Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Mammy told me not to come.

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Originally posted by brady23 View Post
    I critiqued some people about their opinions of this situation yesterday but you are way off the mark and are making very little sense tbh.
    She is being personally attacked for costing the state a certain amount, a significant amount of which is not something that she can control. That's my point.
    Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

    Comment


      I must say I do find the idea of listing children's allowance as an income source and lambasting someone for receiving it a bit weird, particularly coming from wealthy people with children (and children's allowance cheques) of their own.

      Children's allowance is something we as a society have decided to give to everyone who has kids to make the process of rearing them a bit easier. Really it's money for the child, not money for the parent. We're either for it or agin it, and it seems by and large we're all for it until a parent comes along that we decide we don't like.

      Saying 'not many people have 50k income' is fair enough, but it's equally fair I bet to say 'not many people count the children's allowance they receive when they calculate their own income'.
      Last edited by Keane; 13-09-18, 10:53.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
        It's clearly not a wind-up.

        It reads like exasperation at someone who has waded into a debate throwing insults but brings zero actual facts or analysis.

        If you went into a work meeting in this frame of mind, you would be told to STFU quicksmart. And rightly so.
        Ah heyor. Simply putting figures on a spreadsheet and presented as if she is personally responsible for them and pocketing the money is what I had the issue with.

        Pointing out that the HAP goes to the landlord and not her is factual. Pointing out that it's not simply a case of "why didn't she take X" or "why didn't she do Y" is factual.

        And this isn't a work meeting, so isn't even close to a good analogy there.
        Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Zod View Post
          She is being personally attacked for costing the state a certain amount, a significant amount of which is not something that she can control. That's my point.
          The fact she is being attacked about the amount of welfare she is receiving doesn't mean the facts shouldn't be presented. Your issue with the person delivering them is your issue.

          Furthermore, your personal analysis of the amount of disposable income she has isn't equivalent to a PAYE person having a similar amount is in no way based in fact.

          In my personal opinion as I highlighted yesterday I think your opinion that she shouldn't be somewhat "forced" to take perfectly adequate housing in an area in relative close proximity to her home when she has 7 kids isn't a morally right thing to do. I agree that community friends/family and schooling should be considered but appropriate housing should be the priority imo.
          Last edited by Guest; 13-09-18, 10:59.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Zod View Post
            Pointing out that the HAP goes to the landlord and not her is factual. Pointing out that it's not simply a case of "why didn't she take X" or "why didn't she do Y" is factual.
            It doesn't matter that the money goes to the landlord and not to her. The outcome is identical. It's why the State taxes benefits-in-kind.

            Secondly, if you are drowning and someone throws you a perfectly workable lifeboat it is somewhat disingenuous to refuse it on the basis that its not the lifeboat you'd prefer.

            The social security net is designed (imperfectly) to create a basic floor below which we do not want to see people fall. Where children are involved, in particular, we take extra steps to secure that. It doesn't always work.

            What the system cannot do is allow for any great amount of choice within that. If you need to rely on the State's social welfare system then you simply have to accept what the State can supply.
            You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
            World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

            Comment


              Originally posted by brady23 View Post
              The fact she is being attacked about the amount of welfare she is receiving doesn't mean the facts shouldn't be presented. Your issue with the person delivering them is your issue.

              Furthermore, you're personal analysis of the amount of disposable income she has isn't equivalent to a PAYE person having a similar amount is in no way based in fact.
              I never mentioned or compared her benefits to that of a PAYE worker's earnings, that was others. My issue is with using figures which she isn't personally responsible for against her as if she was.

              In my personal opinion as I highlighted yesterday I think your opinion that she shouldn't be somewhat "forced" to take perfectly adequate housing in an area in relative close proximity to her home when she has 7 kids isn't a morally right thing to do. I agree that community friends/family and schooling should be considered but appropriate housing should be the priority imo.
              "appropriate housing" imo though should include some concept of security of tenancy, which is sadly lacking across the rental sector, not just in HAP. She had already been forced to move more than once in the previous 18 months due to landlord's ending the tenancy. Hr moving around different HAP properties is only postponing the issue. Indeed, the HAP property she was put into she was told would be for 6 months but ended up being less than 3 weeks as the Landlord had already leased the property from the following month (and which the landlord had told the council would be happening).
              Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

              Comment


                Family of 9 for 60k doesn't seem horrifically bad especially for an outlier and the fact that fixing the infrastructure would reduce the HAP part of that significantly.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Kayroo View Post
                  It doesn't matter that the money goes to the landlord and not to her. The outcome is identical. It's why the State taxes benefits-in-kind.

