Three Decision Points

[Wombatman]

Small ball Irish Freeze Out in local casino. Standard mixed to poor.
3 Tables
Average Stack 8k
Level Three 75 / 150 full ring
20 min clock

Tighter Player who will usually raise top hands limps from CO. 6.5k

Button limping 50% of hands calls. Very wide range. Will almost 100% call a standard raise now that he is in the pot. 12k

Decent enough player who would probably raise here with a big hand calls from SB. 9k

Hero in big blind looks at QcJh and ..... checks option??? 9k

Flop
Js4s4c

SB checks
Hero checks???
CO checks
Button makes it 300
SB calls

Hero?

[Bubbleking]

based on your description of players involved I think a fold is ok

[NuckChorris]

Flat call for me. Keeps in the hands that you beat and any drawing hand is calling a raise in position anyway without you knowing if it's a drawing hand or one that beats you.

[NuckChorris]

based on your description of players involved I think a fold is ok

Never folding.

[mcnugget]

Agree with checking pre, not a pretty hand to be playing oop in a multi way bloated pot.

Yeah check call the flop is the right way to go for me. Def not folding top pair to one bet against these opponents. There are a lot of nasty turn cards for you but you can check and evaluate any action. I would play the whole hand in a passive c/calling way so long as the action is not too hot.

[Bubbleking]

you have 11% equity against any 4 which is a gigantic part of at least one villains range - if you call here I assume you are calling on 2 blanks when faced with 900 on the turn and 2k on the river?

[FeetMagic]

Simple call tbh.

[FeetMagic]

you have 11% equity against any 4 which is a gigantic part of at least one villains range - if you call here I assume you are calling on 2 blanks when faced with 900 on the turn and 2k on the river?

Why?

[Bubbleking]

Why?

serial limper suggests to me he is a check calling cretin leads in a multi way pot so I doubt he has a FD or a worse Jack

Decent player flats oop - does he really do this with a worse Jack? at best he has a FD imo with 4 players to act behind him

you have TP meh kicker - I dont take to long to fold tbh

[FeetMagic]

serial limper suggests to me he is a check calling cretin leads in a multi way pot so I doubt he has a FD or a worse Jack

Decent player flats oop - does he really do this with a worse Jack? at best he has a FD imo with 4 players to act behind him

you have TP meh kicker - I dont take to long to fold tbh

Meh standard mixed to poor. Button could be betting anything there, his range is wide open. Wouldn't give SB credit for a better hand based on just calling that bet either. I think it's an easy call & re-evaluate and I'd be confident too.

[NuckChorris]

Decent player flats oop - does he really do this with a worse Jack? at best he has a FD imo with 4 players to act behind him

you have TP meh kicker - I dont take to long to fold tbh

he's betting the button after 3 pre-flop limpers have checked it to him. If he is decent he's 23o upwards here. as for calling 900 and 2k on river he's bet half pot so no reason to expect different on later streets -> turn 600, river 1200.

[Bubbleking]

Meh standard mixed to poor. Button could be betting anything there, his range is wide open. Wouldn't give SB credit for a better hand based on just calling that bet either. I think it's an easy call & re-evaluate and I'd be confident too.

I really hate the term "call and re-evaluate" not just you by the way I see it being used the whole time in most strat situations. we need to be thinking of future streets now before we put any more chips in the pot.

we hate pretty much the whole deck on the turn and river. If we call now is it our plan to try and show down as cheaply as possible? If the BTN bombs again on the turn are we calling that? if it gets checked around and the SB bombs the river are we calling that?

[FeetMagic]

I'd be evaluating what to do mainly on the actions of the players. I don't hate too many cards on the turn to be honest. It's a pretty dry board. Regardless of the turn if there's action from both I'll fold (obv not if 4/J). If they don't show strength I'd still be confident I'm ahead.

[Bubbleking]

I'd be evaluating what to do mainly on the actions of the players. I don't hate too many cards on the turn to be honest. It's a pretty dry board. Regardless of the turn if there's action from both I'll fold (obv not if 4/J). If they don't show strength I'd still be confident I'm ahead.

yeah thats a fair point we disagree on whether calling/folding is a mistake but either way I dont think its huge

Turn will be interesting - Wombatman?

[mcnugget]

I really hate the term "call and re-evaluate" not just you by the way I see it being used the whole time in most strat situations. we need to be thinking of future streets now before we put any more chips in the pot.

we hate pretty much the whole deck on the turn and river. If we call now is it our plan to try and show down as cheaply as possible? If the BTN bombs again on the turn are we calling that? if it gets checked around and the SB bombs the river are we calling that?

