Irish Poker Boards
Register Arcade FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Irish Poker Boards > Poker > Poker Theory, Strategy and Rulings > Omaha, Stud and Other Variants
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-01-11, 14:52   #1
BlindLimper
Member
 
BlindLimper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Dublin / Donegal
Posts: 314
3betting IP and OOP

Ive switched to playin plo as my main game recently and im still trying to get to grips with what type hands people are 3betting in position and out of position. Can people who have experience in playing plo give some ranges for the following scenarios (assume 100bb effective stacks)

1)Folded to CO who opens to 3bb
We are on BTN and SB and BB both are 100bb deep, What range of hands would you consider 3betting here?

2)Folded to BTN who opens to 3bb
SB Folds
We are in BB, What range of hands would you consider 3betting here.

Once someone opens they very rarely fold to a 3bet, im assuming that we should be 3betting hands only for value and also hands that can make the nuts like AsKxJxTs rather than a hand like QQJ9 or something similar. I know its a kind of general question but im just trying to get a feel for what people are 3betting. Some regs might have a 3bet stat of 13% while other might only have a 3bet of 2% where they are basically only 3betting AAxx.

Do you 3bet 89TJ or 9TJQ or any smaller rundowns and are how are you playing the hand from there if you get 4bet?
BlindLimper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-11, 15:09   #2
DeadParrot
Grand High Wizard
 
DeadParrot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 18,710
a lot of micro and small stakes regs will 3 bet AAxx only no matter about position.

I'd 3bet AAxx OOP only if I can get a large % of my stack in the middle before the flop.

IP, my rand is much much wider, depending on table dyanamics of course.
Generally double suited connecters, paired connecters (like QQJ9)
I'm fairly happy getting 6789ds in the middle preflop depending on villians' range's
__________________
People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
Do you wish to be as happy as me? Be the envy of all your friends, more attractive to the opposite sex, successful in life
https://initiativeq.com/invite/rMlZqFhsQ
DeadParrot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-11, 20:33   #3
Tremolo1
Member
 
Tremolo1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 460
I was replying to this post the other day and found myself writing and writing so i decided to write a (long) strategy post on 3b'ing in PLO. I have been putting a lot of time and effort into my PLO game lately and hopefully some of you will find this helpful.

A couple of factors to think about when 3b'ing:

1) Hand Strength
2) Villain's tendencies
3) Position
4) Balance, getting 4b and stack sizes

1) When most people think about hand strength when it comes to 3b’ing in PLO they generally think about AAxx, KQJTds and other premium rundowns etc. But what we must also consider when talking about hand strength for 3b'ing is how well our hand plays against a certain opponents opening ranges (their PFR) and also how well our hand plays against that players continuing range. For example, if a player in the CO is raising 30-40% we can start to widen our value 3b range. Using Pro Poker Tools (PLO's equivalent to pokerstove) we can see how certain hands do against certain opening ranges and adjust accordingly. The preflop equities in PLO are obviously a lot closer than NLHE; therefore, there is a lot less preflop domination in PLO than NLHE. Although this is true, we can still widen our value 3b range by selecting hands that flop more equity more frequently and also backdoor lots of equity against these certain opening ranges. This is taking in the assumption that this player will never fold to a 3b of course, which is usually the case.

A huge factor in determining on whether to 3b or not is how well a hand plays in relation to the number of players in the pot, HU or multiway. As more players enter the pot the stronger our hand must be preflop, this goes without saying as the more combinations of hands there are the more likely someone will hold the nuts. Generally hands that don't play well MW play well HU (premiums obviously being the exception). You usually will be folding or 3b'ing these hands that play well HU for example hands like KJ89ss, QT97ss, 8964ds etc. all play well HU. The poorer our opponents are the wider I will 3b if I can get HU with them.

"The more players in the pot, the less poker you play" a quote from Jeff Hwang’s book which I think is rather applicable here.

An example of when not to 3b MW: We hold KK27ss OTB and there is a raise and two calls, action to us. I wouldn’t advise 3b’ing here as we will rarely win at showdown unless we improve, we rarely flop a great equity edge, but, when we do flop top set we want it to be MW so we can extract as much value as possible with what probably is a rather big equity edge.

2) One of the main things to consider when 3b'ing is obviously the villain's tendencies. Your question should not be which hands I should 3b with, instead it should of been who can I 3b more profitably and then you can go about selecting which hands to do that with. For example, if I am to the left of a 22/14 reg who plays very fit or fold post flop and rarely 4b's, I will 3b this guy all day every day and expect a huge return in the long run. Knowing your villain's tendencies both pre and post flop will make deciding whether to 3b or not and what range of hands to 3b a whole lot easier. Remember to play the player. This is where note taking becomes extremely useful; take notes on not only how players play in 3b pots but also how they play on certain textures. For example, "capable of bluff raising on paired boards", "likes to float low connected flops" etc.

