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99 in BB-standard fold?

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    99 in BB-standard fold?

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 3.3 Tournament, 125/250 Blinds 30 Ante (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    CO (t3892)
    Button (t7549)
    SB (t7286)
    Hero (BB) (t17378)
    UTG (t10279)
    UTG+1 (t12852)
    MP1 (t4158)
    MP2 (t6511)
    MP3 (t6230)

    Hero's M: 26.94

    Preflop: Hero is BB with 9, 9
    4 folds, MP3 bets t500, CO raises to t3862 (All-In), 4 folds

    Total pot: t1645

    Results:
    CO didn't show
    Outcome: CO won t1645

    correct?

    #2
    I shove

    Comment


      #3
      with no notes or reads i shove here too altho i dont hate a fold in this spot.

      Comment


        #4
        I re shove with your stack
        airport, lol

        Comment


          #5
          dont fold. plenty worse pairs and Ax in CO's restealing range
          "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

          Comment


            #6
            Happy to shove there

            Comment


              #7
              Just a question to those saying shove - do we want the Mp3 guy in or not? If we shove, we give him the chance to stay in with his strong hands and fold his weaker ones. Were we to just call here sometimes I think we make his decision harder and he will more often make a mistake and stay in the pot.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Lplated View Post
                Just a question to those saying shove - do we want the Mp3 guy in or not? If we shove, we give him the chance to stay in with his strong hands and fold his weaker ones. Were we to just call here sometimes I think we make his decision harder and he will more often make a mistake and stay in the pot.
                we definitely want him to fold, a pair like 99s are getting increasingly weaker the more players in the hand, with only 500 invested and two shoves it should be a snap fold for him unless he has AA or KK
                airport, lol

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by eamonhonda View Post
                  we definitely want him to fold, a pair like 99s are getting increasingly weaker the more players in the hand, with only 500 invested and two shoves it should be a snap fold for him unless he has AA or KK
                  LOL.

                  Look at his stack. Regardless of action from us, he's not folding 1010+ or AQ IMO. I'm sure I wouldn't anyway.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                    LOL.

                    Look at his stack. Regardless of action from us, he's not folding 1010+ or AQ IMO. I'm sure I wouldn't anyway.
                    I def thought he'd call with with 1010+,AJs+ and with the chance I'm flippin beat vs. villain 2 already I thought I'd find a better spot ..
                    i super considered shoving, and in the past i wudda snap-shoved but been working on avoiding hi-variance spots and felt this was one such spot..??

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Lplated View Post
                      Just a question to those saying shove - do we want the Mp3 guy in or not? If we shove, we give him the chance to stay in with his strong hands and fold his weaker ones. Were we to just call here sometimes I think we make his decision harder and he will more often make a mistake and stay in the pot.
                      Happy to iso-shove and get it HU. 99 is just not strong enough to flat, we don't want MP to flat. It's doubtful he would anyway since he'd be investing c.2/3rds of his stack, he'd prob shove or fold. In saying that it's a $5 minefield so he could do anything...

                      99 doesn't play well enough to want to try and get it 3 handed. Happy days if our shove is called by 22-88 and sigh if he's got an overpair but I'd rather make him fold the 2 overs than flip for a bigger pot, with less equity, than necessary.

                      Originally posted by eamonhonda View Post
                      we definitely want him to fold, a pair like 99s are getting increasingly weaker the more players in the hand, with only 500 invested and two shoves it should be a snap fold for him unless he has AA or KK
                      Wow.

                      Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                      LOL.

                      Look at his stack. Regardless of action from us, he's not folding 1010+ or AQ IMO. I'm sure I wouldn't anyway.
                      This, widening/tightening the range with dynamics+villains.

                      Originally posted by Kie Diddy View Post
                      I def thought he'd call with with 1010+,AJs+ and with the chance I'm flippin beat vs. villain 2 already I thought I'd find a better spot ..
                      i super considered shoving, and in the past i wudda snap-shoved but been working on avoiding hi-variance spots and felt this was one such spot..??
                      There's no such thing as better spots, and this isn't actually a high variance spot imo. Just because we have no chance of winning it pre doesn't make it high variance, we're ahead of both ranges enough to get them in every time. We should be trying to get a big stack together to make a deep run at it and presumably this is a Stars minefield so avoiding the reshove and similar spots will only result in more min cashes+less cashes in the long run. Basically, and this is just my 2c, if you keep working on avoiding high variance spots then you keep making deposits.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Lplateds point is good. People always blindly vote against the hard way to play hands
                        Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                          Lplateds point is good. People always blindly vote against the hard way to play hands
                          Ah come on, you have the knowledge (and then some) to go in depth, use it FFS*. I rarely take the 'easy' option but this one seems standard to me. Shed some light...

