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    Call down line check

    Villain is 17/14 with an af of 3, 3 betting 4.5% pretty much the same amount in every position over 1.4k hands, I assume most of these hands are mined as I've no notes on him and we've no history, haven't played any big pots together and he'd see me as a standard reg I'd guess. He check raises the flop 15% of the time and seems to barrel alot with a high turn and river c bet over small samples.

    General thoughts? He reps so little, by the river only quads, two full houses and a rivered straight he sometimes doesn't barrel the turn with or (effectively) shove the river with, he leaves under 7 dollars behind with his bet for some reason. I also doubt he calls pre flop with 45 and we'd assume pretty much never with 63 either so we can effectively rule out one of the houses, and sometimes check calls 33 and 66 on that flop, not to mention sometimes 3 bets pre. My hand is face up as either some kind of ace or sometimes a turned FH

    Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    Hero (Button) ($116.84)
    SB ($219.02)
    BB ($100)
    MP ($53.03)
    UTG ($193.26)

    Preflop: Hero is Button with A, 7
    2 folds, Hero bets $2.50, 1 fold, BB calls $1.50

    Flop: ($5.50) 6, 3, A (2 players)
    BB checks, Hero bets $4, BB raises $12.92, Hero calls $8.92

    Turn: ($31.34) 6 (2 players)
    BB bets $22.33, Hero calls $22.33

    River: ($76) 2 (2 players)
    BB bets $55.50, Hero calls $55.50

    Total pot: $187
    Last edited by Sledgejammer; 01-02-10, 19:01.
    "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

    #2
    I probably fold to the check raise and make a note against the player.
    "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

    Comment


      #3
      Would you fold AK to the c/r, though? Our hand is essentially the same v his c/r range, which for most regs on this board is completely polarised
      "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

      Comment


        #4
        I suppose not. I hadn't really though about it on that level. Do you think he's never flatting and then check-raising AK or AQ here? Or is his range entirely air, two pair and sets?
        "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

        Comment


          #5
          Is 2.50 your standard raise preflop or just on the button (only asking out of interest)?

          Weird enough hand and I don't mind how you played it but I think I'd be folding it sometimes on the turn, but quite often on the river. It's hard to see what value hands he has but if he is competent it's a strange move for him to 3 barrel bluff here as your hand is nearly always Ax. I'd just expect him to give up on the river so often. I also think big A's are in his range and a hand like AQ is what I'd expect to see more often than not.

          Comment


            #6
            I can see a reg calling in the blinds occasionally with AT-AJ type hand but then to turn it into a weird check raise like this would be unlikely as hes just probably folding out too many dominated hands without getting enough value.

            On the flop i guess its a thin line between making a stand or waiting until we've a bit more information about the player and i'm sure people could make a good case for both.

            I dont think in general AK-AQ shows up here too often so im not overly concerned about that at 100nl and he also has a high c/r although only a small sample so maybe not reliable but i certainly dont mind calling with position on the flop.

            Hes most like range here is air/undeprairs, 76,65,45,33,66 which is a small range but the 76,65 combos are certainly possible so although it looks like hes flop c/r range is tiny and theres a lot more bluffs there is plenty of combinations that could have improved him on the turn, i guess if the turn was anything other than 2,6,7 then im happy to call again but i think 6 is both a bad card for us and also a hand that he cant represent too much so i think hes follow up OOP is probably strong.

            We don't have much info but if hes c/r OOP and bluffing when hes perceived range is so small then you'll have plenty of opportunities to take advantage of him when you've a bit more info

            As played 45 made it on the river, 76,65,33,66 are all ahead and i dont think hed have the balls to keep bluffing when he can rep so little so i like a fold on the turn and certainly now on the river. Also ive noticed when bad players leave a small amount behind they have a big hand a lot more often than not, rarely see tags doing it though. So i think its a bad bluff a lot less often than a big hand here so without info if hes capable of bluffing like this id let it go.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by AndyFB View Post
              I suppose not. I hadn't really though about it on that level. Do you think he's never flatting and then check-raising AK or AQ here? Or is his range entirely air, two pair and sets?
              I think he's 3 betting AK something very close to 100% of the time, AQ a fair bit and rarely if ever taking this line post flop with AQ if he does flat it anyway.

              Is 2.50 your standard raise preflop or just on the button (only asking out of interest)?

              Weird enough hand and I don't mind how you played it but I think I'd be folding it sometimes on the turn, but quite often on the river. It's hard to see what value hands he has but if he is competent it's a strange move for him to 3 barrel bluff here as your hand is nearly always Ax. I'd just expect him to give up on the river so often. I also think big A's are in his range and a hand like AQ is what I'd expect to see more often than not.
              It's just my standard button open most of the time, if there's a passive fish in one of the blinds I go back to 3x. Do you really think he's taking this line with AQ? I'd usually need a very specific read on a reg at this level before I'd put AQ in his range for playing like this.

              DVDfan, yeah, I have to agree with most of that, but weirdly on the bet sizing thing I saw an almost identical situation a couple of sessions back with very little left on a river bet that was a bluff from another reggy kinda player. Ofc that doesn't mean all that much, but I think it's something people are starting to do to try and level people a bit more. I think that sizing tell as a tell would mean alot more from a fish, in that case I'd definitely weight their range far more to monsters.

              I think my decision point is somewhat on the turn, though. I think he knows if he's firing that turn with anything worse than ax then he'll fire again on all rivers, I don't think I'd like calling the turn and folding the river because I think all his bluffs continue and if anything he bets slightly less of his value range on the river, obviously having more reads here would be way better but that was my thought process on the turn.
              "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

              Comment


                #8
                I dont mind your calling of the flop checkraise but I'd lean towards a fold when the board pairs on the turn and he fires again. If i did call the turn then I'd fold the river because even 45 has got there now. I suppose you could make an argument for calling down here just for the value of information on his checkraising range for the future but I'd rather just fold. A7 is definitely not the same as AK in this spot also.

