had ak of spades, felt i was behind, had put you on aj or aq with your line. Thought you would only call if you felt i missed the flush so just shoved it.
                                          That was a pretty good flop for both of us then!!!! Ya seemed a bit suspect to value shove but at the same time I'm probably always checking behind on that river. Might have puke called a smaller bet though!!

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