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Old 04-12-17, 00:33   #1
checkshove18
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Thoughts: AQ in the shortstack

Would love to get your thoughts on how this hand went down.

Blinds 2k 4k, average stack 195k

Hero raises to 14k from middle position with AcQc.

One caller, big stack at over 400k flats.

Flop comes down Js6c2d. Both players check. Turn is a blank (canít remember exactly, maybe a 3)

Villain is first to act and bets out 25k, making the pot over 55k. Hero reads this as a standard squeeze of himself in the small stack, thinks AQ might be good and reraises all-in for 57k.

Villain calls and turns over J4 Off.

My own thoughts; Why was he in the hand? The preflop raise at 3.5x should have gotten rid of that kind of muck. I probably should have jammed pre-flop, stole the blinds and antes and waited for a better spot. With 14k in the pot and only 57 left behind I could only fold or push.

My read that he didnít have much was accurate even though he still had more than I thought. I saw it as we both missed and him with the big stack was just bullying. I reckon there are a lot of situations where I make that move and he either folds or calls with a worse holding.
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Old 04-12-17, 01:27   #2
brady23
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Shoving is definitely profitable but probably not optimal imo in position. I think your sizing is a tad big I probably prefer smaller or jam.

Post flop you get the nut flop to cbet on that you don't catch a piece of. This board is very dry. It's hard for an opponent to have hit enough to continue so it's a definite cbet.

Turn as played is pretty bad imo. It's very polarizing and at this stack depth although it's conceivable you play a nutted hand this way I'd still feel there far more bluffs in your range.

He only needs around 18% equity vs your range to make it a break even call on the river. Seems like a snap to me if he assumes you are any way capable of bluffing here.

Last edited by brady23; 04-12-17 at 01:37. Reason: Sorry I see now he was sb not bb, last paragraph is irrelevant
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Old 04-12-17, 01:54   #3
Hectorjelly
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Shove pre is good with under 20 big, or min raise, you chose the worst option. Fold to the turn bet. Your read was wrong, he had top pair. Post flop your play is very bad, it makes no sense. If you want to bluff then cbet the flop and follow through on the turn, although this is a pretty bad hand to choose, and if you bet all your AQ and aK you are way over bluffing.
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Old 04-12-17, 02:00   #4
Mellor
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Hero's stack size is 71k?


Quote:
Originally Posted by checkshove18 View Post
My own thoughts; Why was he in the hand? The preflop raise at 3.5x should have gotten rid of that kind of muck.
Assuming he was in the BB, it was 2.5 more to call with 5bb in there. So he's getting 2/1. Probably felt he had odds to call. I'd had passed personally.

Quote:
I probably should have jammed pre-flop, stole the blinds and antes and waited for a better spot. With 14k in the pot and only 57 left behind I could only fold or push.
Jamming is better than betting pre and checking flop and getting it in on a blank turn. That's almost the worst way to play it imo.

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My read that he didn’t have much was accurate even though he still had more than I thought. I saw it as we both missed and him with the big stack was just bullying. I reckon there are a lot of situations where I make that move and he either folds or calls with a worse holding.
Your read wasn't that accurate. Top pair no kicker on the flop is pretty strong, esp once you fail to c-bet. You either have nothing, or a very strong hand once you you check/shove.
I don't think any worse hands call your bet tbh.
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Last edited by Mellor; 04-12-17 at 02:03.
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Old 04-12-17, 09:46   #5
checkshove18
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He wasnít in a blind, he called 14k (blinds 2k4k) with J4 preflop.

I probably should have check jammed the flop but heíd still have had top pair on a very dry flop at 2:1 so I think it would have ended the same way.
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Old 04-12-17, 09:57   #6
checkshove18
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On that board I actually thought there was a reasonable chance AQ high was good, and that he was in there with a worse Ace or even KQ K10 suited.

Obviously my read was wrong in the end, but I think in a lot of hands AQ high is good there.

Annoyed with how I played it, youíre right I definitely made the wrong move on the turn. Equally annoyed that he was in the hand with J4, Iíd definitely raised enough to get rid of that shit.
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Old 04-12-17, 10:46   #7
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how had he being playing previously, how had you?
lets go all the way down to shit player level.
calls with anything pays off if hits
was he that bad previously?
lets go slightly less shit
calls with anything and doesn't fold if he bets out
had he done that?
Was a a decent loose player?
Is your raising range polarized?
Did you cbet often?
Why were you a short stack?