                          I don't doubt that his point/opinion is good(I've read his posts) but to go against the standard play should be backed up imo. He asked a Q btw, not made a point.

                          tldr;
                          If you fold/flat, why?




                          *take out FFS if it offends and put in tren and pacman's kids.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            what do you have on these guys? are u just moved to the table with no stats, notes or history (even say watching the last few orbits?)

                            god it's such a situation dependent spot imo. like if the table was playing anyway lively i'd snap shove. if they were both on the nitty side i'd just fold.

                            you know i think this spot is rarely 'standard' imo, u'll nearly always have some more to go on even if you've only seen a few orbits.

                            'in a vacuum' as they say my gut is it would be +EVchips to shove but obv only marginally so for me (my approach in these 5 dollar things is just shove, win great, lose next game, whatever, cant be arsed with the low variance route, i want a stack but folding cant be that awfully bad either if you have nothing more to go on)

                            as for flatting vs reshoving, i'm interested in the point that LPlated made and tommygunne apparently backs up but i'm not so sure whether it matters here. i mean we just dont know how MP3 will view a flat. flats can be perceived as monsters and he could endup folding hands that might have stayed had we shoved. so it could work either way in our favour

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Caf View Post
                              Ah come on, you have the knowledge (and then some) to go in depth, use it FFS*. I rarely take the 'easy' option but this one seems standard to me. Shed some light...

                              I don't doubt that his point/opinion is good(I've read his posts) but to go against the standard play should be backed up imo. He asked a Q btw, not made a point.

                              tldr;
                              If you fold/flat, why?
                              Reason I asked it as a question is because its something I'm never quite sure about and tend to vary my actions for a whole host of reasons [some of which I'm not confident are valid].

                              Main reason I'm unsure here is that if we push, its happy days for MP who gets to call with all those big hands he likes, and he gets to fold with the rest.

                              My thinking is kind of like this - if we're happy to shove and get it all in - why not just call. Reason being that we create a 'dilema' for MPs lesser hands and we give him odds to come in behind, where he would have had an easy fold. Equally, if he would have called our push, then he will push [probably] over our call, but on the basis we were happy to get it in anyway, it now becomes a trivial call for us.

                              Hope thats not too garbled logic.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                In trying to figure the push/call decision, things that would effect my decision are - stage of tournie, closeness to bubble level, way MP3 is playing, way table is playing, fact that I'm chippie at table [in ops case], how I've been playing in recent orbits.

                                Of those, two things would stand out to me here - first is way MP3 is playing - he's min raised in a relatively late position - this seems to be becoming more standard online as blind levels rise - but if he has been raising like this a bit, or he has been showing down relatively weak hands after an action like this - I'm more inclined to keep him in.

                                Other factor that stands out to me here is the difference between co stack and MP3 stack - the difference is such that we can lose against CO and win against MP3 and still break even, and again for that reason think I want him in if I think he is weak.

                                I appreciate my original Q could be a 'how long is a piece of string' kind, but it is something that causes me difficutly and I dont think there is a clear or 'mostly right' answer.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  The OR min opens from a 25bb stack, and the CO shoves for 15bb. He should have a pretty big range for restealing from a 15bb stack over MP3 and should be shoving maybe QJs+, A9+, 22+ especially if MP3's been active and shown propensity to fold. I'm never fold 99 in the BB here, but i think us flatting for ~60% of the OR's stack looks pretty strong and should send out alarm bells and i don't think he makes too many crazy calls or spaz moves with hands we're ahead of. There's a lot of specifics that we don't know aswel which would change our thinking

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Lplated View Post
                                    Reason I asked it as a question is because its something I'm never quite sure about and tend to vary my actions for a whole host of reasons [some of which I'm not confident are valid].

                                    Main reason I'm unsure here is that if we push, its happy days for MP who gets to call with all those big hands he likes, and he gets to fold with the rest.

                                    My thinking is kind of like this - if we're happy to shove and get it all in - why not just call. Reason being that we create a 'dilema' for MPs lesser hands and we give him odds to come in behind, where he would have had an easy fold. Equally, if he would have called our push, then he will push [probably] over our call, but on the basis we were happy to get it in anyway, it now becomes a trivial call for us.

                                    Hope thats not too garbled logic.
                                    Pretty Good logic and nice to see a different viewpoint to the standard.
                                    But I think the reason I couldn't do this though is because we are giving the OR a massive price to see three cards with his (potential)bag of spanners if we cold call.
                                    99 doesn't flop all that well three handed in my experience. It's over complicating the hand and we are OOP on the flop.What if it comes Q-10-2 or even Q-7-2.


                                    OP you did what I would do here but it's relatively thin between fold and shove.

                                    Comment

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