3) Position is very important in PLO, especially concerning 3b's. As we move closer to the BTN the wider your 3b range should be as it is the most profitable position to play from. As the old saying goes we want to play bigger pots IP and smaller pots OOP. By 3b'ing IP we maximise our posititional advantage and can isolate. OOP, especially against good players, you should tighten your 3b range extremely and choose good hand selection. Position is the most profitable tool in PLO, so use it!!

4) Balance also plays a part in 3b'ing in PLO, maybe not as much in NLHE but it still applies. Say we raise OTB and a tight reg 3b's us from the BB, he has a 3b% of 3.5 and we have a note on him saying he only 3b's AAxx. Here the villain's hand is face up and he is OOP, a hugely profitable situation for us which we can call with pretty much our entire range and can almost play perfect post flop poker. This is a very basic example, however, it highlights the importance of a well-balanced 3b range, it even more so applies in 4b'ing, especially as you get deeper.

Another thing to take into consideration when 3b'ing is whether you can call a 4b. Generally, when a player 4b's they have AAxx so it is very important to realise your hands equity against AAxx and how well our hand flops against AAxx (Use PPT's). I sometimes avoid 3b'ing Axxx hands as I hate to 3b/f in PLO, as the Ace in these hands kills our equity so we can never call 4b’s, the same applies for pairs.

When 3b'ing you must also take into account stack sizes, generally as stacks get shorter the less I will 3b hands like 5678ds and other rundowns as I don’t want to open up good spots for the short stacks to shove. In these spots it is better to flat with these hands even though we are only at a slight equitable disadvantage. I will still 3b high cards such as AKJ9ds for value depending on the player. As stacks get deeper I will tighten my 3b range OOP

I just decided to touch on some basic ideas obviously there are a few more that could be added like game flow and dynamic etc.
Tremolo1 is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Thanks From:
Old 11-01-11, 01:11   #4
BlindLimper
Member
 
BlindLimper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Dublin / Donegal
Posts: 314
Good post. Im interested in the point you made below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tremolo1 View Post
You usually will be folding or 3b'ing these hands that play well HU for example hands like KJ89ss, QT97ss, 8964ds etc. all play well HU. The poorer our opponents are the wider I will 3b if I can get HU with them.
Are you saying for the hands you mentioned above that if it is likely to go HU then 3betting> Folding>Calling?
Do you thing its a leak to just call QT97ss or KJ89ss on the BTN to a MP or CO raise?
BlindLimper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-11, 17:29   #5
Tremolo1
Member
 
Tremolo1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindLimper View Post

Are you saying for the hands you mentioned above that if it is likely to go HU then 3betting> Folding>Calling?
Do you thing its a leak to just call QT97ss or KJ89ss on the BTN to a MP or CO raise?
No this is a mistake, I meant to say that MW you would fold these hands but HU they become much more profitable to play and I would 3b most of the time. I feel these hands are too gappy to play MW and many times our FD will be dominated, however, there are some situations where i will flat these hands MW like if a fish is opening wide and I will not be able to thin the field. Perhaps the examplse i suggested weren't the best but hands like KQ98ss, JT86ds, J795ds etc etc. all play significantly better in 3b hu pots than in single raised ones.

No it is probably not a leak to flat these hands but it is definatley more profitable to 3b these hands. It is always best to be the aggressor in PLO. You will be suprised the amount of times a player will c/f to your CB OTT (and this will pretty much include all Axx flops as most people think you have AAxx when you 3b), creating a very profitable situation for you. This is all player dependent of course.
Tremolo1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-11, 17:49   #6
Valor
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 731
Position is easily the most important factor...IP you can get away with 3 betting a ridiculous amount

To answer your specific questions
#1 a ton of suited big cards, smaller connected cards, I mean it really depends on the player, but you should be 3 betting almost all Aces combos to strengthen your range and you can go as weak as stuff like 7584 ss and Q978 ss type stuff

#2 basically only for value - big cards - with a small amount of lower rundowns usually double suited to provide coverage for those boards
Valor is offline   Reply With Quote
3 Thanks From:
Reply

  Irish Poker Boards > Poker > Poker Theory, Strategy and Rulings > Omaha, Stud and Other Variants

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 03:49.