                  Secondly, if you are drowning and someone throws you a perfectly workable lifeboat it is somewhat disingenuous to refuse it on the basis that its not the lifeboat you'd prefer.
                  In this case the lifeboat being offered was being told you'd float about for a while before being thrown out into the water again.

                  What the system cannot do is allow for any great amount of choice within that. If you need to rely on the State's social welfare system then you simply have to accept what the State can supply.
                  which is what she ended up doing.
                  Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by bohsman View Post
                    Family of 9 for 60k doesn't seem horrifically bad especially for an outlier and the fact that fixing the infrastructure would reduce the HAP part of that significantly.
                    110k.
                    "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Gimmeabreak
                      FYI Zod, just to remind you of your starting point in all this.
                      and I stand by it. She isn't being written a cheque for 50k to spend on what she wishes. she isn't demanding that she be given that money. she wanted and still wants security of housing for her family and is being attacked on ideological grounds for that, in this case by a man with a history of milking the state himself.
                      Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                        110k.
                        the kids would still be entitled to children's allowance regardless of the fathers status so lets not bring that into the "spreadsheet".
                        Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Zod View Post
                          I never mentioned or compared her benefits to that of a PAYE worker's earnings, that was others. My issue is with using figures which she isn't personally responsible for against her as if she was.
                          .
                          Originally posted by Zod View Post
                          fuckin g lol at accepting a graph by FF Wicklow PR grifter Stephen Kearon at face value, and assuming the benefits are equivalent to cash in hand.
                          It was your first post.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                            It was your first post.
                            Again, my point is that she isn't being written a cheque for 50k from the state.
                            Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Zod View Post
                              Again, my point is that she isn't being written a cheque for 50k from the state.
                              Everyone is aware of that, I think people are confused as to why you think the distinction is important.

                              Hence the questions about 'do my mortgage/rent payments not come out of my income' I guess

                              Comment


                                I fully accept I may not be getting my point across properly, so I'll step out of this.
                                Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by Zod View Post
                                  Again, my point is that she isn't being written a cheque for 50k from the state.
                                  That's just being pedantic.
                                  The primary difference between her income and a PAYE is her slight lack of autonomy over where it goes which seems like a fair sacrifice.

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by Zod View Post
                                    and I stand by it. She isn't being written a cheque for 50k to spend on what she wishes. she isn't demanding that she be given that money. she wanted and still wants security of housing for her family and is being attacked on ideological grounds for that, in this case by a man with a history of milking the state himself.
                                    If a family work very hard to earn a pay cheque of 80K then they have no choice but to pay 30 K of it in tax and then spend whatever proportion they choose to in rent.
                                    Sure they have ,slightly more, choice than the HAP tennant but its still rent that has to be paid and each and every choice the workers make make comes at a cost to them.
                                    Turning millions into thousands

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by Keane View Post
                                      Everyone is aware of that, I think people are confused as to why you think the distinction is important.

                                      Hence the questions about 'do my mortgage/rent payments not come out of my income' I guess
                                      It's important when it is presented as if she is to blame for the cost to the state.
                                      Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                                      Comment


                                        On a different topic, 'We were tourists visiting that wonderful Salisbury Cathedral we've heard so much about it' is quite the defence, especially from a duo who arguably look like the two least likely cathedral tourists possible.



                                        Gotta love the KGB sense of humour.

                                        Comment


                                          Well this is bizzare

                                          Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
                                          Turning millions into thousands

                                          Comment


                                            Originally posted by Zod View Post
                                            It's important when it is presented as if she is to blame for the cost to the state.
                                            Do you really think that is the narrative people are trying to present?