It's fine having a broad plan for future streets but poker is a game of information so it's necessary to "re-evaluate" once we obtain further information imo eg whether the button checks behind turn, bets 1/3 pot or bombs full pot is not something we know now and will have a major influence on our turn decision.

It's an awkward spot, no-one is in love with top pair medium kicker but imo we are ahead an awful lot here and to fold on the flop loses a lot of value for us. Yes you could definitely fold now and avoid a potentially very awkward decision but just because it's the easiest thing to do doesn't make it the best.

[NuckChorris]

Turn will be interesting - Wombatman?

yup, think we're ready for 2nd decision point.

[Keane]

Button's range on the flop is any two, no?

SB decent-ish player is surely going to raise an overpair pre, so SCs and underpairs must be a fair part of his range here.

No love for taking control of the pot by check-raising here? We probably fold the CO and BTN who probably have air but I can definitely see us getting value from the SBs range...

[Wombatman]

yup, think we\'re ready for 2nd decision point.

You have had your three points alrady sham and thats all ye be getting as the hand played itself after point 3.

[NuckChorris]

You have had your three points alrady sham and thats all ye be getting as the hand played itself after point 3.

Have ye now. Had to go back and look for the 3 places you had question marks. First two are definite checks anyway. 100%.

[Keane]

Button's range on the flop is any two, no?

SB decent-ish player is surely going to raise an overpair pre, so SCs and underpairs must be a fair part of his range here.

No love for taking control of the pot by check-raising here? We probably fold the CO and BTN who probably have air but I can definitely see us getting value from the SBs range...

Here respond to this will you, I'm terribad but trying to improve!

[NuckChorris]

Button's range on the flop is any two, no? Close to any two alright. Any connectors, any ace, any pair and any two cards above an 8 at a guess.

SB decent-ish player is surely going to raise an overpair pre, so SCs and underpairs must be a fair part of his range here. Def would be raising any overpair and should raise AJ on that flop. Sets are possible but a long shot on a very draw heavy board. If he's getting tricky with a made hand you'll have position on him but would def be checking the turn regardless of card that falls. Range I'd set on him would be J7-JK, A8, K8, flush draw or open ender.

No love for taking control of the pot by check-raising here? We probably fold the CO and BTN who probably have air but I can definitely see us getting value from the SBs range...No love at all. We control the pot by keeping it smallish. Raising really scares off any hand we beat apart from a combo-draw which we don't really want to take on anyway. Unfortunately unless the turn is a low non-spade we'll have to re-evaluate our holding, but in a game like this I wouldn't be getting away from top pair too easy.

If CO calls too I'm dropping on any turn above a 7. Could be quite wrong, but that's my take on things and I'd play these type games pretty often.

[Keane]

Thanks for that.

The problem with just calling here as I see it is we very likely have the best hand now, but will probably be forced to fold the turn if any Ace, King or falls and any of the other three bet (I'm assuming the CO doesn't fold for 300 in a 1500 pot if he has an overcard or anything at all really).

Basically, if we don't take it down here we're severely limiting our chances of taking it down anywhere, which seems like it can't be the right move given our holding.

[Keane]

This flop spot sort of reminded me of a conversation I had with Red Joker a long time ago when he took a look at my stats for me:

Your W$WSF from the BB is on the low side so you could try picking up more limped pots.

I think a problem I've had is that when I hit a piece like mid or bottem pair I'm inclined to check/call a lot. The thinking is obv to keep the pot small with a marginal holding and also to allow villains to bluff at me with A-high on the river and that kind of thing. I guess the problem with it is that I'm probably allowing myself to be moved off hands fairly easily when double-barrelled or when scare cards hit. Would you recommend I take a stronger line with these sorts of hands by leading out a bit more? If so the question I'd ask is why exactly are we betting? Is it a thin value bet, turning my hand into something of a bluff or just some kind of protection for my hand?

Yeah it can be somewhat hard to define what the purpose of the bet is but it's mostly just a bet to take the pot down. Which is a fine reason to bet because the alternative of checking and playing a guessing game can be lower EV, even if we can't define the bet as being purely for value or as a bluff. You could maybe call it a 5 out semi-bluff if you wanted to. Check calling with those type of hands can be reasonable as well though.

It's sort of like when you open and get a caller IP and end up in a WA/WB, mid pair type situation. Most of the time when you're IP your default will be to check this back but when you're OOP your default should usually be to cbet it since the alternative of having to bluff catch OOP on 3 streets is far worse. When you check back IP you've shortened the play to 2 streets and you still have position.

Sort of illustrates what I was thinking a bit better. Any thoughts?

[Winning!]

check pre, c/call flop, reevaluate turn (mostly c/call again unless it gets raised or SB leads on a scary card), simples.

[Guest]

Bet the flop for sure imo.

