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**Emmet** · 06-12-10, 21:59

Sick spot, if you think about why did you bet flop for a minute it should be helpful. Did you bet flop hoping to get a call from worse? What kind of hands does he c/c with here? Did you bet flop to fold better? (no). Did you bet flop to get him to fold his equity share and move on to next hand? Yes, I think...

There are very few hands you can have that can b/c confidently on the verge of the bubble, and mp should know this. This is a good spot for him to bluff / semi bluff IMO. And I'm fairly certain we have the best hand here almost all of the time (currently). Villain can be doing this with bare overcards and with non nut flush draws an awful lot of the time. Things like qsts and even AsXx.

I think I call here and be happy about it. He shouldn't ever be doing this with QQ+ or sets. It's squeaky bum time and pray for the fade when you see his Js5s imo

**Sledgejammer** · 06-12-10, 22:00

I'm not folding, that's for sure.

**Angry-Ball** · 06-12-10, 22:04

think i call this tbh

**Bubbleking** · 06-12-10, 22:08

I'd fold and I absolutely love the way the villain played the hand. Really is a super play to get your stack

**TommyGunne** · 06-12-10, 22:10

I'm all in preflop and instasnapper it off now.

**TommyGunne** · 06-12-10, 22:14

Also the AJ hand is probably interesting too. What positions were ye in and stacks?

**Closed_Account** · 06-12-10, 22:17

Dont think its sick at all. Callthebejesusoutofher.

**Caf** · 06-12-10, 22:39

Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post

Also the AJ hand is probably interesting too. What positions were ye in and stacks?

Literally it was the previous, so I was butt, villain was mp and stacks were around 5555+antes to the better/worse as the case may be.

I felt if I shipped there I could win the pot a lot but just couldn't find a push tbh, and am obv never getting called by worse. Thoughts on that one?

**TommyGunne** · 06-12-10, 22:47

Yeah I ship that one too for 27bigs if he is that aggro. Flop is pretty interesting. I don't mind peeling one off with A high for value, but that really depends on his turn/river tendencies and how loose he is pre. It can turn pretty horrible pretty fast, so I don't hate the fold. Don't play enough tournies, but I think the hand is defo too strong to fold IP to an aggro guys cbet on this board.

**cardshark202** · 06-12-10, 23:47

I expect to see a big ace pretty often here. Snippetysnapcall

**gorrrr72** · 07-12-10, 00:10

If he's any good he pretty much knows that you have 88-JJ, probably hoping for a fold with your JJ and a call from your 88 if he has FD and overs.

Either way it's a call for you now because of the potsize. I'd be happy enough with the call whatever he has tbh. It's a spot where you just have to get it in or you'll get tied up making hero folds too much and never give yourself the chance to win.

**Emmet** · 07-12-10, 00:19

Originally posted by Emmet View Post

Sick spot, if you think about why did you bet flop for a minute it should be helpful. Did you bet flop hoping to get a call from worse? What kind of hands does he c/c with here? Did you bet flop to fold better? (no). Did you bet flop to get him to fold his equity share and move on to next hand? Yes, I think...

There are very few hands you can have that can b/c confidently on the verge of the bubble, and mp should know this. This is a good spot for him to bluff / semi bluff IMO. And I'm fairly certain we have the best hand here almost all of the time (currently). Villain can be doing this with bare overcards and with non nut flush draws an awful lot of the time. Things like qsts and even AsXx.

I think I call here and be happy about it. He shouldn't ever be doing this with QQ+ or sets. It's squeaky bum time and pray for the fade when you see his Js5s imo

just home from library, wrote this on my phone, so wasn't arsed going back to edit out the "sick spot" at the start. The more I typed the more I saw that it wasn't. First line and last sentence contradict each other badly!

**HappyasLarry** · 07-12-10, 02:07

When you flat a pf raise with JJ in position with 25bb's, have you not pretty much decided that you're basically getting it in on any flop with no A,K or Q...??
If not, please explain your reason behind just calling pf...??

**Caf** · 07-12-10, 03:58

Originally posted by Emmet View Post

just home from library, wrote this on my phone, so wasn't arsed going back to edit out the "sick spot" at the start. The more I typed the more I saw that it wasn't. First line and last sentence contradict each other badly!

You went through the same mind fook I did

.

Originally posted by HappyasLarry View Post

When you flat a pf raise with JJ in position with 25bb's, have you not pretty much decided that you're basically getting it in on any flop with no A,K or Q...??
If not, please explain your reason behind just calling pf...??

I called to get value out of the hand, I crush his pf range and figured he doesn't always call my 3bet or 3bai(I don't know if I crush his range for a insta c/r on flop, hence posting the hand and looking for feedback/advice so this will become more standard for me).

I prob should have 3b, and nearly always willl in future, but maybe I don't 3bet enough, prob because I fail to see the need since I would tend to play lower stakes where 3 betting isn't as much of a need imo.

I did intend to go broke in this hand but I also expected him to Cbet and couldn't work out why he didn't, so I bet, thinking checking here would be woeful, and he couldn't have shipped any faster. I had not intended on folding at all after betting but I wasn't snapping here because the game is out of my br and I bought in direct(never going to snap a hand when I'm in higher stakes anyway but always playing ftw). So I thought about it and called.