                                            Clue: its not.
                                            People are concerned that here is a clear case, albeit an outlier, where there is a family income of at least 110K in benefits that is way out of the range of most working people.

                                            In fairness there is a debate to be had here about housing, HAP and the trade off between working and welfare and you're contribution is valued and welcome, but your irrational insistence that benefits money is not the same as income is just wrong and you have gone no way towards justifying it.
                                            Last edited by Strewelpeter; 13-09-18, 11:46.
                                            Turning millions into thousands

                                            Comment


                                              Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                                              Do you really think that is the narrative people are trying to present?

                                              Clue: its not.
                                              In a context of a discussion involving jokes about how wide her hole is and how much she must "love cock", of how she should just take what the state tell her to take regardless of suitability, in a discussion which takes numbers on a spreadshoot devoid of context then yes, it's very easy to see that as the narrative.


                                              But yes, maybe I should just go back to my echo chamber and "stop playing the man and not the ball".
                                              Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                                              Comment


                                                Originally posted by Zod View Post
                                                how she should just take what the state tell her to take regardless of suitability.
                                                That part is certainly worthy of discussion, in a context where the family on a gross 80K of have to commute for hours and pay all the additional costs to trade on suitability.
                                                Turning millions into thousands

                                                Comment


                                                  Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                                                  That part is certainly worthy of discussion, in a context where the family on a gross 80K of have to commute for hours and pay all the additional costs to trade on suitability.
                                                  suitability is not just location though. Have you seen some of the properties that get offered to people on the HAP scheme or as emergency housing?

                                                  edited to add: why only that section as worthy of discussion though?
                                                  Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                                                  Comment


                                                    Denny's guy again.

                                                    Absolutely fucking nailing the bullshit. Hero.


                                                    An item about halfway through the program spotlighted the increase in homelessness in Britain. Strictly speaking, this was not really news, since the increase could hardly have occurred overnight, or indeed over a very short period; and, of course, the item turned out to be opinion masquerading as information. Its tendentiousness was obvious.

                                                    The story largely consisted of interviews with two homeless single mothers of young children. They were temporarily housed in what seemed to be an old industrial and office block, converted into tiny living spaces, almost like cubicles. No one, I think, would have found it pleasant to live there.

                                                    The item drew attention to the fact that the owner of the block was making a very good income from the tenants who, the BBC told us, were each paying hundreds of pounds a week to live there. This was a very strange—and dishonest—way of putting it, since it was obviously not the homeless who were paying to live there, but the taxpayers who were paying for them to do so.

                                                    The two young mothers spoke of the difficulty of living in such a confined space, with so few appliances. One complained that she had only a microwave oven to cook with, a good example of the rhetorical device of suggestio falsi: in this case, had it not been for the injustice that forced her to live in this fashion, she would have been cooking healthful and well-balanced meals. Suffice it to say that surveys of eating habits in Britain suggest no such thing.

                                                    The two mothers, both quite young, complained bitterly of their living conditions; what struck me most was that the interviewer did not think to ask (or, if he did, it was rigorously edited out) how the situation in which they found themselves had arisen in the first place. It is possible, though unlikely, that the two young women had contributed absolutely nothing to their own misfortunes by, for example, making unwise decisions. It is possible, though unlikely, that they had no relatives in a position to help them, and that for them the state was the only conceivable source of social solidarity and support. But in any case, these matters did not arise; to have asked such questions would have been to blame the victims.

                                                    While it is perfectly true that no child should be brought up in such degraded and degrading circumstances, at least not nowadays, the blame for it was placed entirely on society, meaning the state and the taxpayers. The only solution offered was for the state to be more generous towards unfortunates such as the two young mothers. That this turned children into de facto tools of extortion, and that it made everyone responsible for the welfare of children except their parents, apparently did not occur to the producers of the news story. They passed on to other subjects, secure in the glow of their own sanctity
                                                    "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                    Comment


                                                      Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                                                      That part is certainly worthy of discussion, in a context where the family on a gross 80K of have to commute for hours and pay all the additional costs to trade on suitability.
                                                      I know I love commuting 800km a week for my job

                                                      Zod, I think your point around narrative has some relevance in regards to the publication of graphs like that as when you see the amount of "disposable" income that lady has makes it simply more salient for people and it can become very nasty.
                                                      That said, I think your anger has been somewhat misdirected as this thread has been quite egalitarian and as AJ highlighted, it has become more so in recent times.