                Originally posted by Sledgejammer View Post
                I think he's 3 betting AK something very close to 100% of the time, AQ a fair bit and rarely if ever taking this line post flop with AQ if he does flat it anyway.



                It's just my standard button open most of the time, if there's a passive fish in one of the blinds I go back to 3x. Do you really think he's taking this line with AQ? I'd usually need a very specific read on a reg at this level before I'd put AQ in his range for playing like this.
                I flat AQ often in the villians position pre and would check raise it as my standard play on this type of flop. Theres so many weaker aces in your range that will call 2 or 3 streets bluff catching because you think then villian has air or an openender etc. He's also not losing much value by checkraising as you will probably check back alot of your aces on the turn for pot controlling as your rarely going for 3 streets of value with A10/J type hands for example. Also if he checkraises here there is no real danger that you will ever 3bet him with worse.
                "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                Comment


                  #9
                  I'm not saying it wouldn't be correct or isn't done, just rarely done at these stakes. In fact I've never really seen anyone take that kind of line with TPGK before on this kind of board, I'm not saying it's impossible but it's definitely not how the average reg at 100nl thinks at least not where I play
                  "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I fold to the flop c/r and dont mind checking behind this flop alot. Sure 45 is an openender and there are a couple of gutshots but we're not getting much value out of anything here when we bet. Its ok to check tp sometimes!
                    Btw here's a hand I played yesterday against a 19/16 with a 3b % of 6 - same stakes. People do flat with AK oop and c/r flops. I was thinking his most likely hands were 22,A2s,big draws, gutshots and air. I just got lucky to flop top two but I like his play here. And he's not the only one doing it!



                    No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (3 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

                    SB ($100)
                    BB ($421.34)
                    Hero (Button) ($103)

                    Preflop: Hero is Button with A, J
                    Hero bets $3, 1 fold, BB calls $2

                    Flop: ($6.50) J, 2, A (2 players)
                    BB checks, Hero bets $4, BB raises $13, Hero calls $9

                    Turn: ($32.50) 2 (2 players)
                    BB bets $23, Hero calls $23

                    River: ($78.50) 7 (2 players)
                    BB bets $382.34 (All-In), Hero calls $64 (All-In)

                    Total pot: $206.50

                    Results:
                    Hero had A, J (two pair, Aces and Jacks).
                    BB had A, K (two pair, Aces and twos).
                    Outcome: Hero won $205.50
                    Last edited by BobSloane; 02-02-10, 21:41.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I think I fold somewhere in hand one. Flop if not, then the turn. I would like more info before these light call downs.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I fold turn without info

                        Comment


                          #13
                          What was the result ? Its an interesting hand the way it played out. Loads of people seem to think its great to raise these dry A-hi flops with air but I would have thought its rare to see them continue and unload the clip across three streets with a stone colder at these stakes.

                          Also I would pretty much always check back this flop with your hand.

                          Opr

                          Comment


                            #14
                            He had 9 high or something, no pair no draw at any stage anyway, but obviously that doesn't mean it was definitely right to call him down

                            I also don't really like checking back this kind of board because I'll c-bet it so wide, which means a) I want my value range to not just be AQ+ and B) He'll check call marginal hands alot on the flop, giving himself very difficult decisions on later streets and he calls the flop with basically any showdown value so I'd be missing value by not betting. Of course he also check calls with better or check raises which isn't fun but I prefer a bet to a check for a few reasons.
                            Last edited by Sledgejammer; 11-02-10, 18:37.
                            "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

                            Comment


                              #15
                              WP,NH

                              His bet sizing is interesting on the turn. I remember reading something in relation to if someone specifically has to type the bet as opposed to using the 2x,3x button etc they are more inclined to not be auto piloting a hand and thus its means the play has been thought about. Its cloud in the air type stuff as it could indicate a number of things but I do try and keep an eye on it in relation to certain players to see if they show any kind of specific pattern when their bets are typed etc.

                              In regards to the flop. Your never getting three streets of value from worse so betting the flop is not important for value. Its funny the only real merit I see in betting is if I think the guy would try to bluff raise.

                              Opr
                              Last edited by Opr; 11-02-10, 20:12.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                On the betsizing, it's likely a Partypoker issue. Party rakes as it goes, so on the flop instead of a ten dollar pot say, it'd display 9.50, and it's psb would be 9.50. So anyone who auto pots something will end up with weird numbers, I actually do it all the time when I'm raising a bet post flop because I'll usually press the pot button then use my mouse wheel to scroll to the size I want, so it'll usually be something weird like 14.73, so when I see weird numbers on Party for betsizes I don't really read into them.

                                On the flop, I'm not gonna go for three streets obviously, I just prefer to bet on the flop since checking back the flop really flips my hand up as being a decent one pair hand, like Ax or an underpair, betting keeps my range wide open, to be honest I think I'm c-betting that flop with 100% of my btn raising range and so checking back a narrow part of that range, the decentish showdown hands part, could be problematic. That's probably less important against a relative unknown though admittedly.
                                "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  The fact your betting 100% of these boards means it was much more likely he was b/r the flop in your OP. I am pretty sure betting your entire range on this board is highly exploitable.

                                  Checking does give away the strength of our hand to some degree but being IP with a small pot size and only having two more streets to play it matters very little. We can also just randomly add a strong hand if its against someone we feel the need to balance. Checking behind add pots control, induces bluff etc

                                  Basically in this spot I don't want to get c/r'd and have to play for stacks. I would much rather make a mistake in a small pot than have to play guessing games and make a mistake in a much larger pot.

                                  Opr

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