[NuckChorris]

This flop spot sort of reminded me of a conversation I had with Red Joker a long time ago when he took a look at my stats for me:

Sort of illustrates what I was thinking a bit better. Any thoughts?

Online would be a very different game for this situation, in a bog standard casino game I'd play as I said. There's serious value in these games and you can definitely overthink a lot of hands.

[Mellor]

serial limper suggests to me he is a check calling cretin leads in a multi way pot so I doubt he has a FD or a worse Jack

He didn't lead, if he had it would be different.
But i'm not dumping to this action just yet. I call and check all turns.

Yeah it can be somewhat hard to define what the purpose of the bet is but it's mostly just a bet to take the pot down. Which is a fine reason to bet because the alternative of checking and playing a guessing game can be lower EV, even if we can't define the bet as being purely for value or as a bluff. You could maybe call it a 5 out semi-bluff if you wanted to. Check calling with those type of hands can be reasonable as well though.

I get what RJ is getting at here.
The only primary reasons to bet are as a bluff or for value.
But picking up dead money is a huge secondary reason. We don't really need to worry about defining the bluff vrs value range. But we should know what we are trying to do, ultimately.
In the hands described above (RJ and Keane, not OP), if the most profitable line is gettign the villain to fold and scoop the pot, then its a bluff. Regardless to the fact that we might have the best hand, that just means that later bets might be for value.


I don't like tryign to take it doen here. The Button may come along with anything and we'll never know where we are, but can't give up vrs his range. I much prefer to call and take the turn and complete two streets. I think it has a greater cEV compared to inflating the pot and reopening betting here.

[Keane]

I'm on my phone now do wont go into it, but came across something in a blue fire vid this evening that would be relevant to this, just want to remind myself to post about it tomoro.

[Keane]

Probably a bit late to be coming back to this now but on the odd chance that anyone's still interested the situation in the Samoleus video I was watching that informs this hand to an extent was as follows.

We defend our big blind to a 3x button raise with Q8 (100BB effective). Flop comes 874.

Our options are:

1. check-calling, which puts us in a very tough spot on a lot of turns (amplified in the OP with the extra players)
2. check-raising, which over-represents our hand somewhat, and as we probably aren't strong enough to continue betting most turns the villain can make us fold a lot of turns when he calls our CR and we check to him
3. leading the flop, where if raised we can be reasonably confident that we have the best hand and be quite happy to have gotten two bets in with it, considering the difficulty with which our opponent is going to have putting us on a hand when we check most turns to him, while we're also protecting the (likely) best hand from being drawn out on for free by leading.

Obv it's not the exact same situation, but I think the arguments for leading there are applicable in spots like these (deference to Nuck's experience of these sorts of live games obv, talking a bit more in general).

[Guest]

Are you saying to bet/call the flop here? That makes the turn tremendously difficult to play and we have a situation where our range is capped and his isn't and he's in position. He can raise KJo when we lead here, and put us in a world of pain on the turn when we call as we're rarely calling with a strong hand on this flop.
That leads me onto the point that people have such a wide variety of reactions to donking that unless you have a good read built up on them it makes the hand quite difficult to play when you're not closing the action. I find it easier to read people's barreling tendencies than how they play their range when led into, and this is a help particularly when multi-tabling where hand reading has to be done quickly.

[Keane]

Are you saying to bet/call the flop here? That makes the turn tremendously difficult to play and we have a situation where our range is capped and his isn't and he's in position. He can raise KJo when we lead here, and put us in a world of pain on the turn when we call as we're rarely calling with a strong hand on this flop.

Yeah I on the board in the OP I suppose it's easier for us to be dominated with our top pair than it is on the 874 board where we have Q8, hadn't thought of that.

You said earlier that you would definitely be leading the flop though, are you just bet folding most of the time?

That leads me onto the point that people have such a wide variety of reactions to donking that unless you have a good read built up on them it makes the hand quite difficult to play when you're not closing the action. I find it easier to read people's barreling tendencies than how they play their range when led into, and this is a help particularly when multi-tabling where hand reading has to be done quickly.

This is a bit beyond me at this point, but I've added it to my notes to come back to when I've gotten past 2NL

[Guest]

In the OP I would lead because it's a limped pot and we've a strong but vulnerable hand that's at the top of our range in a multiway pot. The example you gave is a totally different dynamic being a deeper stacked cash game in a HU pot that has been raised.

[TommyGunne]

Check your option pre imo.

Not leading flop vs these guys is criminal.

Call now.

Unsure why there is much discussion.

[Closed_Account]

As played perhaps the most straightforward call in history.

[Hectorjelly]

Funny thread. Is BK trolling in the theory section as well now?