                                                      It's quite clear you're well intended but I think you're simply missing the mark here.

                                                      Comment


                                                        Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                                                        Do you really think that is the narrative people are trying to present?

                                                        Clue: its not.
                                                        People are concerned that here is a clear case, albeit an outlier, where there is a family income of at least 110K in benefits that is way out of the range of most working people.

                                                        In fairness there is a debate to be had here about housing, HAP and the trade off between working and welfare and you're contribution is valued and welcome, but your irrational insistence that benefits money is not the same as income is just wrong and you have gone no way towards justifying it.
                                                        are you seriously including the cost to put the dude in prison in this?
                                                        People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                                        Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
                                                        https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

                                                        Comment


                                                          So to ask the Theodore Dalrymple question: how is it that Ms Cash found herself in that situation and how much blame must be placed at her own doorstep?
                                                          "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                          Comment


                                                            Originally posted by DeadParrot View Post
                                                            are you seriously including the cost to put the dude in prison in this?
                                                            You're right. It's not income.

                                                            It is cost though. That we taxpayers are forking out for.
                                                            "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                            Comment


                                                              Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                                              Denny's guy again.

                                                              Absolutely fucking nailing the bullshit. Hero.
                                                              This is a collection of some of his essays:


                                                              Comment


                                                                Originally posted by Zod View Post
                                                                suitability is not just location though. Have you seen some of the properties that get offered to people on the HAP scheme or as emergency housing?

                                                                edited to add: why only that section as worthy of discussion though?
                                                                Sure location is just one factor, and yes I have seen lots of terrible properties being presented to the market.
                                                                We've been through the numbers and agree they are accurate even if you don't like where they come from.
                                                                As regards the joke I'm not interested in discussing individual cases of people I don't know but that is mild compared to most of the comment I've heard and unlike the real hateful stuff has the benefit of being witty.
                                                                Turning millions into thousands

                                                                Comment


                                                                  I must underestimate the utility of prisoners income

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                                                    Denny's guy again.

                                                                    Absolutely fucking nailing the bullshit. Hero.
                                                                    one thing on this:
                                                                    [what struck me most was that the interviewer did not think to ask (or, if he did, it was rigorously edited out) how the situation in which they found themselves had arisen in the first place.
                                                                    While I don't believe in abdicating personal responsibility, we as a society should aim to solve the problems people are actually in and that being Captain Hindsight is only worth anything when the problem has been solved. There's also an assumption that because they are in a terrible situation it must be because of poor personal choices made because they are poor (an assumption he repeats later on that complaints of a lack of proper cooking facilities can be disregarded because sure they'll only cook junk anyway, what with them being poor).
                                                                    Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      Originally posted by Gimmeabreak
                                                                      It says far more about you, than it does about me, that again you choose to attack an individual rather than support your statements.

                                                                      Facts are Facts - the ideology of the person who shares them doesn't matter? If I can tell you that it is 16 degrees in Dublin today, is it different that you saying that it is 16 degrees in Dublin today just on the basis of our personal ideologies?

                                                                      How about refuting the spreadsheet that RDIII posted?

                                                                      It may come as a shock to you but the bulk of what a person earns goes on mortgage, clothing, food, etc.. What difference is it if I get it as a PAYE earner or as a handout from the state? I'd really like you to elaborate on this?

                                                                      Despite what you might like, your subscription to the below thesis doesn't really wash. It might work in your echo chamber, but it doesn't really work in the real world.

                                                                      FUCK YOU

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        Originally posted by Zod View Post
                                                                        one thing on this:

                                                                        While I don't believe in abdicating personal responsibility, we as a society should aim to solve the problems people are actually in and that being Captain Hindsight is only worth anything when the problem has been solved. There's also an assumption that because they are in a terrible situation it must be because of poor personal choices made because they are poor (an assumption he repeats later on that complaints of a lack of proper cooking facilities can be disregarded because sure they'll only cook junk anyway, what with them being poor).
                                                                        What you describe isn't problem solving. It's actually the opposite.