**Mellor** · 07-12-10, 05:01

What did he have?

FYI, I call and am pretty happy about it

**kincsem** · 07-12-10, 05:15

Fold and keep playing.

**bustamoves** · 07-12-10, 08:26

i don't think it is a snap call. i think its closer than the other seems to think. i expect him to have you crushed here quite a bit but i think he will also have draws here that you will be favourite over enough to make it a call now.

the reason i don't think it's a snap call is i'd imagine a player like this flop c/r-ing range would be more weighted with hands that have you beat than hands that have decent equity (e.g. 66 and overs + fd, pairs+ fd, pairs + sd, pairs + sd) since i'd expect him to just c-bet (possibly intendening to barrell) with those given he is aggro and may perceive you as a little weak tight since you've folded previously (sample size=1 lol). on the other hand your delay in c/betting may have gave him the necessary balls to summin up a complete bluff with weak draws or bare overs (combined with the fact that you have underrepped you hand pre) but i would read less into that obv

but i could have this complete the wrong way around (i seem to have a knack of that) and that his c/r-ing range is more weighted with non-made hands in which case its a supersnap call obv). interested to hear others thoughts on this

so i think its a call since since you will have him beat a decent amount but i do expect him to show up with the oul cooler ballers QQ(my best guess!), JJ for chop, KK, AA, sets and straights a fair bit

**ianmc38** · 07-12-10, 08:29

I'd be auto 3betting this pre and obviously calling instantly now.

**Bubbleking** · 07-12-10, 11:22

If villain thinks we have 88-JJ or over cards surely a c/s is a sicko play with QQ+ (well maybe just KK/AA)

he gets our stack when we have an under pair and gets an extra bet out of us if we bet with overs. It prob still goes down as a cooler but I like his line

I dunno what he had by the way

**Emmet** · 07-12-10, 11:25

Even if he plays QQ+ like this, they make up a small part of the range that does it.

That being said, playing QQ+ like this is a bit off. Why would they check a low suited flop? We have plenty of FDs in our range. What if we check behind? With QQ+ they want to get it in on their terms, with a FD they want you to fold a lot, and still have equity when called..

**Caf** · 07-12-10, 16:45

Originally posted by Mellor View Post

What did he have?

SPOILER

Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post

If villain thinks we have 88-JJ or over cards surely a c/s is a sicko play with QQ+ (well maybe just KK/AA)

he gets our stack when we have an under pair and gets an extra bet out of us if we bet with overs. It prob still goes down as a cooler but I like his line

I dunno what he had by the way

I love the way he played the hand tbh. If I'm villain I'm showing up here with better than JJ a lot(QQ+, sets, straights) more times than a flush draw or lower pairs which I would be inclined to bet/call on flop. In saying that I'll be 3betting here preflop in future.

Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post

Also the AJ hand is probably interesting too. What positions were ye in and stacks?

Should I be 3betting here preflop, came into my head at the time, or is it better to see a flop and re-evaluate? I don't like how I played it all tbh.

Must be nearly time to get one of those holdem manager things...

**Bubbleking** · 07-12-10, 18:02

obviously

**cunningfoc** · 08-12-10, 16:12

I'd beat him into the pot.

However I'm raising him preflop.

**Carl_Morrissey** · 08-12-10, 16:26

It's ugly as it gets to be honest, I actually like your flat call pf. The board texture problem is when you do decide to call off your either worse than a flip v akss or aqss, crushed by qq-aa or in great shape v 88-10s but I dont think these hands are really in his c/r shove range.

It feels like I'm going against the grain here but the more I think about it the more I'd be leaning toward a fold. Really interesting hand though.

**Starvin Marvin** · 08-12-10, 16:52

3bet/call pre.

**blaaaaaaah** · 09-12-10, 04:18

Didn't read post's so sorry if this conflicts, the way you set out to play this hand I can see uncertainty everywher and if you are indeed like this just take the standard root and 3bet pre n call it off to a shove, the villain is just too loose.

As the hand is played, your flat pre and then huge over bet on the flop I do not like it tbh, if flatting and trapping then bet something above 6k on the flop it will do fine and will allow more room for working out has the villain got a real hand.

As played with his shove to your pot bet, he is never messing around here ur probably beat or maybe he has 1010 but chances are you are beat, reason I say this is because the lag villain will not want to risk off loading a load of chips on the chance that he is right with 88 here, he knows much easier game if he folds moves on to raising and pressuring other players into making those decisions for their stack. So I fold.

**Caf** · 09-12-10, 04:30

Originally posted by cunningfoc View Post

I'd beat him into the pot.

What does this mean?

@Blaaaaaah, I think you misread the bet/pot size. I bet 10.4k into 17.5k. Unless I'm reading your post wrong?

**blaaaaaaah** · 09-12-10, 14:25

Sorry Caf I didn't see the pot total my bad.

**Caf** · 09-12-10, 15:02

Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post

Sorry Caf I didn't see the pot total my bad.

All good, input appreciated. By all means go again, cheers.

**TommyGunne** · 09-12-10, 15:41

3b shoving is far better than 3b calling with these stacks imo. Far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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