What everyone has said above is correct, you played this the worst way you could. This is good though, its a learning experience.
Again depending on your history, 3.5x sends a lot of signals
He's calling to hit and once he does hes not going anywhere
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Old 04-12-17, 11:31   #8
Mellor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by checkshove18 View Post
He wasn’t in a blind, he called 14k (blinds 2k4k) with J4 preflop.
You said he was first to act on the turn. So he shouldn't be flatting 14k pre.
Either he was in the blinds or limped ahead of you. Or you were OOP and check turn.
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Last edited by Mellor; 04-12-17 at 11:34.
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Old 04-12-17, 11:31   #9
dobby
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So if you're in mid position and he's first to act but not in blinds, he limp called with J4. If he's limping that in ep he's not going anywhere when he hits.

You should have just shoved after the limp.
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Old 04-12-17, 12:30   #10
checkshove18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadParrot View Post
how had he being playing previously, how had you?
lets go all the way down to shit player level.
calls with anything pays off if hits
was he that bad previously?
lets go slightly less shit
calls with anything and doesn't fold if he bets out
had he done that?
Was a a decent loose player?
Is your raising range polarized?
Did you cbet often?
Why were you a short stack?

What everyone has said above is correct, you played this the worst way you could. This is good though, its a learning experience.
Again depending on your history, 3.5x sends a lot of signals
He's calling to hit and once he does hes not going anywhere
Iíd just been moved to a new table so he didnít know anything about me and I didnít know anything about him.

Iím obviously misremembering his position. He was definitely first to act but he definitely wasnít in the big blind. He might have been sb for 2k.
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Old 04-12-17, 12:35   #11
checkshove18
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My thinking was that going all in gave me three chances at winning the hand

1. That heíd completely missed and might lay it down
2. That AQ was ahead
3. That if I was wrong on the above I had six outs

Ugh. I very very rarely (almost never) put all my chips in the middle on a bluff. And this is why!
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Old 04-12-17, 12:41   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by checkshove18 View Post
Iíd just been moved to a new table so he didnít know anything about me and I didnít know anything about him.

Iím obviously misremembering his position. He was definitely first to act but he definitely wasnít in the big blind. He might have been sb for 2k.
Just like the hand, you've made shit of this hand history too
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Old 04-12-17, 13:15   #13
checkshove18
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Originally Posted by dobby View Post
Just like the hand, you've made shit of this hand history too
Yup. Canít argue that.
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Old 04-12-17, 14:31   #14
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I was on your table and can confirm he flatted the sb with J4o vs your 3.5x open playing 18bbs. The flat itself is as bad as it gets but anyway.

Open shoving is preferable to 2x and definitely preferable to 3.5x. The problem you put yourself in here by opening to 3.5x is exemplified on this flop. Cbetting the flop and you've now 1/2 you stack in and are more or less committed to calling a shove with 2 overs and potential backdoors.

Shoving makes life a lot easier on, what was, a very peel happy table. Otherwise opening to 2x and cbetting 30% pot will cost you 4bbs in total and allow you to b/f vs ch/shoves. On such a dry flop a smaller cbet should work a huge proportion of the time on a flop that doesn't favour a sb's flatting range. It also allows you to realise your equity if he flats as the standard line here will be ch/ch on most turns you don't improve on.
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Old 04-12-17, 15:36   #15
checkshove18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTL View Post
I was on your table and can confirm he flatted the sb with J4o vs your 3.5x open playing 18bbs. The flat itself is as bad as it gets but anyway.

Open shoving is preferable to 2x and definitely preferable to 3.5x. The problem you put yourself in here by opening to 3.5x is exemplified on this flop. Cbetting the flop and you've now 1/2 you stack in and are more or less committed to calling a shove with 2 overs and potential backdoors.

Shoving makes life a lot easier on, what was, a very peel happy table. Otherwise opening to 2x and cbetting 30% pot will cost you 4bbs in total and allow you to b/f vs ch/shoves. On such a dry flop a smaller cbet should work a huge proportion of the time on a flop that doesn't favour a sb's flatting range. It also allows you to realise your equity if he flats as the standard line here will be ch/ch on most turns you don't improve on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTL View Post
I was on your table and can confirm he flatted the sb with J4o vs your 3.5x open playing 18bbs. The flat itself is as bad as it gets but anyway.
Yeah I definitely should have shoved pre.

Made it 3.5x in the hopes that it might just fold around (the blinds and antes had just hit me for over 10% of my stack so Iíd have been happy enough with that)

Basically panicked on the turn. Having put 14k in I felt committed.

Worst hand I played of the entire tournament- looking around at big stacks and pros all around I got intimidated and played it stupidly.

Apologies for messing up the hand history guys, weíd just sat down and I was in seat 3 so didnít have a great view of what was happening (and it all happened quickly!)
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