                                                                        Problem solving should be scalable, based on sound principles and based in long-term strategy.

                                                                        Your approach is short-termist, possibly because thinking about root causes objectively might lead one to conclusions inimical to ones beliefs.
                                                                        Last edited by Raoul Duke III; 13-09-18, 12:11.
                                                                        "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                                                          What your describe isn't problem solving. It's actually the opposite.
                                                                          May as well just go back to JS Mill arguing for refusing aid to the Irish starving to death when they should just pull themselves up by the bootstraps.
                                                                          Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            Originally posted by DeadParrot View Post
                                                                            are you seriously including the cost to put the dude in prison in this?
                                                                            That was disingenuous

                                                                            But I'm getting nowhere with pointing out that a family earning 80K have less income and there is something very wrong with that.

                                                                            I have a young lad close to me with three small kids renting a place that would be considered 'unsuitable' and is bursting his hole 7 days a week just to try and keep it all ticking over, it would be so easy for them to just give up.
                                                                            Turning millions into thousands

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                                                              You're right. It's not income.

                                                                              It is cost though. That we taxpayers are forking out for.
                                                                              Maybe we should include the cost of the wear and tear to the pavement in public areas her 9 kids cause, get a true cost how much she costs us
                                                                              airport, lol

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                                                                                I have a young lad close to me with three small kids renting a place that would be considered 'unsuitable' and is bursting his hole 7 days a week just to try and keep it all ticking over, it would be so easy for them to just give up.
                                                                                The issue here is the cost of renting and the cost of raising children, something which gets neglected when it is easier to blame the person on social welfare.
                                                                                Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  Originally posted by Zod View Post
                                                                                  May as well just go back to JS Mill arguing for refusing aid to the Irish starving to death when they should just pull themselves up by the bootstraps.
                                                                                  Oh, for God's sake Zod.

                                                                                  You've had a completely emotional reaction to this debate. Not one poster has agreed with you, which probably shows how off the piste you are here.

                                                                                  And now you're reduced to crap like the above. Farcical.
                                                                                  "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                                                                    Oh, for God's sake Zod.

                                                                                    You've had a completely emotional reaction to this debate. Not one poster has agreed with you, which probably shows how off the piste you are here.

                                                                                    And now you're reduced to crap like the above. Farcical.
                                                                                    How is Dalrymple's "where is the personal responisbility?" any different to Mills "where is the personal responsibility?"

                                                                                    As for who is agreeing with me or not.. I'm getting accused of being in an echo chamber?
                                                                                    Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      Originally posted by Gimmeabreak
                                                                                      really, care to elaborate for me?
                                                                                      Think you missed the joke there.
                                                                                      No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        Originally posted by Zod View Post
                                                                                        The issue here is the cost of renting and the cost of raising children, something which gets neglected when it is easier to blame the person on social welfare.
                                                                                        If we are continually trying to turn this into an emotive debate by saying that anyone who points out the reality of how social welfare benefits work is trying to blame people.
                                                                                        Of course an outlier where an individual has an exceptionally large family and appears to want better conditions than people who have to pay for them themselves can afford is going to attract comment, that doesn't mean that comment on the reality of the system is blaming people.
                                                                                        Turning millions into thousands

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          Originally posted by Gimmeabreak
                                                                                          really, care to elaborate for me?
                                                                                          I think it was a riff on something I had posted previously.
                                                                                          Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            Originally posted by Zod View Post
                                                                                            one thing on this:

                                                                                            While I don't believe in abdicating personal responsibility, we as a society should aim to solve the problems people are actually in and that being Captain Hindsight is only worth anything when the problem has been solved. There's also an assumption that because they are in a terrible situation it must be because of poor personal choices made because they are poor (an assumption he repeats later on that complaints of a lack of proper cooking facilities can be disregarded because sure they'll only cook junk anyway, what with them being poor).
                                                                                            It's written from the prospective of someone who worked in this area for their whole life. It's not captain Hindsight, his view is that society is perpetuating and enlarging this problem. He's not writing out the two women specifically.

