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tough spot after flopping trips 3-way?

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    tough spot after flopping trips 3-way?

    £50 live tourney

    130 runners, ~80 left

    blinds: 200/400 (no ante)

    starting stack = 10k ; average ~17k

    villain (UTG) (40k): raises to 900

    button (20k): calls

    Hero (bb): A4 off - calls

    flop: Q44

    flop action went like this:

    Hero (BB): check
    Villain(UTG): bets 1600
    Button:raise to 4500
    Hero: raises to 10k
    Villain: Shove for 40k
    Button: calls all-in
    Hero:??? all in to call (20k back)

    info: have played with 'villain' few times and seems competent, opens a fair bit but not a maniac by any means - won two big pots early on with QQ both times

    Button seems OK too but straight forward - he Played a hand earlier in which he raised a c-bet hu with top pair and called a shove - his top pair held versus nut flush draw

    My image to villain(s) is almost certainly tight

    To be honest I wasn't too concerned about the button, the hand info above and others I've played with him meant I know he can over value a q here and he def would go with a flush draw. Issue was the villain - as to my mind he never (ever) has a bluff - so how wide are his non-bluff hands here?

    Thanks

    #2
    Absent very specific information I think you have to call here. You have nut kicker as well. Lots of fours, queens, over pairs and flush draws.

    Comment


      #3
      I'd rather fold pre flop but after flopping this big I don't think folding can be an option with ~30% already in the middle. Call and hope to see AA or KK.

      Comment


        #4
        I'm sorry I opened this thread.

        You have the third nuts, of the two hands that beat you, one is very unlikely preflop (Q4) and the other is both combinatoraly unlikely and your opponent would need to be brain dead to play it like this (QQ)

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
          You have the third nuts, of the two hands that beat you, one is very unlikely preflop (Q4) and the other is both combinatoraly unlikely and your opponent would need to be brain dead to play it like this (QQ)
          This.
          I don't what else there is to consider.


          Also, why call preflop with A4 OOP, if you don't get it in on a x44 flop

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
            combinatoraly unlikely
            "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
              close enough

              combinatoraly
              combinatorially

              Comment


                #8
                So, did you start this thread because he turned over QQ? Give us the result ya auld tease
                Go big or go homeless.

                Comment


                  #9
                  He has to have QQ, nothing else makes sense (given the thread).

                  The hand has two interesting decision points, preflop and on the flop. Pre is marginal but I would definitely call. I hate the OPS flop play as he may as well turn his 4 face up, although that said he does have the nut kicker so he is at the top of his range (with his range being 4x).

                  The action on the flop goes, check - bet, raise and reraise from hero, its going to be hard to get action from a queen with a line like that. Its fine against bad players but any thinking player is going to realise you are very likely to have a four, you are the BB and only called a small raise getting great odds multiway.

                  Leading the flop is definitely an option.

                  If you had a weak 4 in your hand your line would be terrible, but the decision at the end would be interesting, it really looks like you have a 4; but you are getting great pot odds, can easily end if chopping it against 4x and a flush draw is going to be a large part of your opponents range. I think its a call.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    So, I was actually the UTG villain rather than hero - I posted from hero's perspective as made it simpler in terms of explaining the decesion points. I mainly posted as I would not be passing A4 in hero's spot - to my mind a weak 4 would be super tough but with A4 I'm calling all day long. This was the jist of discussion I had with the 'hero' after the hand. His point was I have so few 4x hands in my UTG opening range that QQ seemed more likely.

                    For the record the hands were:

                    UTG 45
                    button: KQ
                    BB: A4

                    (45 held fwiw)

                    I think his perception with regard me having such a tight range overlooked the fact I had won 2-3 nice sized pots in the recent past to now have a very decent stack, after being uner starting stack since basically the first hand prior to this, and hence would now be opening a lot wider than previously including suited connectors which I think is something to take from the hand.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Did the A4 fold?
                      Also, KQ, wtf? lol

                      Comment


                        #12
                        This is one of the worst played hands I've ever come across. I don't mind the play with 45, but the KQ is bad, and the A5 is staggeringly awful. This is worse than folding AA preflop





                        And in a situation where you are literally never shown a worse hand. You should congratulate this guy as I doubt anyone has ever played a hand so badly where he was cognisant of all the details and not trying to lose.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Kie Diddy View Post
                          His point was I have so few 4x hands in my UTG opening range that QQ seemed more likely.
                          Would anyone ever shove QQ here? Most people wouldn't even initially bet. You don't even need to think about preflop ranges.

                          On a side note, I was wondering if someone is opening 45s utg then are they opening Q5s, since Q5s is a marginally better hand. Turns out that the tighter the range you are called with the better 45s does. Against top 30% of hands Q5s is slightly better than 45s, against top 20% 45s does better, although you are talking about fractions of a % in the difference.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                            Did the A4 fold?
                            Also, KQ, wtf? lol
                            yep, A4 folded on teh flop to my jam.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                              This is one of the worst played hands I've ever come across. I don't mind the play with 45, but the KQ is bad, and the A5 is staggeringly awful
                              Phew, least I came out of the cross examination OK

                              I genuinely posted becasue I couldn't believe he folded, once he was tanking and talking to himslef etc I was thinking he must have a weak 4 but to see the A4 was amazing to me. Hence, I wanted to see if my thoughts on the hand were someway correct or if I was looking at the situation too simply.

                              FWIW, think if I did have QQ I might still shove - on the assumption that at that point a 4 isn't folding (or a flush draw at this standard quite often) but propabaly not, and would be less likely to c-bet flop with QQ too.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                the button with kq should have folded when his rr got called by an all in, a4 was mad to fold, why play a4 if youd fold a flop like that, what more you want,, id call with a4 and gamble, i dont like calling raises with ace low kicker as you cud be out kicked but a flop like that is too hard to throw away but you have to know how that opp has been playing, if he seems tight then he cud have either aq, kk or qq minmum, with a potsize like that id def be calling

                                Comment

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