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Old 06-03-12, 01:47   #1
connie147
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Telling your holding.

I remember this coming up a couple of years ago when a player, who was all in pre-flop was asked how strong he was, he replied he had AA, villian called and hero turned over his AA and his hand was ruled dead because he told the truth about his holding.
I remember there was a big "furore" about this ruling at the time, and Im wondering if the ruling on this situation has been firmed up in the intervening years? Most of the "furore" was because people reckoned villian was angle shooting as he had KK and when he called the all-in, he knew he was good because if villian had AA, he could call floor and get his hand ruled dead, and if he didnt have AA, then he was big fav. And he did call for the floor as soon as he saw the heros AA. Anyway, thats a different matter. On to the current one:

This happened at a game the other night (not in the club, but one of my players was playing on the table so he was asking me about it tonight).

Board is reading 6-8-10-K-A with no flush. Player A bets, player b shoves all-in. Player A is contemplating his decision and starts talking to player b. Player b tells player A he has 7-9 and that he's not joking. Player A has a set and eventually calls the all-in. Player b turns over 7-9.
Is there a penalty due to player b for this? If so, what is the penalty.
If that old ruling was still in force, player b's 7-9 would be mucked as he told the truth about his holding and player A would be awarded the pot.

Im just interested in what is the up to date ruling on this type of situation.

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Old 06-03-12, 04:44   #2
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It could be construed as 'soft play' or collusion and thus the hand should be dead by rights.

What if on the other hand, guy A says i have 7-9, guy B folds his set, and then the 7-9 is tabled?
Definite soft play!
Would imagine the visa versa would also apply.
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Old 06-03-12, 05:17   #3
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I think the reason behind it was to prevent soft play. Players alerting others about their hand etc.
In the AA vrs KK hand. The player was abusing this to angle shoot. As with a lot of these spots, the angle shootign is more of an issue that the initial reason for the rule.

In the latest hand you posted. He is trying to get a caller, as he knows he has the best hand. I'd see that as speech play. He got a caller so I'd let him keep the pot. Then I'd advise him not to do that again, as it may look like collusion if the action turns out differently. Tell him next time it happens the hand is dead.

I dislike a blanket rule that it is always dead just because he announced it. As people make genuine mistakes and not everyone is aware of the rule.
On the other hand, if somebody was imo colluding or soft playing, then i'd rule it dead first time. Say in a 3 way pot, to protect a friend etc.
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Old 06-03-12, 12:06   #4
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It's a rule that had always annoyed me, how is it ok to say anything you like about your hand as long as its not the truth? Retarded imo

As for the 79 hand, the best hand wins the pot and the player may be warned/penalised after the hand depending on club rules
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Old 06-03-12, 13:33   #5
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A hand like this happened not so long ago at my game but they asked the ruling first.
The way I ruled it was if player a told player b his hand I would give him a penalty as I believe a winning hand should always get the pot.

They continued and he told him what he had as I was there I had pre warned player b I would not kill the hand but he called anyway and lost to the nuts.

I then gave player A a 1 round penalty which I thought to be fair and it hasn't happened since.
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Old 06-03-12, 13:35   #6
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I don't like the rule, but agree that there should be something in place to prevent softplay, i'm just not sure what it is.

In the example, "Board is reading 6-8-10-K-A with no flush and player B tells player A he has 7-9 and that he's not joking" so some think that as player B told the truth, his hand should be dead. If he says any of the following, would his hand he dead?

"I have a straight"
"I have the nuts*"
"I can beat a set of Aces"
"Whatever you have, i'm ahead of it. Unless we have the same hand"
"I have 7h9h" when he actually holds 7s9s

*QJ is clearly the nuts, but what if the player actually believed he had the nuts.

Similarly, what if the board read K-J-8-7-4 and he said he had an overpair and shows AA
What if it read J-8-5-4-2 and he said he's an overpair. Is his hand head if he has QQ-AA

Each scenario should be treated individually and decided upon whether it is speechplay or softplay imo
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Old 06-03-12, 14:44   #7
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Speech play is a huge part of the game. For me personnally anyway! The rule they brought into the world series this year was to do with this, you can say what you want but you can't give away the value of your hand. I think this awful, I think you should be allowed say what you want but you can't say your exact hand, you instead could say "I might have xx". I know it gives way to angle shooting and soft play but if we can't speak to each other then we might aswell stay at home and play online!
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Old 24-06-12, 22:41   #8
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tglynn
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Totally agree with that. I even had a situation on the EMOP
Player A goes all in
Players B calls ( with more chips behind )
Players C looks at one of his cards and say " i have one very good card" , he looks at the second one and says " but i will fold "

The issue is that player A wanted from me to give a penalty to player C because he said that

I told him what i am gonna tell you now - this is the advantage of live game. I think it is part of the game to talk and ask each other stuff. I may give a warning IF i suspect a softplay.

The AA vs KK situation ... ugly one , but i do not think AA should be ruled dead
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Old 25-06-12, 00:51   #9
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The situation in the op happened at the GJP Deepstack 500 side event in Drogheda. Villian was James Browning who had QQ pre and after hero 5 bet shoved Browning went to the speech play, hero didn't volunteer that he had AA rather he responded Yes when Browning asked him if he had AA. From memory Browning then asked for a ruling before calling - this was one of the worst rulings ever given in an Irish card room.
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Old 25-06-12, 01:06   #10
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I read somewhere but I can't remember where that once players are heads-up in a hand they can say anything in a hand including the actual truth of their hand and also turn their hand over if there can be no more action.

Personally I don't agree with these as the players involved may be friends resulting in soft play.

I still think there shouldn't be a blanket rule, yet every incident treated individually.
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Old 25-06-12, 01:14   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arazi View Post
The situation in the op happened at the GJP Deepstack 500 side event in Drogheda. Villian was James Browning who had QQ pre and after hero 5 bet shoved Browning went to the speech play, hero didn't volunteer that he had AA rather he responded Yes when Browning asked him if he had AA. From memory Browning then asked for a ruling before calling - this was one of the worst rulings ever given in an Irish card room.
I remember talking about this on the other side

Quote:
I think its James Browning. I played with him in the European Deepstack Championships. Was saying he was a good mate of Joe Beevers and other such stories.

If i remember correctly, he pulled off a disgusting angle shoot in the game. I could be wrong on this, But i think he raised, was raised all in and put to the test. he asked the other guy what he had. Your man says that he has Aces. Browning called and your man turns over Aces. Browning calls for a ruling and says your mans hand is dead because he declared what he had. I think the Aces hand was ruled dead. Not sure if rule JP was TD for this because i might have the facts wrong
This was GAB's reply

Quote:
lol, there is no wat that its james browning. ffs give him some credit. also - PAddy Tobin was the TD in question
Then reading through this thread where the OP was involved in the hand, i see this post from GAB over a year before he he posted the above

Quote:
villian is James Browning

apparently a commentator for sky poker or something similar.
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Old 25-06-12, 01:31   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arazi View Post
The situation in the op happened at the GJP Deepstack 500 side event in Drogheda. Villian was James Browning who had QQ pre and after hero 5 bet shoved Browning went to the speech play, hero didn't volunteer that he had AA rather he responded Yes when Browning asked him if he had AA. From memory Browning then asked for a ruling before calling - this was one of the worst rulings ever given in an Irish card room.
Pretty scummy by Villain.
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