                                                                                            (an assumption he repeats later on that complaints of a lack of proper cooking facilities can be disregarded because sure they'll only cook junk anyway, what with them being poor)
                                                                                            It's not a throwaway remark in the BBV, it's based on years of observation. And the difference between British and immigrants in the same situation.


                                                                                            Apart from the antisocial disregard of the common good that each little such act of littering implies (hundreds a week in the space of 800 yards alone), the vast quantity of food consumed in the street has deeper implications. I tell the doctors that in all my visits to the white households in the area, of which I've made hundreds, never—not once—have I seen any evidence of cooking. The nearest to this activity that I have witnessed is the reheating of prepared and packaged food, usually in a microwave. And by the same token, I have never seen any evidence of meals taken in common as a social activity—unless two people eating hamburgers together in the street as they walk along be counted as social.


                                                                                            This is not to say that I haven't seen people eating at home; on the contrary, they are often eating when I arrive. They eat alone, even if other members of the household are present, and never at table; they slump on a sofa in front of the television. Everyone in the household eats according to his own whim and timetable. Even in so elementary a matter as eating, therefore, there is no self-discipline but rather an imperative obedience to impulse. Needless to say, the opportunity for conversation or sociality that a meal taken together provides is lost. English meals are thus solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.


                                                                                            I ask the doctors to compare the shops in areas inhabited by poor whites and those where poor Indian immigrants live. It is an instructive comparison. The shops the Indians frequent are piled high with all kinds of attractive fresh produce that, by supermarket standards, is astonishingly cheap. The women take immense trouble over their purchases and make subtle discriminations. There are no pre-cooked meals for them. By contrast, a shop that poor whites patronize offers a restricted choice, largely of relatively expensive prepared foods that at most require only the addition of hot water.


                                                                                            The difference between the two groups cannot be explained by differences in income, for they are insignificant. Poverty isn't the issue. And the willingness of Indians to take trouble over what they eat and to treat meals as important social occasions that impose obligations and at times require the subordination of personal desire is indicative of an entire attitude to life that often permits them, despite their current low incomes, to advance up the social scale. Alarmingly, though, the natural urge of the children of immigrants to belong to the predominant local culture is beginning to create an Indian underclass (at least among young males): and the taste for fast food and all that such a taste implies is swiftly developing among them.


                                                                                            When such slovenliness about food extends to all other spheres of life, when people satisfy every appetite with the same minimal effort and commitment, no wonder they trap themselves in squalor. I have little trouble showing my doctors from India and the Philippines that most of our patients take a fast-food approach to all their pleasures, obtaining them no less fleetingly and unstrenuously. They have no cultural activity they can call their own, and their lives seem, even to them, empty of purpose. In the welfare state, mere survival is not the achievement that it is, say, in the cities of Africa, and therefore it cannot confer the self-respect that is the precondition of self-improvement.


                                                                                            By the end of three months my doctors have, without exception, reversed their original opinion that the welfare state, as exemplified by England, represents the acme of civilization. On the contrary, they see it now as creating a miasma of subsidized apathy that blights the lives of its supposed beneficiaries. They come to realize that a system of welfare that makes no moral judgments in allocating economic rewards promotes antisocial egotism. The spiritual impoverishment of the population seems to them worse than anything they have ever known in their own countries. And what they see is all the worse, of course, because it should be so much better. The wealth that enables everyone effortlessly to have enough food should be liberating, not imprisoning. Instead, it has created a large caste of people for whom life is, in effect, a limbo in which they have nothing to hope for and nothing to fear, nothing to gain and nothing to lose. It is a life emptied of meaning.


                                                                                            "On the whole," said one Filipino doctor to me, "life is preferable in the slums of Manila." He said it without any illusions as to the quality of life in Manila.
                                                                                            .

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              Originally posted by Gimmeabreak
                                                                                              really, care to elaborate for me?
                                                                                              I was filling in for Zod. That was his answer last time you debated with him.

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                                                                                                If we are continually trying to turn this into an emotive debate by saying that anyone who points out the reality of how social welfare benefits work is trying to blame people.
                                                                                                Of course an outlier where an individual has an exceptionally large family and appears to want better conditions than people who have to pay for them themselves can afford is going to attract comment, that doesn't mean that comment on the reality of the system is blaming people.
                                                                                                I'm not saying that anyone commenting on the realities is automatically blaming people. I'm saying that it's easier (and done more often) to direct the narrative to attacking social welfare recipients rather than attacking why it costs so much to rent or childcare or education.
                                                                                                Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                                                                                  You're right. It's not income.

                                                                                                  It is cost though. That we taxpayers are forking out for.
                                                                                                  Best add in all the multiple kids ECE free Montessori places too

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    Originally posted by eoghan104 View Post
                                                                                                    I was filling in for Zod. That was his answer last time you debated with him.
                                                                                                    actually it was "go fuck yourself" and was only partially serious.
                                                                                                    Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                      Anyone care to lighten it up and also get nostalgic with a poker hand?!
                                                                                                      Playing last night in Fitz and this hand caused a lot of debate.

                                                                                                      UTG raises to 10 off 400 stack, MP raises to 40 off 140 stack. Me, in the SB playing 450 look down at JJ. The MP player is generally ABC but a bit steamed, the UTG is unknown.

                                                                                                      I decided to raise too 100 planning to fold to a shove. Both players call.
                                                                                                      Flop J98 and I bet the 300 UTG has left.

                                                                                                      Thoughts?

                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                        Originally posted by eoghan104 View Post
                                                                                                        Anyone care to lighten it up and also get nostalgic with a poker hand?!
                                                                                                        Playing last night in Fitz and this hand caused a lot of debate.

                                                                                                        UTG raises to 10 off 400 stack, MP raises to 40 off 140 stack. Me, in the SB playing 450 look down at JJ. The MP player is generally ABC but a bit steamed, the UTG is unknown.

                                                                                                        I decided to raise too 100 planning to fold to a shove. Both players call.
                                                                                                        Flop J98 and I bet the 300 UTG has left.

                                                                                                        Thoughts?
                                                                                                        Snap shove gg ul?
                                                                                                        Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                                          Originally posted by eoghan104 View Post
                                                                                                          Anyone care to lighten it up and also get nostalgic with a poker hand?!
                                                                                                          Playing last night in Fitz and this hand caused a lot of debate.

                                                                                                          UTG raises to 10 off 400 stack, MP raises to 40 off 140 stack. Me, in the SB playing 450 look down at JJ. The MP player is generally ABC but a bit steamed, the UTG is unknown.

                                                                                                          I decided to raise too 100 planning to fold to a shove. Both players call.
                                                                                                          Flop J98 and I bet the 300 UTG has left.

                                                                                                          Thoughts?
                                                                                                          flop is prob a range check, but its live cash so yeah just stick it in pre seems fine although puke when the 140 stack puts it in but what can we do other than sigh and call.

                                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                                            The UTG called and had aces the MP had QQ and all the money went in.

                                                                                                            The discussion after was all about how the UTG played it bad by not shoving over my 100 pre-flop. I disagreed and thought it was a good flat. I fold JJ to the shove and him only calling would lead me to believe I was ahead.

                                                                                                            One guy said he would rather take down the 100 pre incase someone hit a set against his aces! Poker is dead.

                                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                                              This was a very strange—and dishonest—way of putting it, since it was obviously not the homeless who were paying to live there, but the taxpayers who were paying for them to do so.
                                                                                                              I guess the HAP isn't income after all?

                                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                                People work hard to provide the best for their children. In her situation I reckon what she has done is her best equivalent of that given her current circumstances. It's a world and worldview most of us can't imagine.

                                                                                                                Get an education, work hard, and prosper in life is a viewpoint most of us were given an opportunity to accept or not. Many of us were also blessed to have the circumstances, both internal and external, to make something of ourselves and earn the financial rewards of it.

                                                                                                                I just don't think the average traveller woman grew up with any of that.

                                                                                                                I don't think that a sense of entitlement is correlated with socioeconomic status. People like her have a sense of entitlement that brings up a natural sense of righteous indignation and anger at her for being "a cheat".

                                                                                                                But I also view a similar sense of entitlement in those complaining that they pay tax on their significant incomes which goes to her and the like. As if they rose from the muck against all odds to be earning what they earn. You've been blessed, born with abilities, had them nurtured, brought up with an ethic of personal responsibility and possibility in life, and structures to facilitate it. You probably don't work harder than a general operative or cleaner.

                                                                                                                I think people grossly underestimate the effect of conditions and overestimate the effect of their own "character", as if it somehow emerged from nowhere. Don't believe you would be who you are or where you are if you born in that woman's circumstances.

                                                                                                                She's a self entitled cow, and we're self entitled pigs. The solution isn't reducing welfare entitlements, it's creating more and better opportunities for all of society. Surely history is clear on this point.

                                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                                  Jesus great post. Just breezes in and kills both sides arguments. Some cunt tbf.

                                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                                    Originally posted by hotspur View Post
                                                                                                                    People work hard to provide the best for their children. In her situation I reckon what she has done is her best equivalent of that given her current circumstances. It's a world and worldview most of us can't imagine.

                                                                                                                    Get an education, work hard, and prosper in life is a viewpoint most of us were given an opportunity to accept or not. Many of us were also blessed to have the circumstances, both internal and external, to make something of ourselves and earn the financial rewards of it.

                                                                                                                    I just don't think the average traveller woman grew up with any of that.

                                                                                                                    I don't think that a sense of entitlement is correlated with socioeconomic status. People like her have a sense of entitlement that brings up a natural sense of righteous indignation and anger at her for being "a cheat".

                                                                                                                    But I also view a similar sense of entitlement in those complaining that they pay tax on their significant incomes which goes to her and the like. As if they rose from the muck against all odds to be earning what they earn. You've been blessed, born with abilities, had them nurtured, brought up with an ethic of personal responsibility and possibility in life, and structures to facilitate it. You probably don't work harder than a general operative or cleaner.

                                                                                                                    I think people grossly underestimate the effect of conditions and overestimate the effect of their own "character", as if it somehow emerged from nowhere. Don't believe you would be who you are or where you are if you born in that woman's circumstances.

                                                                                                                    She's a self entitled cow, and we're self entitled pigs. The solution isn't reducing welfare entitlements, it's creating more and better opportunities for all of society. Surely history is clear on this point.
                                                                                                                    Great post.

                                                                                                                    I often think to myself if I had been dropped into a halting site at birth and a baby from the halting site had been dropped in my house. The idea that I'd be in a better state than the kid who I was swapped with 30 years later is totally laughable. You would have to be an out and out fool to credit it.

                                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                                      Originally posted by Keane View Post
                                                                                                                      I guess the HAP isn't income after all?
                                                                                                                      Shhh, you'll be accused of agreeing with me.
                                                                                                                      Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                                        Originally posted by Zod View Post
                                                                                                                        Shhh, you'll be accused of agreeing with me.
                                                                                                                        I thought it was fairly obvious that to varying extents many/most people do.

                                                                                                                        I agree that you flounced in throwing fucks around like a gowl in fairness

                                                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                                                          Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                                                                                                          Denny's guy again.

                                                                                                                          what struck me most was that the interviewer did not think to ask (or, if he did, it was rigorously edited out) how the situation in which they found themselves had arisen in the first place.

                                                                                                                          Absolutely fucking nailing the bullshit. Hero.
                                                                                                                          I would have thought the way people end up homeless was fairly well established. First google response for America:
                                                                                                                          For women in particular, domestic violence is a leading cause of homelessness. the country report that top causes of homelessness among families were: (1) lack of affordable housing, (2) unemployment, (3) poverty, and (4) low wages, in that order.

                                                                                                                          How does that change anything for the story in general? All seems a bit victim blaming to me.

                                                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                                                          Working...
                                                                                                                          X